1. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    I appreciate your answer. I truly do.
    Thank you, but I don't hold any ill-feelings in regard to your stance. We just see certain things from a different perspective, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    You might find this hard to believe, but I too am a Christian. Maybe different in some ways ... ok many ways.
    (laughing)...Christians have varying talents and tolerances, my friend, so no, I'm not surprised...

    I believe that government should be secular.
    I agree in theory, but there's a difference between government being secular and then governing in a manner that disregards religion or one's religious beliefs. I know that's a broad statement, but you know what I mean. Besides, I'm about to walk out the door as soon as I type this reply...
    I am pretty sure God's Kingdom is a heavenly one, not earthly. That being the case, I would never let a gay couple come between me and God. Even if I made them a cake.
    Neither would I, but is failing to bake a cake for what is believed, by many, to be a dishonor to HIM wrong?
    Last edited by Just_Me_D; 07-22-2015 at 01:34 PM.
    kilofoxtrot likes this.
    07-22-2015 12:54 PM
  2. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    If I threaten to harm someone and do so, its the elaboration that enforces the charge and not the act?

    -----

    This is a case of the baker using religion to discriminate. Its against the law to discriminate in Oregon. You disagree?

    If the bakers said "No" to the gay couple....... the outcome would be the same.

    If the bakers said "We dont serve gays" to the gay couple.... the outcome would be the same.

    If the bakers ignored the gay couple....the outcome would be the same.

    In other words, it was the act that got the bakers in trouble. Not what they said.

    Discrimination is an act, not an elaboration.
    This is where we disagree...I don't feel this is the case at all. I feel if the couple came in, and the bakery stone walled them and never said anything but "No.", this situation would have blown up virally, but it would not have seen any court time. It became a legal dispute once the words were said...making it a situation of a denial of freedom of speech (as well as other things).

    And above, someone responded about some slanderous acts that the bakery committed...find some legitimate reports backing that stuff up and we'll talk. So far, the only legitimate sources I've read have shown that the bakery defended itself in public, but did not attack.
    07-22-2015 01:53 PM
  3. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    This is where we disagree...I don't feel this is the case at all. I feel if the couple came in, and the bakery stone walled them and never said anything but "No.", this situation would have blown up virally, but it would not have seen any court time. It became a legal dispute once the words were said...making it a situation of a denial of freedom of speech (as well as other things).

    And above, someone responded about some slanderous acts that the bakery committed...find some legitimate reports backing that stuff up and we'll talk. So far, the only legitimate sources I've read have shown that the bakery defended itself in public, but did not attack.
    Its ok we disagree..... but we can agree that we hate the Nats.
    07-22-2015 02:22 PM
  4. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Its ok we disagree..... but we can agree that we hate the Nats.


    07-22-2015 02:43 PM
  5. pappy53's Avatar
    What about a sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?
    07-22-2015 11:01 PM
  6. iOS Gravity's Avatar
    What about a sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?
    A good idea, but people always find loopholes.
    07-22-2015 11:11 PM
  7. iOS Gravity's Avatar
    2 transgender women were not allowed to donate blood so they sued.
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/dominicholde...nsgender-women
    07-23-2015 12:52 PM
  8. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    2 transgender women were not allowed to donate blood so they sued.
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/dominicholde...nsgender-women
    How ridiculous. These 2 women don't understand how many things can prevent you from being able to give blood...and the regulations these companies that are in charge of blood collection have to follow to avoid being sued for any number of a thousand different things.

