The Confederate Battle Flag...

[iOS Gravity]

Ask yourself, "Should the German government fly flags with swastikas just because it's 'part of their history'?"

 

[anon(4698833)]

Ask yourself, "Should the German government fly flags with swastikas just because it's 'part of their history'?"

Totally different situation that has already been discussed. You gotta do better than that man...not to mention the swastika has been an iconic shape for thousands of years...long before the nazis decided to use it on their flag. The swastika itself, I feel, is wrongfully assigned as a purely evil shape because of what nazis did in it's shadow.

 

[iOS Gravity]

Totally different situation that has already been discussed. You gotta do better than that man...not to mention the swastika has been an iconic shape for thousands of years...long before the nazis decided to use it on their flag. The swastika itself, I feel, is wrongfully assigned as a purely evil shape because of what nazis did in it's shadow.

I know. Religions in certain countries are represented by swastikas. The same thing is being done with the confederate flag. It was just a flag for a separatist country. People now are using it to symbolize their evil deeds.

 

[iOS Gravity]

I know. Religions in certain countries are represented by swastikas. The same thing is being done with the confederate flag. It was just a flag for a separatist country. People now are using it to symbolize their evil deeds.

I guess it's the way that people choose to use these symbols that affects the way others interpret it. But the swastika or the confederate flag shouldn't be flown by a government entity in this type of situation. I'm not sure if I'm using the correct wording in this situation.

 

[anon(4698833)]

I know. Religions in certain countries are represented by swastikas. The same thing is being done with the confederate flag. It was just a flag for a separatist country. People now are using it to symbolize their evil deeds.

It was definitely NOT "just a flag for a separatist country"...and people use all kinds of things to symbolize evil deeds.

 

[freediverx]

We shouldn't hide this flag. We need to remember the past for all the mistakes that were made that led to it (including some of the very valid criticisms the South had with the North that didnt involve "dey're taekin mai free laborz")

There's a difference between displaying the flag in a book, museum or some other historical context and flying it to announce your "southern pride" or above a government building. The latter, regardless of intent, signals a defiant pride in the twisted values the flag has always represented. It's a big "F.U." to the country as if to say, "You may have won the war, but you're not going to change our culture or our belief in what we fought for." It's a troubling everyday reminder of the many atrocities that have been committed for a century and a half against African Americans and those who fought to defend them.

 

[freediverx]

Totally different situation that has already been discussed. You gotta do better than that man...not to mention the swastika has been an iconic shape for thousands of years...long before the nazis decided to use it on their flag. The swastika itself, I feel, is wrongfully assigned as a purely evil shape because of what nazis did in it's shadow.

It's all about context.

A swastika displayed in an eastern culture where it's readily recognized as a Hindu, Buddhist, or Jainist religious symbol is inoffensive and entirely appropriate. The only ones who might take offense in this environment would be Western tourists ignorant as to its local meaning. It should also be pointed out that while the basic swastika shape may be somewhat consistent, eastern cultures stylized it in an entirely different way than the Nazis.

A swastika displayed in the US is an entirely different matter. Unless it happens to be inside some Hindu or Buddhist temple or similar, it's meaning is quite clearly offensive and indicative of sociopathic intent.

 

[kilofoxtrot]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Just_Me_D]

There's a difference between displaying the flag in a book, museum or some other historical context and flying it to announce your "southern pride" or above a government building. The latter, regardless of intent, signals a defiant pride in the twisted values the flag has always represented. It's a big "F.U." to the country as if to say, "You may have won the war, but you're not going to change our culture or our belief in what we fought for." It's a troubling everyday reminder of the many atrocities that have been committed for a century and a half against African Americans and those who fought to defend them.

Bullcrap! The Confederate flag does not evoke any emotion within 'me' whatsoever. It's doesn't remind me of anything or anyone so for you to say that "it's a troubling everyday reminder of the many atrocities that have been committed for a century and a half against...." is a bunch of crock, with the exception of how 'you' may feel about it. This black man isn't affected at all by it. I have come to terms with our nation's past, as well as life itself. I understand that evil exists and can sometimes cause good people to do bad things, as well as cause bad people to continue doing bad things. Trying to bury the past will only encourage others to dig it up because we all seek the truth even if we end up rejecting it. Okay, I'm done venting....

