1. braj's Avatar
    The problem is that the American carriers want final say on every device on their network. This is what google and at&t are currently haggling with the fcc about with the 700MHz auction.

    Let's hope google gets its way.
    Did I mention American carriers suck?
    07-23-2007 02:01 PM
  2. Certs's Avatar
    According to posters on howardforums and elsewhere, you can indeed remove the sim from your iphone and place it in a "beach phone." Voice and text work. It's the reverse that is the problem (sim from another phone into the iphone).
    Correct, and 3G data works too (tested on 750 and blackjack).
    07-23-2007 02:07 PM
  3. Malatesta's Avatar
    Looks like people are expecting iPhone updates fast and furious...too bad in the phone world, updates are few and far between.

    This may change with the iPhone, but generally on most smartphones, (and phones) firmware/software patches are rare (compared to desktop software)
    No doubt and expecting a software update after 3 weeks does seem a bit fast, except two things:

    (1) Apple is/has been working on an update since they probably locked down the software for shipping. So it's not that far fetched.
    (2) In a nice surprise, Motorola released an update for the Sprint Q 3 weeks after release to fix a bunch of issues, so it can and has been done.
    07-23-2007 02:08 PM
  4. bubbatex's Avatar
    (2) In a nice surprise, Motorola released an update for the Sprint Q 3 weeks after release to fix a bunch of issues, so it can and has been done.
    But it didn't really work too well - at least on mine!
    07-23-2007 02:19 PM
  5. Malatesta's Avatar
    But I think it will be about 2 years before we see anything like Safari.
    Even as a demonstration-release, MS's Deepfish is not too far off from what Safari can do.

    Demo

    I've been using it for months now and even though it's just a "technology preview" (not even an alpha or beta for release) it works quite well. There is a security issue with server-side handling, so that is one thing that will need to be considered.
    07-23-2007 02:22 PM
  6. Malatesta's Avatar
    But it didn't really work too well - at least on mine!
    lol, sorry about that, it helped me though
    07-23-2007 02:26 PM
  7. braj's Avatar
    Even as a demonstration-release, MS's Deepfish is not too far off from what Safari can do.

    Demo

    I've been using it for months now and even though it's just a "technology preview" (not even an alpha or beta for release) it works quite well. There is a security issue with server-side handling, so that is one thing that will need to be considered.
    Not to mention Nokia's browser and the upcoming Opera. Apple may have the slickest implementation so far but they are not using a unique idea. First one that allows me to highlight some text and send it via IM, SMS or email wins IMO. At the very least allow me some menu option to send the link via email.
    07-23-2007 02:28 PM
  8. cmaier's Avatar
    Even as a demonstration-release, MS's Deepfish is not too far off from what Safari can do.

    Demo

    I've been using it for months now and even though it's just a "technology preview" (not even an alpha or beta for release) it works quite well. There is a security issue with server-side handling, so that is one thing that will need to be considered.
    Looks pretty nice. Let's hope they actually release it sometime. A lot of the MS labs stuff tends to dead-end.

    Let's also hope that iphone had some effect on the mobile browser situation, and lots of good browsers are coming; before iphone, the innovative browsers that people were talking about (at least that I heard about) were things like opera (which, while a step up from blazer, isn't in the same league with mobile safari). I imagine we won't see much of a response from MS or palm, however, until their next generation of products. (And, for palmos, that might as well be never. I expect we'll see their linux-based OS around the time duke nukem forever ships).
    07-23-2007 02:29 PM
  9. surur's Avatar
    So... Apple and security... have you met before?

    iPhone / Yahoo: Too cool to do standards, too hip to do security.
    20070719T140828+0000

    Replay! Attack!

    Okay, so those two words dont mean anything to you.

    Take one iPhone. Take a Yahoo mail account, supporting Push IMAP, although its neither P-IMAP nor Lemonade. The iPhone authenticates to Yahoo using a proprietary mechanism called XYMPKI. The exchange goes like this:

    iPhone: Id like to authenticate using XYMPKI, please.
    Yahoo: *nothing*
    iPhone: Heres a structured message, containing my device ID and a signature.
    Yahoo: *nothing*
    iPhone: Heres my X.509 certificate in DER form.
    Yahoo: Okay, I believe you.

