1. jclisenby's Avatar
    My philosophy is simple: God, Guns, Sweet Tea, Roll Tide...America, F Yeah!
    01-20-2013 09:29 PM
  2. warcraftWidow's Avatar
    I have no issue with NASCAR making that decision, I just think its the wrong one from a monetary stance. If the drivers, owners, race teams and advertisers are ok with that, then that's their decision. They can make their choice and I'll make mine by not having my eyeballs (advertising money) and attendance and fan paraphernalia money going towards them. No big deal by me-but I do fit into a fairly highly targeted advertising demographic (married, suburban, children, college educated, gen x, income high enough for the "wants not needs"). I have plenty of other sports I can enjoy watching and attending. Same with Chik-Fil-A. They can have their beliefs and I can find another place to eat. They are privately owned and do not have shareholders to answer to.

    I don't have a problem with public displays of religion, per se. If a church wants to hold a service on a public park, I have no issue with that as long as other organizations are given an equal chance (including a equal shot at a specific time and date, that is if for instance an atheist group and a church want to hold something at 9am on Sunday in a public spot, then it should be decided by a coin flip rather than deferring to the church because it's Sunday).

    I do have a problem with pressure to conform to religious belief in a secular setting such as the military academies. NASCAR being privately owned is different and can make their own decisions even if I disagree. However, most of the Sprint Cup tracks are owned by a public corporation, and as long as their shareholders know and are aware of the possible implications of holding a public prayer, then that is ok as well.

    I have no problem being respectful of others practicing their religion, as long as they are respectful of my right not to. And in my experience, that respect of my lack of belief is hard to find. There are numerous times from family gatherings, supposedly secular organization gathering offering a prayer over a shared meal, a public school saying the pledge or having a moment of silence, where I am respectfully standing or sitting quietly or in the case of the pledge omitting "under god", but not bowing my head or closing my eyes, and I have many people glaring at me (with heads bowed of course) for not conforming to what they think I should do during a prayer. That is the insidious pressure that atheists feel all the time which I'm fairly sure that Christians don't face. If you came to my house for a meal and wanted to bow your head in silent prayer at the table, then that would be fine. If you asked me to join you, I'd decline and as long as you didn't press the issue, that's fine too. If I was in your home, then I hope it would be fine for me to sit quietly during your prayer without participating.

    Everybody's experience with travel is different. In my case, if I go to Paris, I go to see Notre Dame, but for the history and architecture, not to witness a religious service. Same if I was to visit Angor Wat, many sites in Israel and/or Palestine, Mecca, etc. And I would want to plan my visit in order to not disturb their observances or traditions.

    Anyway, just my thoughts and as stated above, I'm glad we're keeping this civil.
    BLiNK likes this.
    01-20-2013 09:52 PM
  3. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    I have no issue with NASCAR making that decision, I just think its the wrong one from a monetary stance.
    From a believers standpoint, the money is secondary and will be taken care of. ...(snipped)...
    Same with Chik-Fil-A. They can have their beliefs and I can find another place to eat.
    As I've stated o numerous occasion, that is the beauty of having choices. Still, Chick-fil-A's Christian stance is legendary and has served them well for a very long time. Even when their beliefs came under attack last year and they were threatened via an attempt to hurt them monetarily, they survived basically unscathed and their beliefs are still intact. Some people find it difficult to understand why that is or why the threat of monetary penalties have no effect, but believers clearly understand...(snipped)...

    I don't have a problem with public displays of religion, per se. If a church wants to hold a service on a public park, I have no issue with that as long as other organizations are given an equal chance (including a equal shot at a specific time and date, that is if for instance an atheist group and a church want to hold something at 9am on Sunday in a public spot, then it should be decided by a coin flip rather than deferring to the church because it's Sunday).
    I have no problem with this....(snipped)...
    I have no problem being respectful of others practicing their religion, as long as they are respectful of my right not to. And in my experience, that respect of my lack of belief is hard to find.
    It has been the opposite in mine...(snipped)...
    Anyway, just my thoughts and as stated above, I'm glad we're keeping this civil.
    Me, too. Good post, by the way...
    Fausty82 likes this.
    01-20-2013 10:46 PM
  4. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Karenkcoulter...i totally respect your stance, and i can understand the frustration of judgmental eyes on you, it's really not fair to you...but on the flip side of that coin, imagine the looks people get FOR doing it, when they are praying and people are looking at them like they are doing something wrong. It goes both ways really.

    And it would seem the biggest problem you have is the pressure to acclimate with the masses when you are trying to enjoy something where these religious acts happen before, within or after. Pressure all comes from you, and I'm not trying to say it's your fault for feeling it...not at all, you're only human and we all handle life differently...but when it comes to pressure, the only person that can do anything about that is you, since it is you that it is affecting. If i go to a festival where an atheist gathering is, and i feel pressure from them to justify my stance, the only person that can do anything about that is me...i can either disregard it and continue with my plans or i can take it on, and the outcome of that falls on me, not them...they are there anyways, i choose whether i want to step into that arena or not.

