1. surur's Avatar
    I'm basically saying basic features which they intended to include were cut to meet the deadline, but will be added later.

    If we were to use the old car analogy, I'm not saying the breaks is faulty and has not been tested, but that they shipped the car without the back seat because the upholsterer was not finished with it yet, but will have people come in in a months time to finish their car.

    Surur
    06-27-2007 06:05 PM
  2. rsnadel's Avatar
    From what I've read and heard, that thinking appears to be more appropriately directed to AppleTV (which was updated less than a month after release) than the iPhone.
    06-27-2007 06:18 PM
  3. archie's Avatar
    I'm basically saying basic features which they intended to include were cut to meet the deadline, but will be added later.
    Apple had completely established expectations. When the iPhone is released, the iPhone will deliver above and beyond these expectations.
    06-27-2007 06:18 PM
  4. surur's Avatar
    As long as you dont expect to take a video of your toddler going down the slide. And you better not be expecting to send this clip via MMS to granny.

    Surur
    06-27-2007 06:24 PM
  5. Scott R's Avatar
    These features are found in most $0 phones, like MMS and Video recording, and it lacks obvious features like A2DP found in most modern smartphones.
    I can make a decent sized list of things I don't like about the iPhone or are missing that I think shouldn't be (and I'll probably do so later), but I think you're nitpicking with the examples you've provided...

    MMS: This is a phone capable of rich email, presumably with the ability to attach photos to emails. As a long-time Treo user, I've never wished to use MMS, but have sometimes done so simply because Palm did a poor job of tying the camera app to email (or maybe it's because I'm using Snappermail because I hated Versamail). Bottom line: MMS is old-school and usually costs you extra, so if the integration of the camera app and the email app is good, this is the better approach, IMO.

    Video recording: It's surprising if it's missing, but I imagine they'll add it later. But here's the important thing: My Treo 700p takes awful video clips and most of the other smartphones are in the same boat. If they're going to do it poorly, I won't miss it. It's sad in this day and age that we have to put up with such poor quality cameras on such expensive phones. That said, I've seen some sample photos from the iPhone and they look better than most cameraphones I've seen. I'll take a decent camera with no video capability over a ****-poor camera with ****-poor video recording capability. YMMV.

    A2DP: Today this is a novelty feature, IMO. There aren't very many AD2P headphones out on the market and the ones that are there are pricey. And (correct me if I'm wrong), but can A2DP provide quality as good as wired headphones? It's one thing to put up with poorer quality for a Bluetooth headset you're using for a phone conversation, but for music listening you're going to want quality audio. Personally, I'd rather have a phone with a 3.5" jack and no A2DP than one with a 2.5" jack (or one that requires a USB-to-3.5" adaptor) that has A2DP. A2DP may turn out to be a critical feature at some point, but with the limited number of A2DP headphones, that day isn't today. That said, I've read that the iPhone's 3.5" jack is recessed and may require an adaptor for some headphones which would somewhat negate its value over a phone with just a 2.5" jack or USB port.
    06-27-2007 06:25 PM
  6. beachtrader's Avatar
    You dont consider video recording from the camera and MMS basic? The video recording especially is a very very standard feature. I'm sure many people wont miss it, but I believe the majority will.

    Surur
    No, I don't. How often do you need video recording? What's the true quality of this other than a gizdet?

    The Treo 700wx on Sprint doesn't do MMS, so this product was released too early?
    06-27-2007 06:28 PM
  7. surur's Avatar
    I chose those features because they did not look like design decisions to me, but actual omissions, which the consumer would be expecting. Especially video recording, no matter how crappy, is an often used feature, which would quickly be missed.

    Surur
    06-27-2007 06:32 PM
  8. surur's Avatar
    No, I don't. How often do you need video recording? What's the true quality of this other than a gizdet?
    You must not have children then. Being able to record the moment spontaneously and show to your SO is a very basic activity these days, and a feature I use regularly..

    The Treo 700wx on Sprint doesn't do MMS, so this product was released too early?
    Isn't that a Sprint PDA/Phone thing?

    Surur
    06-27-2007 06:34 PM
  9. Malatesta's Avatar
    Forget about MMS/Video for a second...

    - No select, copy, paste?
    - No search contacts?

    Those seem like two pretty big holes (which, granted can be fixed easily enough). If you have a lot of contacts that sure seems to be an annoyance. WM smartphones don't have cut/copy/paste either but their excuse was no touch screen, not sure why the iPhone left that out. Seems quite simple.

    As far as A2DP, you just know Apple would never want you to use anyone else's headset, so they'd just sell you theirs for $200 (regular BT is $120), so having not many headsets is not an excuse. Obscurity is not either since if anyone, Apple could make that mainstream just like Push email. I think it was probably a quailty issue.
    06-27-2007 06:41 PM
  10. Malatesta's Avatar
    Isn't that a Sprint PDA/Phone thing?

    Surur
    Yeah, the Verizon version has it, for some reason Sprint omits it from their devices (probably because they have a lousy MMS errr..."PictureMail" system). In fact, we just use the Verizon .cab to do MMS on all Sprint PPC devices. No biggy though hardly convienent for the newbie.
    06-27-2007 06:43 PM
  11. oalvarez's Avatar
    . If anyone is release half baked crap it's Palm - what do we pay for a new color, couple more Mbs and the removal of an antenna? Whose are the real suckers here?

    Dunc
    ding ding ding ding ding...we have a winner folks!

    no, they did not release it early....if they did, who cares? let the market dictate what it is that they are missing. if you don't like it, don't buy it. if they feel a need to improve it they will. no biggie
    06-27-2007 06:43 PM
  12. beachtrader's Avatar
    You must not have children then. Being able to record the moment spontaneously and show to your SO is a very basic activity these days, and a feature I use regularly..



    Isn't that a Sprint PDA/Phone thing?

    Surur
    Like I said-- "a feature I use" -- for you it's important, but for the rest they can make their own decision. And in two days the public will speak with their wallet one way or another.

    As for the Sprint PDA Treo 700wx MMS, you've blasted ATT and Edge for its problems because it is slow so this would be exactly the same according to your rules. Therefore the Treo 700wx is an unfinished product which shouldn't have been released. (and this was an upgrade the problematic 700w).
    06-27-2007 06:44 PM
  13. Malatesta's Avatar
    Therefore the Treo 700wx is an unfinished product which shouldn't have been released. (and this was an upgrade the problematic 700w).
    Is anyone saying the iPhone shouldn't be released? I thought it was asking if it was unfinished/rushed?
    06-27-2007 06:45 PM
  14. beachtrader's Avatar
    Oh yeah. I got 4 kids. When I want to capture them doing something I take a picture knowing that the quality is decent and I can keep it over time rather than a small unviewable video. When I go to any major or minor event and need video I take a real video camera so the captured event can be seen.
    06-27-2007 06:49 PM
  15. beachtrader's Avatar
    Is anyone saying the iPhone shouldn't be released? I thought it was asking if it was unfinished/rushed?
    Same thing, different words. Unfinished/rushed is directly implying it shouldn't be released now.
    06-27-2007 06:50 PM
  16. oalvarez's Avatar
    I chose those features because they did not look like design decisions to me, but actual omissions, which the consumer would be expecting. Especially video recording, no matter how crappy, is an often used feature, which would quickly be missed.

    Surur
    do you have access to their marketing studies to state such?
    06-27-2007 06:55 PM
  17. surur's Avatar
    Forget about MMS/Video for a second...

    - No select, copy, paste?
    - No search contacts?
    Those are design decisions however. Apple just did not design the contacts to work with filtering and search. Its not the same as leaving out a basic function completely.