    Now, people have posted these traces on the web. Everyone knows that PKI is pretty secure, of course.

    So, find one, and repeat it:

    Me: Id like to authenticate using XYMPKI, please.
    Yahoo: *nothing*
    Me: Heres someone elses first message, that I snooped off the wire, or grabbed via Google.
    Yahoo: *nothing*
    Me: Heres someone elses certificate, that I also got.
    Yahoo: Okay, I believe you.

    This is known as a replay attack. Its not too serious, because any recent IMAP service supports TLS - theyre all mandated to by RFC3501, let alone Lemonade. This prevents replay attacks via sniffing, because you cant get data. Youre still vulnerable to someone spoofing the DNS, and therefore pretending to be Yahoos server, although TLS certificate checking should catch this, too.

    Oh, wait - because Yahoo! Dont! Do! Standards!

    So they dont do TLS.

    So not only does DNS spoofing work very nicely - thanks, Yahoo - but also anyone on an unencrypted access point can lift your credentials.

    So.

    What could Yahoo and Apple have done about this?

    Well, firstly, they could have done TLS. Thatd protect against the replay attack, as well as bringing them somewhat closer into line with the RFC theyre meant to be following.

    Secondly, they could have used a different mechanism, say DIGEST-MD5 (venerable and moving to historic, but still quite good), GSSAPI, or simply TLS and SASL EXTERNAL based on the device certificate. Or some other proprietary mechanism that actually offered real security.

    But they didnt. Because they dont, apparently, give a flying **** about basic security, standards, or indeed anything much other than how to look cool. I dont know why Im so angry about this, given I dont own an iPhone, but its a further let-down from people who really ought to know better.

    These things ought to be a showcase for technology, not a shiny box of stupidity.
    http://blog.dave.cridland.net/?p=32

    So, has Paris Hilton got an iPhone yet? On the other hand, the iPhone doesn't do video, does it...

    Surur
    07-23-2007 02:32 PM
  10. cmaier's Avatar
    Not to mention Nokia's browser and the upcoming Opera. Apple may have the slickest implementation so far but they are not using a unique idea. First one that allows me to highlight some text and send it via IM, SMS or email wins IMO. At the very least allow me some menu option to send the link via email.
    You can actually copy and paste links now using bookmarklets. I'm guessing there is a send-link bookmarklet out there somewhere, too, but if not it would be a pretty easy modification.

    Not a very pretty solution, but it works. (I actually rely on a bookmarklet for "find on this page" pretty heavily - it's a pretty nice way to go until and unless they add some more functionality).
    07-23-2007 02:35 PM
  11. braj's Avatar
    You can actually copy and paste links now using bookmarklets. I'm guessing there is a send-link bookmarklet out there somewhere, too, but if not it would be a pretty easy modification.

    Not a very pretty solution, but it works. (I actually rely on a bookmarklet for "find on this page" pretty heavily - it's a pretty nice way to go until and unless they add some more functionality).
    But I thought Apple products were supposed to be elegant?
    07-23-2007 03:05 PM
  12. surur's Avatar
    But I thought Apple products were supposed to be elegant?
    I seriously wonder if Apple will add all this functionality that people seem to want. Wont they end up needing that big anti-thesis of the iPhone, menus?

    Surur
    07-23-2007 03:10 PM
  13. cmaier's Avatar
    But I thought Apple products were supposed to be elegant?
    I'm not defending it. Just stating facts. To do these things one needs to touch the bookmark icon, then select the appropriate bookmark. These functions should definitely be built-in. In the mean time, I'm willing to put up with it because the benefits for me outweigh the problems. I have no doubt that copy and paste will be added shortly, and everyone (me included) will move on to the next items on their list of favorite complaints. In the mean time, there's a partial work-around.
    07-23-2007 03:11 PM
  14. cmaier's Avatar
    I seriously wonder if Apple will add all this functionality that people seem to want. Wont they end up needing that big anti-thesis of the iPhone, menus?