    As far as ceremonies and equal opportunities...I'm 100% with you on that, but I'd also like to see some maturity amongst those people who are trying to have the ceremony, if you have a group of atheist that go to a park where a Christian group is trying to hold an easter sunday festival, and they get mad because the church is given preference in that and given the park, i would expect them to understand why, to see that this is something to be expected, and honestly, unless it was just some random sunday, i think it's fair to say that the scenario probably would never happen.

    Travel situations are also something i agree with you on, but this is the thing...we went to Italy, and we were enjoying a nice meal and the sites, and in the middle of that, a catholic parade came down the street (i have no idea what it was about), we watched and just continued on with what we were doing. Another time we were in Tahiti, there was some celebration for Sanito, i have no idea what that is but i remember specifically because we were taking pictures and we just saw a bunch of masked people, dancing around and asked and a guy tried to explain it to us but we didn't speak hardly any french so we didn't really understand...regardless, we just kind of watched and went on with our business.
    Last edited by SeanHRCC; 01-21-2013 at 09:29 AM.
    01-21-2013 09:14 AM
  5. warcraftWidow's Avatar
    Karenkcoulter...i totally respect your stance, and i can understand the frustration of judgmental eyes on you, it's really not fair to you...but on the flip side of that coin, imagine the looks people get FOR doing it, when they are praying and people are looking at them like they are doing something wrong. It goes both ways really.

    And it would seem the biggest problem you have is the pressure to acclimate with the masses when you are trying to enjoy something where these religious acts happen before, within or after. Pressure all comes from you, and I'm not trying to say it's your fault for feeling it...not at all, you're only human and we all handle life differently...but when it comes to pressure, the only person that can do anything about that is you, since it is you that it is affecting. If i go to a festival where an atheist gathering is, and i feel pressure from them to justify my stance, the only person that can do anything about that is me...i can either disregard it and continue with my plans or i can take it on, and the outcome of that falls on me, not them...they are there anyways, i choose whether i want to step into that arena or not.
    I disagree that "the pressure all come from you". It is definitely external to me. I don't choose to get glared at for respectfully choosing not to pray. Now my response is definitely "within me". And that response is to ignore their attempts to get me to conform. Almost always without comment or action unless it is a family member whom I've asked to stop and respect my lack if beliefs. Yes if I was to enter a church, I would expect them to be doing "church things" and have no problem with them pressuring me there. After all I entered their domain, the same as if you entered an atheist gathering at a festival. However I can and do choose not to enter the church.

    What I dislike the most is the religious overtones to things which should be and are secular in nature. Take today's inauguration for instance. I'm certain there will be prayers, presumably non-denominational, and the swearing in on a Bible. Maybe that what President Obama wants; I don't know and don't care what his personal beliefs are as I don't think they affect his ability to do the job of President. But I'm guessing there would be a huge outcry if he said he was not going to swear on the Bible or have prayers at the Inauguration even if he stated it was because of separation of church and state reasons and not personal religious convictions. However the job of President is a secular one, yet somehow very religious overtones creep into public, secular, government ceremonies and functions. I don't have an issue with a president attending something like the National Prayer Breakfast because that is a privately sponsored event not a government sponsored event. I have no issues with the president and family going to church. It only irks me when it is what should be a secular occasion supported by the government and tax payers and open and welcoming to everyone includes religious overtones. Yes the vast majority of time I would just ignore it-my actions are under my control after all. And it wouldn't stop me from going to the Inauguration if I wanted to, but it does detract from it in my view.
    01-21-2013 10:04 AM
  6. warcraftWidow's Avatar
    As for ceremonies (such as an Easter service as mentioned above) in a public place, I would have to disagree. Both groups should have equal right to the space, but once a group was given the space, then the other side should respect that. So if a town's pre-existing rules were that whichever group got their application in first, and the atheist group got their first, then I would expect the church to go find some other place. Likewise if the church got the space, I would expect the atheist group to leave them alone and not try to interrupt. Just because traditionally the church holds a service on Easter Sunday and the atheist group does not, does not mean the church should be given preferential treatment by the government. Assuming both groups complied equally with the law, then both are entitled to a fair application of that law.
    01-21-2013 10:18 AM
  7. warcraftWidow's Avatar
    As for travel, if I was somewhere and there were unexpected events like a religious parade (as an exams given above) while I was eating a meal, I could care less. It wouldn't interrupt me or bother me and I would just continue with my meal. If they were blocking the street with their parade while I was trying to cross, I would respectfully wait.

    I have no issues with respecting other cultures or religions in this country or any other. But I know how many times that respect is not returned or that people assume that someone without religious faith is somehow less moral than someone with that faith. I have yet to kill, rape, rob, or beat someone. I don't lie more than the average person. I put in a hard day's work and am raising two polite daughters who will also someday contribute to society (with or without religion once they are mature enough to make a reasoned decision for themselves). I have no less of a sense if morals than you (not you specifically just in a general sense). Ok, rant over.
    BLiNK likes this.
    01-21-2013 10:35 AM
  8. Alli's Avatar
    Hey! Don't take Sports out of the equation. <sniff>

    I'll steer the topic back around. Last night, after the Ravens righteously whomped the Patriots, a Twitter friend went on a tirade about Ray Lewis, and how profane it was for him to pray and that you can't be forgiven for all your sins just by becoming "born again." (Referring back to the 2000 murder indictment.) While Lewis was never convicted, how often do we see people (particularly athletes) commit crimes and repent because they've found God? And does God really forgive them?
    01-21-2013 10:38 AM
  9. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Hey! Don't take Sports out of the equation.