 

[anon(4698833)]

There's a difference between displaying the flag in a book, museum or some other historical context and flying it to announce your "southern pride" or above a government building. The latter, regardless of intent, signals a defiant pride in the twisted values the flag has always represented. It's a big "F.U." to the country as if to say, "You may have won the war, but you're not going to change our culture or our belief in what we fought for." It's a troubling everyday reminder of the many atrocities that have been committed for a century and a half against African Americans and those who fought to defend them.

But you continue to look at this by picking and choosing what you want it to represent, instead of as a whole...similarly to the way people who are against this flag are fully supportive of the US flag. Atrocities were done under both banners...and progression was had under both banners.

It's all about context.

A swastika displayed in an eastern culture where it's readily recognized as a Hindu, Buddhist, or Jainist religious symbol is inoffensive and entirely appropriate. The only ones who might take offense in this environment would be Western tourists ignorant as to its local meaning. It should also be pointed out that while the basic swastika shape may be somewhat consistent, eastern cultures stylized it in an entirely different way than the Nazis.

A swastika displayed in the US is an entirely different matter. Unless it happens to be inside some Hindu or Buddhist temple or similar, it's meaning is quite clearly offensive and indicative of sociopathic intent.

That is a dangerous assumption. Hypothetically, what if you came into my house and I had a swastika somewhere in my home...you would assume I am sociopathic and represent the evil you've assigned to the icon. But what if I am a practicing hindu or buddhist? You might not know my interest or investment in it...but because you have an assumptive approach to it, you'd assume the worse, and would misrepresent me as a person of bigotry and "evil"...when it is nothing of the sort.

The same can be said about the confederate flag (and battle flag)...do many people represent it in an evil manner? Absolutely. Do many people present it to others as a symbol of hatred, bigotry and intolerance? No doubt. But you can't assume that is why it exists in every situation...you can't assign that kind of assumptive approach to every person who flies it because in doing so, you're being prejudice yourself.

Would you tell this guy that he's a racist and bigot because he's proudly flying the flag? He was a former chapter president in the NAACP, civil rights leader and activist...and defender of the flag.

 

[kilofoxtrot]

People are mixing the right to fly the flag personally and a government entity flying the flag.

Two different issues IMO.

 

[Just_Me_D]

People are mixing the right to fly the flag personally and a government entity flying the flag.

Two different issues IMO.

No. Certain people, not necessarily in this thread, are demanding that the Confederate flag be removed altogether. Some states have or are in the process of removing confederate license plates. The problem I have is not the actual removal of the flag, as long as each State allows for the people's vote to decide, but with certain people wanting it removed after the SC incident, as if the flag had something to do with it. Furthermore, prior to that incident, the flag was a non-issue.

 

[kilofoxtrot]

No. Certain people, not necessarily in this thread, are demanding that the Confederate flag be removed altogether.

Altogether? As in private and government buildings?

 

[Just_Me_D]

Altogether? As in private and government buildings?

Yes sir.

 

[anon(39328)]

No. Certain people, not necessarily in this thread, are demanding that the Confederate flag be removed altogether. Some states have or are in the process of removing confederate license plates. The problem I have is not the actual removal of the flag, as long as each State allows for the people's vote to decide, but with certain people wanting it removed after the SC incident, as if the flag had something to do with it. Furthermore, prior to that incident, the flag was a non-issue.

Not exactly correct. The confederate flag flying on state property in many southern states has been a frequent debate topic for years. It comes up about as often as the debate over the Redskins. I think the reason why it has been a particular sore spot for many in SC is because this particular flag was raised in the 60s during the civil rights movement. During this time, many SC politicians were rallying against desegregation. Many people believe it was raised to show defiance against the U.S. Government over desegregation.

 

[kilofoxtrot]

"Herein lies the problem with symbols: They have no inherent meanings; they have only whatever meanings people choose to read into them, and different people can associate very different meanings with the same symbol. The Confederate battle flag is now regarded in many different ways ? as a symbol of slavery, as a rallying banner for white supremacists, as a quaint historical artifact, as a memorial to those who fought gallantly and bravely (even if it was in the service of cause no longer considered virtuous), as a general emblem of rebellion against authority, as a benign display of regional pride, or even as a fond reminder of two ?good ol? boys? who were ?never meanin? no harm.?

It is true that for several decades after the Civil War, the Confederate battle flag was not widely perceived as a negative symbol. Its use was largely limited to historical ceremonies associated with veterans? events and war memorials; the flag did not become the symbol most prominently associated with the Confederacy until several decades after the Civil War ended, and it was not widely perceived as a politically polarizing symbol until it was appropriated by segregationist politicians and groups in the middle of the twentieth century.

However, the fact remains that the Confederate battle flag has long since become the pre-eminent symbol of the Confederacy and what it stood for, and across the span of several decades it has been co-opted by segregationist and white supremacist groups such as the Dixiecrats, the KKK, and the Aryan Nation.

Certainly one can be a racist or a white supremacist without associating himself with ?Southern Pride? or a Confederate battle flag, but for better or worse, no one group is any more ?authorized? to use the Confederate battle flag as their symbol than another: the Confederate government and its military forces ceased to exist 150+ years ago and therefore have no say or control over the usage of the Southern Cross.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans may sincerely object to the Confederate battle flag?s use by Neo-Nazis, skinheads, and other extremist groups, and perhaps some of the men who fought and died for the Confederacy would as well if they were alive today. But just as with the swastika, it?s likely to be a very, very long time before that symbol can be reclaimed and regarded in anything approaching a neutral manner, and probably not until the social issues underlying the public perception of that symbol have been more thoroughly canvassed."

- David Mikkelson

 

[Just_Me_D]

Not exactly correct. The confederate flag flying on state property in many southern states has been a frequent debate topic for years.

That is true, but aside from various activists, the typical John and Jane Doe could care less about it, in my opinion and my experience.

It comes up about as often as the debate over the Redskins.

My above comments also applies to this.

I think the reason why it has been a particular sore spot for many in SC is because this particular flag was raised in the 60s during the civil rights movement. During this time, many SC politicians were rallying against desegregation. Many people believe it was raised to show defiance against the U.S. Government over desegregation.

That flag has been flying throughout the entire South for all of my 52 years and throughout those years, I've seen non-whites riding up and down numerous roads having a blast with their friends in vehicles with that flag draped all over the back windshield or flying on a pole attached to those vehicles. I've seen non-whites participate in civil war re-enactments as depicted in the photo Sean posted as well as see them enter the homes of people who invited them while the flag was flying proudly out front. The flag itself is not an issue for everyday Americans, in my opinion and experience.

 

[Just_Me_D]

Let me clarify something. Sean asked the below question in post #1:

"So I'm curious how many of you are truly offended by this flag?"

My stance is this: I am not offended in any way, shape or form by the Confederate flag. Furthermore, until the senseless murder inside the Church in S.C. recently, the flag itself was a non-issue. Granted, there have been debates and discussions about the flag over the years. No doubt about it. Having said that, to everyday Americans, it's a mere inanimate object with a history that has no effect on them whatsoever, in my opinion. I don't care what the flag represents historically, as some have put it. To me and many others, it and its history are not impeding me in any way today, and I've seen too many instances of people who fly that flag sharing a fondness towards those who do not and vice-versa. That is the perspective that I'm replying with in regard to this topic.

 

[anon(4698833)]

I was called a back woods redneck the other day because I had a huge American flag hanging off the back of my Wrangler when we drove up to see fireworks on the 4th and I stopped at a gas station to get ice. I actually laughed profoundly at them, loud enough to where they heard me, and then drove away loving that big *** flag on the back of my Jeep even more.

Why?

Because people are idiots. People see me driving a lifted Jeep Wrangler with a flag flying off the back of it, and they start their "guilty by association" thoughts placing me in the same company as the people who they have found hatred for who do the same thing with the battle flag.

These same people demanding that prejudice and profiling is stopped by others against them...all the while doing it themselves.

I got a kick out of it...especially since old glory is apparently a symbol of tolerance to many people, and the confederate battle flag is some kind of evil icon that deserves to be torn down and burned. These same people can't even be bothered to take the time to look at what kind of flag a guy with a jeep is flying for the 4th of July, instead taking pot shots while celebrating the same cause, lol!

That's why I feel so strongly about this issue with the battle flag. It's the same difference...people are too caught up in the hive mind thought process that they fail to see the logic right in front of them...and while I don't chastise someone for having negative opinions of anything they truly passionately object to...I have zero respect for people who do it with no real understanding of the issue (or lack there of).

 

[kilofoxtrot]

Let me clarify something. Sean asked the below question in post #1:

"So I'm curious how many of you are truly offended by this flag?"

I am not offended....... but I am white man in America, you can't even hurt my feelings let alone offend me.