    I'm surprised the court is even hearing this case, and I hope they counter sue for court cost when it is determined they were rightfully turned down.
    07-23-2015 01:06 PM
  9. kch50428's Avatar
    What about a sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?
    Even though there is a right to free association - there is no right to free disassociation apparently...
    07-23-2015 01:11 PM
  10. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    What about a sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?
    As long as they refrain from verbally explaining the reason for refusal, they're good, but it's also a catch-22 because society, in general, will demand an explanation, and once that explanation is given, especially in regard to homosexuality, the business is screwed, in my opinion.
    07-23-2015 02:17 PM
  11. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    As long as they refrain from verbally explaining the reason for refusal, they're good, but it's also a catch-22 because society, in general, will demand an explanation, and once that explanation is given, especially in regard to homosexuality, the business is screwed, in my opinion.
    It's not your opinion my friend...recent events have shown that this is very much the reality for everyone.
    Just_Me_D likes this.
    07-23-2015 02:26 PM
  12. Haalcyon's Avatar
    So you think it wouldn't do to have a sign that said "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone without explanation. Request for service signifies knowledge and acceptance of this premise."
    Last edited by Haalcyon; 07-24-2015 at 12:23 AM.
    07-23-2015 07:52 PM
  13. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    So you it wouldn't do to have a sign that said "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone without explanation. Request for service signifies knowledge and acceptance of this premise."
    Even if there were to be totally legal, the business would still suffer if the media or some intolerant activist got wind that the people who were refused service was gay.
    07-23-2015 08:07 PM
  14. iOS Gravity's Avatar
    Even if there were to be totally legal, the business would still suffer if the media or some intolerant activist got wind that the people who were refused service was gay.
    People are always making a big deal about things on social media.
    07-23-2015 10:55 PM
  15. iOS Gravity's Avatar
    She could've just minded her business, but... http://www.buzzfeed.com/stephaniemcn...-s#.mydaYMy6Ak
    07-23-2015 10:57 PM
  16. Haalcyon's Avatar
    She could've just minded her business, but... http://www.buzzfeed.com/stephaniemcn...-s#.mydaYMy6Ak
    In America? Lol, yeah right.
    iOS Gravity likes this.
    07-24-2015 12:28 AM
  17. iOS Gravity's Avatar
    In America? Lol, yeah right.
    Come to think of it, my news apps have been blowing up with these types of stories. I mainly read buzzfeed since it feels more relaxed than a news story from CNN or the AP.
    07-24-2015 12:46 AM
  18. Haalcyon's Avatar
    I love a America but we're a country of Nosy Nannys.
    Evilguppy likes this.
    07-24-2015 07:12 AM
  19. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    As long as they refrain from verbally explaining the reason for refusal, they're good, but it's also a catch-22 because society, in general, will demand an explanation, and once that explanation is given, especially in regard to homosexuality, the business is screwed, in my opinion.
    Not sure about that.... if a business routinely denies service to a class (age, race, gender, sexual preference etc etc) and never state why. They are still on the hook. Their actions, past and present, make them suspect and litigation would be easy to prove.

    Pretty sure wait staff ignored black customers sitting at the lunch counter in the 60's...... that lets the restaurant off the hook for discrimination because they never verbally told the black customers they don't served "colored"?

    I don't think so.
    07-24-2015 09:41 AM
  20. sting7k's Avatar
    The attack on free speech has been under way here in the U.S. for quite some time now, but as of late, it's gotten even more ridiculous. It has gotten so bad to where a disagreeing reply is considered harassment or bullying and we've noticed this trend here at iMore on occasion. There is no understanding without some form of communication, but if we can't say anything for fear of offending then how will we ever be able to understand anyone? Anyway, how long before free speech is banned in America, if ever, in your opinion?
    Never.
    07-24-2015 10:00 AM
  21. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Not sure about that.... if a business routinely denies service to a class (age, race, gender, sexual preference etc etc) and never state why. They are still on the hook. Their actions, past and present, make them suspect and litigation would be easy to prove.
    Yes, if it could be proven that they intentionally targeted a particular class.

    Pretty sure wait staff ignored black customers sitting at the lunch counter in the 60's...... that lets the restaurant off the hook for discrimination because they never verbally told the black customers they don't served "colored"?

    I don't think so.
    I was there and experienced some of this as a kid, but the difference is this. We all knew where we were welcomed and where we were not. Signs were also clearly visible. Gays are not battling equal rights because they already have them. What is at stake is an acceptance that sexual / committing relationships with someone of the same sex is the norm when it is not, and anyone who disagrees is deemed bigoted, insensitive, intolerant, and should be punished until they accept it as the norm. Will some people get ticked at what I just wrote? I'm sure some will, but if they've been here a decent amount of time, they would know that I did not write this with malicious intent. I just call it like I see it. Anyway, I've got to prepare my iMore weekly update and then go to work. Take care and have a great weekend.
    Last edited by Just_Me_D; 07-24-2015 at 10:38 AM.
    07-24-2015 10:14 AM
  22. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    Gays are not battling equal rights because they already have them.
    I will have a great weekend... thanks, you too.

    Having equal rights is like getting a check from someone.... its only good if you can cash it for what its worth, if you can't, then its only a piece of paper.

    If the bakers told the gay couple that they were against gay marriage, disagreed with gay marriage (and a hundred other different ways) and made them a cake anyway...... this point of discussion would not exist IMO)...

    Something was different. They verbally incriminated themselves for the actions (or lack of thereof in this case) that followed.

    It wasn't what they said that got them in trouble..... its what they did that got them in trouble.

    Its my opinion of the hard facts of the case.... not the morality of it in the court of public opinion.
    07-24-2015 10:43 AM
  23. BreakingKayfabe's Avatar
    She could've just minded her business, but... http://www.buzzfeed.com/stephaniemcn...-s#.mydaYMy6Ak
    Not only could she have minded her own business, but she could have taken a hint.
    07-24-2015 10:51 AM
  24. Haalcyon's Avatar
    I don't think gays are disillusioned enough to think their lifestyle is what most would call "normal". They just want the same rights and to be treated like everyone else. That is going to take more than the few decades it's been in the public eye IMO, but we shall see. We have millennia of wiring that needs to be overcome.
    07-24-2015 11:00 AM
  25. iOS Gravity's Avatar
    07-24-2015 11:56 AM
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