    I'll steer the topic back around. Last night, after the Ravens righteously whomped the Patriots, a Twitter friend went on a tirade about Ray Lewis, and how profane it was for him to pray
    Why? The guy was filled with joy and is thankful to be in the position he & his teammates are in. Wasn't it a teammate who stated that the Ravens team are a praying team?
    and that you can't be forgiven for all your sins just by becoming "born again." (Referring back to the 2000 murder indictment.)
    Wrong. "People" tend to not forgive, not GOD. One of my best friends find it difficult to forgive Ray for that 2000 murder indictment and no matter how much Ray has clearly changed and all the good that he has done from that time forward, that one incident remains locked in my friend's mind. That is him not forgiving Ray and his lack of forgiveness is based on his perceptions and not that of GOD's.
    so While Lewis was never convicted, how often do we see people (particularly athletes) commit crimes and repent because they've found God? And does God really forgive them?
    We've seen this quite a bit and some are truly repentant and some are not. As for your final question, If those athletes were truly sorry and repentant, then yes, HE forgave them. People find it difficult to understand the importance of forgiving. Forgiveness is essential to healing and we tend to think that if I haven't forgiven him then that means GOD hasn't and HE is greater than I am. Yet, it is because HE is greater that HE can forgive when we cannot.
    Last edited by JustMe'D; 01-21-2013 at 11:56 AM.
    01-21-2013 11:24 AM
  10. Fausty82's Avatar
    Hey! Don't take Sports out of the equation. <sniff>

    I'll steer the topic back around. Last night, after the Ravens righteously whomped the Patriots, a Twitter friend went on a tirade about Ray Lewis, and how profane it was for him to pray and that you can't be forgiven for all your sins just by becoming "born again." (Referring back to the 2000 murder indictment.) While Lewis was never convicted, how often do we see people (particularly athletes) commit crimes and repent because they've found God? And does God really forgive them?
    I dont see it as profane at all to pray - for certainly weve all sinned in one regard or another. To truly becoming "born again", and receive true forgiveness, requires a genuine, heartfelt repentance for your past actions, as well as accepting the sacrificial and redemptive work of Christ dying in our place. It is then, and only then that God forgives. And only God and the individual (in this example, Ray Lewis) know the real truth... though, if the experience is genuine, the ways of the individual (again, in this example, Ray Lewis) will demonstrate real change.

    We do, however, see a great number of public displays for the sake of making a public display. The same is true of "jailhouse salvation"... many in jail/prison finds God... until they get out and it no longer serves their purpose. And it makes a mockery of those who truly are changed by a personal experience with God. Unfortunately, its somewhat "in vogue" for professional athletes to profess being a Christian these days - with little regard to the actual personal experience.
    01-21-2013 11:44 AM
  11. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    I'm going to respectfully bow out of this discussion, simply because there are two sides to this debate that will probably never come to a median point. As a religious person, i feel a certain amount is lacking to people's choice to express it in public, and i can understand the feeling someone has who is not religious but is surrounded by it, it must be quite uncomfortable...hopefully these two sides can find peace more often than not.
    Fausty82, Alli, jclisenby and 2 others like this.
    01-21-2013 03:56 PM
  12. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    I'm going to respectfully bow out of this discussion, simply because there are two sides to this debate that will probably never come to a median point. As a religious person, i feel a certain amount is lacking to people's choice to express it in public, and i can understand the feeling someone has who is not religious but is surrounded by it, it must be quite uncomfortable...hopefully these two sides can find peace more often than not.
    Well stated, and like you, I'm also done with the discussion. Thankfully, it remained civil despite the participants' difference of opinion. Enjoy the rest of your day...
    Fausty82 likes this.
    01-21-2013 04:02 PM
  13. rdiddy_25's Avatar
    So I guess this would bother some of you:




    Best Pre-Race prayer ever!!
    Last edited by rdiddy_25; 01-21-2013 at 07:11 PM.
    01-21-2013 06:42 PM
  14. Hail Caesar's Avatar
    I don't think GOD cares about sports.
    02-15-2013 12:12 AM
  15. Alli's Avatar
    Of course She does. She's a huge FIFA fan.
    02-15-2013 07:00 AM
40 12

Similar Threads

  1. CoachNote - The Must-Have App for Coaches, Players and Sports Fans
    By Alice Laquisha in forum iPhone Apps & Games
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-20-2012, 03:11 AM
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-01-2012, 08:05 AM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-07-2011, 02:36 PM
  4. Life Quotes: reading quotes and stories from life
    By iAppE in forum iPhone Apps & Games
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-20-2011, 02:04 PM
  5. Quote from the NJ Ledger
    By MacUser in forum iPhone 4
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 06-26-2007, 09:39 AM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD