Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

[anony_mouse]

So your trying to compare an and x86 processor with a 28 nm ARM v8 utilizing a Cyclone micro-architecture,
lol, ok you go do that.

Please could you explain? Maybe we're talking about different things because I don't understand your conclusions. I'm talking about whether 64 bit code runs faster than 32 bit code, which it sometimes does, and sometimes it doesn't, depending on the code. Operations which benefit include addressing more than 4GB of memory (or memory mapped files larger than 4GB), and mathematical operations requiring greater than 32 bit precision. Code that does not require those things will typically run slightly more slowly, as for example, 64 bit code and data size is typically larger as the "natural" unit of data is twice as long. This means that code and data take longer to read and write to and from memory, and that caching will be less efficient. (Note: this is comparing 64 and 32 bit code running on a processor which fully supports 64 and 32 bit modes of operation. It is not comparing the A7 chip with previous generations - the A7 chip is much more powerful regardless of the 64 bit capability).

The comparison with the introduction of amd64 is quite instructive, I think. There were many benchmarks done comparing 64 bit applications running on a 64 bit OS with equivalent 32 bit apps on a 32 bit OS. The benefits and costs of 64 bit operation over 32 bit operation are likely to be fairly similar between processor architectures, so why wouldn't this be useful?

BTW, to be clear I think it's good that Apple are moving to a 64 bit platform. It will certainly bring worthwhile benefits in the medium term. However I don't believe the move to 64 bits (in itself) brings significant benefits today for most applications or to most people. I wouldn't consider it an advantage if I was choosing a new phone today. It may be an advantage in a few years time, and it may be that by starting the transition earlier, Apple gain some advantage. Only time will tell.

 

[FFR]

Please could you explain? Maybe we're talking about different things because I don't understand your conclusions. I'm talking about whether 64 bit code runs faster than 32 bit code, which it sometimes does, and sometimes it doesn't, depending on the code. Operations which benefit include addressing more than 4GB of memory (or memory mapped files larger than 4GB), and mathematical operations requiring greater than 32 bit precision. Code that does not require those things will typically run slightly more slowly, as for example, 64 bit code and data size is typically larger as the "natural" unit of data is twice as long. This means that code and data take longer to read and write to and from memory, and that caching will be less efficient. (Note: this is comparing 64 and 32 bit code running on a processor which fully supports 64 and 32 bit modes of operation. It is not comparing the A7 chip with previous generations - the A7 chip is much more powerful regardless of the 64 bit capability).

The comparison with the introduction of amd64 is quite instructive, I think. There were many benchmarks done comparing 64 bit applications running on a 64 bit OS with equivalent 32 bit apps on a 32 bit OS. The benefits and costs of 64 bit operation over 32 bit operation are likely to be fairly similar between processor architectures, so why wouldn't this be useful?

Yes your only focusing on one gain, raw possessing power.

What you and everybody else that touts the 4gb ram number are trying to utilize misdirection to downplay the significance of apples 64 bit solution; efficiency is the name of apples game not raw power .

The 5s is 7.6mm with a 4.0 inch screen and 112 grams and a 1570 mah battery; Volumetrically speaking, no phone comes close to touching the 5s in terms of raw power or battery efficiency, none. That is directly due to apples vertically integrated 64 bit ecosystem.
Having said that, the a7 is the cornerstone for Touch ID, and with iOS 8 and metal, it will unleash the beast. All you have to do is wait and see :beer:

 

[the_tech_eater]

Thank you for the friendly post. I'm afraid I am right. 64 bit computing is faster, when there is more than 32 bits of data to process, or more than 32 bits of memory to address. When there isn't, it may actually be slower as there's more data to be moved around the system. Benchmarks from the introduction of amd64 processors in PCs are well worth looking at to get an idea of the likely impact.

It's *probably* a good idea for smart phones to slowly move to 64 bit architectures, but it will not be a dramatic improvement in most cases. The A7 is a very fast chip, but that is primarily because it uses a very fast new ARM core, not because it uses a 64 bit architecture.

This is an interesting area. Try reading some books on CPU architecture if you're interested in it.

I couldn't care less about all these theories! You guys are completely and totally trying to get around the fact that the A7 is the most powerful 1.3 ghz chip ever produced, and it's faster than most 2.6 ghz chips! You can come out with all your theories all day, but you are ignoring the fact that the worlds first mobile 64bit processor powers one of the fastest phones on the market, and is faster than phones with double the specs.

 

[finn5975]

I'm confused. Did the OP create an unnecessary thread to state he/she is leaving for android, or was he looking for help on his computer science quiz on Thursday. Good lord.

 

[FFR]

I couldn't care less about all these theories! You guys are completely and totally trying to get around the fact that the A7 is the most powerful 1.3 ghz chip ever produced, and it's faster than most 2.6 ghz chips! You can come out with all your theories all day, but you are ignoring the fact that the worlds first mobile 64bit processor powers one of the fastest phones on the market, and is faster the phones with double the specs.

Straight to the point .

 

[zocster]

I'm confused. Did the OP create an unnecessary thread to state he/she is leaving for android, or was he looking for help on his computer science quiz on Thursday. Good lord.

I thought there's a sticky for people switching devices?

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[finn5975]

I thought there's a sticky for people switching devices?

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Yep there is. Getting folks to use it however lol..


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[Ledsteplin]

 

[anony_mouse]

Yes your only focusing on one gain, raw possessing power.

I'm discussing the merits of 64 bit computing on mobile devices, which was the subject of some debate and some inaccurate claims above. What are you doing?

What you and everybody else that touts the 4gb ram number are trying to utilize misdirection to downplay the significance of apples 64 bit solution; efficiency is the name of apples game not raw power .

I have no idea what you are talking about. But I will try to respond anyway. What am I (and everybody else) trying to misdirect you from? The 4GB RAM point is genuine, but it's not the only point I made. Can I politely ask if you understood the other points, about 64 bit arithmetic and memory mapped files? I'm very confused as to whether you think the 64 bit aspect of the A7 chip is significant or not. I assume you do as you mention it twice in this post alone.

The 5s is 7.6mm with a 4.0 inch screen and 112 grams and a 1570 mah battery; Volumetrically speaking, no phone comes close to touching the 5s in terms of raw power or battery efficiency, none. That is directly due to apples vertically integrated 64 bit ecosystem.

The reason that the iPhone 5S is indeed probably the most powerful by volume is that it has a smaller screen than other high end phones. But I wasn't debating power per cubic centimeter (it's an interesting metric to judge devices by!) or battery efficiency. I was debating the benefits and costs of 64 bit computing in a small device. You will also note that I said some quite nice things about the A7 chip, which is certainly very powerful. Whether it's more powerful than the best Qualcomm, NVidia, MediaTek, etc have to offer, I don't know, and I don't think anyone is really able to test given the restricted access to the A7 chip.

Having said that, the a7 is the cornerstone for Touch ID, and with iOS 8 and metal, it will unleash the beast. All you have to do is wait and see :beer:

I hope that doesn't mean my iPad 3 with its sad little dual core 32 bit processor will get even slower with iOS8.

 

[anony_mouse]

I couldn't care less about all these theories!

You can call them theories if you like. I would call them knowledge and experience of microprocessor architectures.

You guys are completely and totally trying to get around the fact that the A7 is the most powerful 1.3 ghz chip ever produced, and it's faster than most 2.6 ghz chips!

Please can you point me to the post and sentence where I tried to do that? The A7 chip is certainly very powerful and I don't believe I have ever claimed otherwise. My points were about the benefits and costs of 64 bit processing in a mobile device.
BTW, do you have some source for your claim that it's the most powerful 1.3GHz chip ever produced, and also what definition of "powerful" you are using? I'd be genuinely interested to see some figures backed by evidence of the relative performance of today's state of the art chipsets.

You can come out with all your theories all day, but you are ignoring the fact that the worlds first mobile 64bit processor powers one of the fastest phones on the market, and is faster than phones with double the specs.

I discussed your claim about "theories" above. I don't believe I was ignoring the (impressive) merits of the A7 chip. I'm going to ignore your claim that the 5S is faster than phones with double the specs as it doesn't seem to make any logical sense whatsoever.

 

[natasftw]

Volumetrically speaking, no phone comes close to touching the 5s in terms of raw power or battery efficiency, none. That is directly due to apples vertically integrated 64 bit ecosystem.

How can you make such a claim? This would be reasonable if Apple hadn't historically had the same results with a 32-bit architecture. The problem with your argument: they DID have a historical advantage in this area. If the advantage existed prior to the move to 64-bit, it's unreasonable to claim the advantage is "directly due" to something that DIDN'T EXIST when they started having the advantage.

It's not that we're focusing on one thing. It's that YOU are. You're ignoring where a great deal of the gain is coming from because you heard a buzz word. That is the very definition of a marketing success.

I couldn't care less about all these theories! You guys are completely and totally trying to get around the fact that the A7 is the most powerful 1.3 ghz chip ever produced, and it's faster than most 2.6 ghz chips! You can come out with all your theories all day, but you are ignoring the fact that the worlds first mobile 64bit processor powers one of the fastest phones on the market, and is faster than phones with double the specs.

The point is going completely over your head. We aren't suggesting the A7 chip isn't a powerful chip. In fact, we've said so throughout this thread. You're arguing a futile point. Originally, I pointed out the emphasis Apple is putting on the processor being 64-bit is a marketing gimmick due to the marginal gains resulting from the 64-bit architecture versus the 32-bit architecture. I'm an Apple user. I like their devices. I'm not advocating for another device over their device. I was pointing out that someone was being incredibly condescending to the OP while not having a clue what they were talking about. We aren't ignoring the 64-bit processor powers one of the fastest phones on the market. We're pointing out this would STILL be true if the A7 was a 32-bit device. The gains the A7 made by going to a 64-bit design over a 32-bit design are marginal. I'm not sure how I can explain this in an easier way.

Let's say we could define most powerful processor on a scale from 1 to 100. 92 is a better score than 90. It's a GREAT score. But, that doesn't mean that something that increased the processor from 90 to 92 is paramount to the device. Pointing out that change didn't make a significant difference doesn't mean that the device is terrible now at 92. It just means you're putting far too much emphasis into something that is actually a small piece of the big picture.

 

[HAWK]

You guys do realize there is no winner in this back and forth debate... Android people like android and apple people like apple. They are both powerful phones. With how smart some of these responses are we could be putting that brilliance to good use by helping the people who need help with their questions... Or just getting along. This bitterness is getting old guys and I'm sure you will agree with me.


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[natasftw]

You guys do realize there is no winner in this back and forth debate... Android people like android and apple people like apple. They are both powerful phones. With how smart some of these responses are we could be putting that brilliance to good use by helping the people who need help with their questions... Or just getting along. This bitterness is getting old guys and I'm sure you will agree with me.


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I'd agree with you. Except, what you said has nothing to do with the conversation. Nobody else is talking about Apple vs Android.

 

[HAWK]

I'd agree with you. Except, what you said has nothing to do with the conversation. Nobody else is talking about Apple vs Android.

Sorry apple vs the world... Regardless point was clear of what I was trying to say.


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[anony_mouse]

Sorry apple vs the world... Regardless point was clear of what I was trying to say.

That is still entirely irrelevant to the discussion about 64 bit computing. Why is it that some people here see ANY discussion as Apple v the world?

Natasftw summarises things well in post #91. Can I suggest anyone still until unclear on what this is about reads that?

 

[natasftw]

Sorry apple vs the world... Regardless point was clear of what I was trying to say.


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It sounds like you're making an incorrect assumption. The only way this post makes sense is if you've assumed it's only possible to notice marketing gimmicks if you dislike the device. That's not a fair assumption. I prefer Apple devices. In terms of Apple products, I have the MBP, iMac, iPhone, and AppleTV. I like Apple products. This isn't a comparison of anything outside of Apple.

This started when I pointed out the A7 being a 64-bit processor offered little in the means of performance. Here was that post:

You are comparing apples to oranges.
Every complaint I have ever heard about iOS was based on an old iOS (you), or it was operator error (maybe you again).

Once you have to actually work for a living, you dont have all day to sit around and customize your phone.

Apple is unmatched for art and music.....also 64 bit processing.

Good luck with your downgrade.

That post was incredibly condescending and directly made the claim the OP would need "luck" to deal with downgrading from a 64-bit processor to a 32-bit processor. There are a LOT of advantages the iPhone has over the device the OP wants instead. The A7 using 64-bit architecture instead of 32-bit offers a negligible advantage. This poster is the reason so many people have disdain for Apple fans. He has absolutely NO clue what he's taking about, regurgitates marketing, and talks down to others that don't agree. After pointing that out, a group of you have taken offense to me pointing that out to him. Several have shown they don't understand what 64-bit processing actually provides. They've done so while attempting to suggest they have more knowledge in the topic.

You've come in and either haven't read the conversation or simply don't understand it. The question in this current conversation has never been "is Apple better than another product?" It's a question as to whether or not 64-bit processing is the reason Apple's device IS better than the competitor's device. I don't see any bitterness between you and I. I don't see us not getting along. It's possible to disagree without being bitter. It's possible to get along while disagreeing. I'm not sure why you've equated disagreeing with bitterness and not getting along. I'd suggest you look into your own interactions and focus on whatever it is that makes you see this equality and work to correct that. You'll likely be happier.

 

[HAWK]

Ok the topic is irrelevant... My point was let's stop the arguing and move on to doing what the forum is for. Helping people and getting along.


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[FFR]

I'm discussing the merits merit of 64 bit computing on mobile devices, which was the subject of some debate and some inaccurate claims above. What are you doing?

Correcting you.
you were discussing only one merit, raw processing power and how 64 bit processors are useless without 4gb.

Hogwash.

I have no idea what you are talking about. But I will try to respond anyway. What am I (and everybody else) trying to misdirect you from? The 4GB RAM point is genuine, but it's not the only point I made. Can I politely ask if you understood the other points, about 64 bit arithmetic and memory mapped files? I'm very confused as to whether you think the 64 bit aspect of the A7 chip is significant or not. I assume you do as you mention it twice in this post alone.

In regards to 64 bit from a memory Addressibility standpoint, Apple won't have to do anything until iOS 9 at the earliest.

What about the ISA?

Amd's 64 bit x86 came with an extension of the old isa, whereas apple has introduced two entirely new concurrent ISA's called A32 and A64, both ISAs can be supported by a single microprocessor design featuring two architectural states, the AArch32 and AArch64, one of the greatest benefits of the cyclone.

I keep mentioning apples 64bit ecosystem because all first party apps on iPhone 5s are already compiled for AArch64, I only mention this because at boot the iPhone 5s does not have a single AArch32 process running; in other words the 5s already runs a native 64 bit environment and its only going to get better with iOS 8 and metal. This is truly apple's 64bit vertically integrated advantage that no other company can offer, not google, not Microsoft, not even Qualcomm.

What about general purpose registrars?

In regards to raw processing power, AMD's doubling of the register space showed a 10% increase in performance, thats not nothing or minimal, the difference offcource between x86 and the cyclone are the entirely new ISAs, so in layman terms x86<a7.

ARMv7 had 15 general purpose registers compared to 31 that are each 64-bits wide for the cyclone. Because all 31 registers are accessible at all times, this decreases register pressure and directly impacts performance.

Really, really embarrassing for you when someone actually knows what they are talking about, its not just theoretical for me.

Apple also added some new cryptographic instructions for hardware acceleration of AES and SHA1/SHA256 algorithms with the a7 that increases performance.

I lost count at how many ways apple increased performance going from a6 to a7, you can count it if you like but it is much more than the memory
What other points did you make?

The reason that the iPhone 5S is indeed probably the most powerful by volume is that it has a smaller screen than other high end phones.

I see so the only reason it is powerful to you, is because of its screen.
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:hahaahhaaahaaahha:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: credibilty, lost. Please go on.
you made my day. Thank you. :yes:

But I wasn't debating power per cubic centimeter (it's an interesting metric to judge devices by!) or battery efficiency. I was debating the benefits and costs of 64 bit computing in a small device.

Its very telling you don't see battery efficiency and the power to volume ratio of the iPhone as a benefit and direct result of the a7.

Ahh cost is the issue. I understand now. .

Whether it's more powerful than the best Qualcomm, NVidia, MediaTek, etc have to offer, I don't know, and I don't think anyone is really able to test given the restricted access to the A7 chip.

So if you don't know, why spread misinformation and fud?

I know, it is more powerful than the rest.

I have no idea why you keep mentioning restricted?
will apple send the swat to your house?
unbelievable.

and I don't think anyone is really able to test given the restricted access to the A7 chip.

Again with the restriction.
your just making up stuff at this point.

I hope that doesn't mean my iPad 3 with its sad little dual core 32 bit processor will get even slower with iOS8.

no it will get slower with iOS 9.
apple usually supports products for three years, some like the 4s are still supported.

 

[FFR]

How can you make such a claim? This would be reasonable if Apple hadn't historically had the same results with a 32-bit architecture. The problem with your argument: they DID have a historical advantage in this area. If the advantage existed prior to the move to 64-bit, it's unreasonable to claim the advantage is "directly due" to something that DIDN'T EXIST when they started having the advantage.

It's not that we're focusing on one thing. It's that YOU are. You're ignoring where a great deal of the gain is coming from because you heard a buzz word. That is the very definition of a marketing success.



The point is going completely over your head. We aren't suggesting the A7 chip isn't a powerful chip. In fact, we've said so throughout this thread. You're arguing a futile point. Originally, I pointed out the emphasis Apple is putting on the processor being 64-bit is a marketing gimmick due to the marginal gains resulting from the 64-bit architecture versus the 32-bit architecture. I'm an Apple user. I like their devices. I'm not advocating for another device over their device. I was pointing out that someone was being incredibly condescending to the OP while not having a clue what they were talking about. We aren't ignoring the 64-bit processor powers one of the fastest phones on the market. We're pointing out this would STILL be true if the A7 was a 32-bit device. The gains the A7 made by going to a 64-bit design over a 32-bit design are marginal. I'm not sure how I can explain this in an easier way.

Let's say we could define most powerful processor on a scale from 1 to 100. 92 is a better score than 90. It's a GREAT score. But, that doesn't mean that something that increased the processor from 90 to 92 is paramount to the device. Pointing out that change didn't make a significant difference doesn't mean that the device is terrible now at 92. It just means you're putting far too much emphasis into something that is actually a small piece of the big picture.

I can and do make the claim because I have more knowelge than you.
Here:


One more:



The only futility here is anyone discrediting the merits of apples 64 bit vertically integrated advantage.

Good Day:raised-eyebrow:

 

[anon4757448]

You all definitely have a lot to say...


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