    Surur
    iphone has menus, of sorts. For example, the settings app is essentially one big menu (implemented as forms). I don't think the interface is "anti-menu" so much as it is "hide stuff we think you don't use often."
    07-23-2007 03:13 PM
  15. surur's Avatar
    I don't think the interface is "anti-menu" so much as it is "hide stuff we think you don't use often."
    Or "leave out stuff we think you don't use often".

    Surur
    07-23-2007 03:20 PM
  16. braj's Avatar
    I'm not defending it. Just stating facts. To do these things one needs to touch the bookmark icon, then select the appropriate bookmark. These functions should definitely be built-in. In the mean time, I'm willing to put up with it because the benefits for me outweigh the problems. I have no doubt that copy and paste will be added shortly, and everyone (me included) will move on to the next items on their list of favorite complaints. In the mean time, there's a partial work-around.
    Yeah, I wasn't saying you were You are about the most level-headed iPhone user I've personally come across. Kudos to you, sir Oalvarez you definitely are not.
    07-23-2007 03:23 PM
  17. Malatesta's Avatar
    Yeah, I wasn't saying you were You are about the most level-headed iPhone user I've personally come across. Kudos to you, sir Oalvarez you definitely are not.
    I agree. You can actually discuss things with cmaier. His views are relative and valued here.

    I am curious with how widespread the iPhone is projected to be, if we'll see a reversal of hacking/virii for mobile devices i.e. we have anti-virus scanners for WM yet there has never been a "real" virus attempt to spread on these devices (despite all of those FUD "projections" from symantec).

    But will there be more attempts at hacking/compromising the iPhone due to

    (1) It's so widely adopted (relatively) and it's prominence
    (2) It's so locked down that it attracts more attention?

    Obviously it's way too early to make any predictions, thought it will be interesting to see what happens.
    07-23-2007 03:55 PM
  18. surur's Avatar
    If its the next Razr (50 million over the next 2 years) it will be hacked to kingdom come.

    Surur
    07-23-2007 04:02 PM
  19. mobileman's Avatar
    Even as a demonstration-release, MS's Deepfish is not too far off from what Safari can do.

    Demo

    I've been using it for months now and even though it's just a "technology preview" (not even an alpha or beta for release) it works quite well. There is a security issue with server-side handling, so that is one thing that will need to be considered.
    With all due respect Malatesta, Deepfish has nothing on Mobile Safari. I installed it on a few of my work devices, and while it might be the best WM browser available, it still has a ways to go before it can compete. I'm also wondering how much effort Microsoft will put into developing it further.
    07-23-2007 04:24 PM
  20. Certs's Avatar
    Yeah, I wasn't saying you were You are about the most level-headed iPhone user I've personally come across
    I feel neglected
    07-23-2007 04:43 PM
  21. braj's Avatar
    I'm also wondering how much effort Microsoft will put into developing it further.
    My guess is MS will put lots of effort into developing a mobile browser now that Apple has released Safari. Not that it will necessarily be good, mind you
    07-23-2007 04:43 PM
  22. braj's Avatar
    I feel neglected
    You're just so level-headed that it hurts, Patty.
    07-23-2007 04:43 PM
  23. Certs's Avatar
    If its the next Razr (50 million over the next 2 years) it will be hacked to kingdom come.

    Surur
    50 million will never happen, unless every carrier starts selling them (which I bet won't happen either)
    07-23-2007 04:44 PM
  24. braj's Avatar
    50 million will never happen, unless every carrier starts selling them (which I bet won't happen either)
    With the US exclusivity clause it can't happen (not the 50 million obviously, but the carriers).
    07-23-2007 04:45 PM
  25. cmaier's Avatar
    Thank you for your kind words. I spent a decade designing microprocessors for companies like Sun and AMD, so it's in my nature to break things down logically and analyze them from a neutral perspective.

    If Apple doesn't do a firmware update by the end of august that addresses some of the glaring deficiencies, I may join you guys :-) (but probably not. i knew what i was paying for when i forked over my cash, so i don't feel like apple owes me too much beyond bug fixes.)
    07-23-2007 04:50 PM
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