    Like I said-- "a feature I use" -- for you it's important, but for the rest they can make their own decision. And in two days the public will speak with their wallet one way or another.
    My point is not that I use it, but that its very widely used, which makes Apple's omission odd, and suggests it was forced into that decision for some reason. The reason I postulate is that they ran out of time.

    Re public acceptance of the deficiencies, the early adopters obviously do not care, and by the time the mass market gets it these features may have been added already.

    Surur
    06-27-2007 06:55 PM
  18. surur's Avatar
    do you have access to their marketing studies to state such?
    Nice 2005 article here. I expect the numbers have only increased.

    Europe : Two-thirds of mobile phone and PDA users rate two-days of battery life during active use as the most important feature of an ideal converged device of the future, according to a new study by TNS, a leading global provider of market information.

    The study, conducted among 15 global countries during July and August 2005, was undertaken to uncover what would drive consumer demand for mobile devices in the future, as well as benchmarking brand performance and use of existing mobile phone, PDA and laptop applications. One section of the study looked at consumer views on converged devices a device which will replace the multiple devices which people carry around now for all communication, information and entertainment needs while being compact and incorporating a mobile phone and high speed Internet as standard.

    Topping the wish list of key features in 14 of the 15 countries surveyed is two days of battery life during active use, indicating that insufficient battery life is still a real pain point for consumers today. Reaffirming this, concern with using up battery is one of the top reasons why consumers do not use games, music and TV applications on their mobile more frequently. Respondents in China were the exception, saying 20 Gigabytes of memory is the key feature to have in the future.

    Across all countries, almost half of respondents say a high resolution camera and video camera (48 per cent) and 20 Gigabytes of memory (47 per cent), would be important features to incorporate. In Brazil, a much higher emphasis was placed on video conferencing with 53 per cent of people identifying this as a key feature, compared to an average of just 25 per cent across all countries surveyed.

    Following the launch of Apples new Rokr iTune phone, Sonys Walkman W800 and the anticipated arrival of Nokias N91 new mobile prior to the Christmas rush, new innovation in mobile technology is once again a hotly contested issue among manufacturers, operators and high street retailers. The market is preparing itself for a period of intense competition to create the new must-have device and build market share.

    The results also provide a wealth of insights into how applications are currently being used. The report show that use of MMS is now fairly common, with 46 per cent of mobile phone users interviewed saying they send pictures and photos via MMS, and 23 per cent saying they send video or audio clips through MMS. Sending photos and pictures via MMS is used most amongst mobile phone users in Japan (80 per cent), France (68 per cent), Korea (66 per cent) and UK (65 per cent). Expensive charges was the main reason cited for the lack of MMS take up (46 per cent of mobile users), while 22 per cent of mobile users said photo and video quality was an issue, and 15 per cent thought there were interoperability problems.

    Camera use among mobile phones owners is also prevalent, with 59 per cent of people who own camera phones using them at least once a week. Camera phones were used most frequently in France, Korea and the UK with almost a quarter using this function daily. Camera features on PDAs are used relatively less frequently, with only 46 per cent of PDA users with such a feature using it at least once a week.

    The report also highlights differences across markets and shows that internet telephony is used much more widely amongst laptop users in developing compared with developed markets. In Brazil, India and Russia, 44 per cent, 30 per cent and 22 per cent of laptop users respectively use voice over internet protocol (VoIP), compared to just two per cent in Japan and the Netherlands. This is likely to be a reflection of, and reaction to, poorer infrastructure and less affordable telecommunication in developing markets.

    Hanis Harun, Global Account Director, TNS Technology, comments:

    "The study shows that there is an appetite among consumers for powerful new applications, particularly those around entertainment media and imaging. However, the research also indicates that consumers now fully realise that such applications require enhanced battery life and increased memory and they are demanding these improvements as a priority.

    As mobile operators and handset manufacturers develop more converged communication, information and entertainment devices with a host of innovative features and applications, they need to also ensure the fundamentals are in place. This means products with long battery life and large memories, and services which are cost effective and easy to use."
    http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Sept2005/1944.htm

    Surur
    06-27-2007 07:01 PM
  19. Malatesta's Avatar
    Same thing, different words. Unfinished/rushed is directly implying it shouldn't be released now.
    Huh, I actually thought the opposite.

    I think it is more than obvious they wanted to get this on the market sooner than later. After all, it was 6 months from annoucement to release, but I bet they wanted to squeeze more features on to it.

    It begs the question of what is a finished product? Since Apple already said they are going to roll out updates that has to mean it is not finished and wont' be till they stop developing for it. I bet their developers wish they had more time, they always do.

    I think that is somewhat different than asking: did they over look some basic features for initial release?

    I think they certainly did. Since they seem to "reinventing the phone" it doesn't appear from reviews that dialing a number or making a call from your contacts is necessarily any different than any other device, which seems odd since that was their main argument--it's too hard to do simple things.

    None of the Apple supporters (oalvarez, Archie) seem to be concerend with the lack of such features as the copy/paste, search contacts, IM, MMS, no A2DP, no doc editing e.g. the limitations of the device, as they just wave them off as "I don't use that anyways, so who cares?"

    Which is fine, except I wish the same standards would apply to Palm when they don't put in A2DP in certain devices, or omit some other function. Seems to be a double standard.
    06-27-2007 07:04 PM
  20. beachtrader's Avatar
    Those are design decisions however. Apple just did not design the contacts to work with filtering and search. Its not the same as leaving out a basic function completely.

    My point is not that I use it, but that its very widely used, which makes Apple's omission odd, and suggests it was forced into that decision for some reason. The reason I postulate is that they ran out of time.

    Re public acceptance of the deficiencies, the early adopters obviously do not care, and by the time the mass market gets it these features may have been added already.

    Surur
    I think public purchase on Friday and beyond is the test of whether the public wants something or not.

    As for the cut and paste. Let's think about this--if you asked 100 people walking down the street talking on a cell phone and asked them this:

    How often do you cut and paste text on your phone?

    Realistically, what do you think the answer would be?

    Remember Jobs wants this to be a high end phone for the mass market.
    06-27-2007 07:07 PM
  21. oalvarez's Avatar
    2005, not apple inc, and non-US......thanks anyways
    06-27-2007 07:07 PM
  22. surur's Avatar
    This pack of slides may interest you more then. Its US, from 2006.
    http://www.slideshare.net/kuchmuch/d...tion-mmetrics/

    Surur
    06-27-2007 07:09 PM
  23. beachtrader's Avatar
    <deleted. repost when forum went nuts>
    06-27-2007 07:12 PM
  24. surur's Avatar
    I think public purchase on Friday and beyond is the test of whether the public wants something or not.

    As for the cut and paste. Let's think about this--if you asked 100 people walking down the street talking on a cell phone and asked them this:

    How often do you cut and paste text on your phone?

    Realistically, what do you think the answer would be?

    Remember Jobs wants this to be a high end phone for the mass market.
    What would the answer be if you asked 100 users of a "great internet device"? We are talking about cutting and pasting from the web browser, arnt we?

    Surur
    06-27-2007 07:17 PM
  25. Malatesta's Avatar
    How often do you cut and paste text on your phone?

    Realistically, what do you think the answer would be?

    Remember Jobs wants this to be a high end phone for the mass market.
    Ahhh, but that's the rub!

    On a regular flip phone, there in no copy/paste because

    a) no touchscreen
    b) they dont' have the "full internet" on there

    Reverse the question: How often to you copy/past on your PC or Mac? Send someone a link? Send a number or information? Copy directions?

    I bet it's a lot. That is why all WM ppcs, Blackberry's and Symbian do it. It's a criticl function when you handle information on a mobile communicator/internet device.
    06-27-2007 07:18 PM
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