The Confederate Battle Flag...

[mmcfly23]

Most lived and grew up together. The kids played together. There were a few bad apples. But, yeah, most plantation owners treated them well. It was a way of life. After slavery was abolished, many slaves stayed where they were. It was home. The biggest tragedy was the 300,000 African slaves that died on the way across the Atlantic of disease or overcrowding. A third of them died.

The slaves stayed where they were because they had no choice. They weren't seen as equals in this society. My mother's side of the family is from the south, while my father and his family is from the west indies. 2 parents, 2 different languages, yet the stories from both are very similar (as far as how blacks and slaves were treated). I don't want to hijack this thread and make it about slavery, however to say that slavery wasn't that bad in America is laughable at best.

 

[Ledsteplin]

The slaves stayed where they were because they had no choice. They weren't seen as equals in this society. My mother's side of the family is from the south, while my father and his family is from the west indies. 2 parents, 2 different languages, yet the stories from both are very similar (as far as how blacks and slaves were treated). I don't want to hijack this thread and make it about slavery, however to say that slavery wasn't that bad in America is laughable at best.

Many didn't have a choice. Some did. And many that did stay were given land. I'm not saying nothing bad ever happened or that it was OK. Just that it wasn't all like in 'Roots'.

 

[Just_Me_D]

1.) Factually Incorrect. I DO know that he felt the vast majority of Asians appeared to have been hit in the face with a hard object. The result of which made them quite repulsive. To him at least. That much, with regards to his opinions, I know to be factually true.

That statement/opinion does not prove that he hated Asians. Come on, man. You know this!

2.) Factually Correct. But I do have some measure of corroborating evidence to support my opinion.

What 'evidence'? The statement above is not evidence of hatred.

5.) That was my "initiation" into the prevailing culture. So it was the one that had the most impact on me mentally. There aren't enough pages on this cite to cover every example of the next decade and more. I could give you one from this past April where a Merrill Lynch Broker asked that we not send my partner to a meeting in Kentucky because he felt the client would object to the Jewishness or my colleague. Needless to say we advise him that if his client had/has a problem with my partner's ethnicity, we are not interested in taking him on a client. But it caused us to wonder, in the office, was it the client who had a problem with Jews or was it the ML Broker.

I understand, but even the example you use here is not an example of hatred. It's like being in the advertising business and you have to choose between a good looking white person with perfect teeth and a good looking black person with crooked teeth to be featured smiling on a billboard. Are you being racist for not picking the black person or is it a smart business decision?

6.) One could argue that cowardice is not acknowledging the atrocities of the American slave trade, and the impact that period in history still has on AA in this country.

No one in this thread has stated or even indicated that American slavery wasn't a bad thing, but to sit here and conclude that it was the worst form of slavery ever without even considering the slavery that still exist is, well, intolerant and ignorant.

One could feasibly argue that statements such as "American slavery was a cake walk compared..." "Most slaves were treated as family members..." derives from the fear or cowardice of facing the awful truth of the situation. And it's ongoing legacy...

If slavery lasted in America for 246 years (if you count 1619 to 1865), how does that compare to nations where it is still ongoing?

I don't live in SC. I don't know how all African Americans in SC feel about the flag. I do know that some have voiced a very vocal opposition to it.

And I personally know of some who live in SC that is not bothered by the Confederate flag.

Guessing as to what some feel or don't feel without any evidence to support it is an exercise in futility.

To me at least.

What's an exercise in futility is taking an incident and tying it to an inanimate national symbol as if that same inanimate symbol told the disturbed killer to enter that Church and slaughter 9 people. Another symbol has been the target of nefarious people in the same manner as the symbol of authority (police). Known criminals are portrayed as Saints whereas police are portrayed as known criminals. Marriage is now portrayed as a mere contract that anyone consenting adult can enter and leave at will regardless of gender preference. The Bible and the Constitution are now portrayed as 'outdated', 'old-fashioned', 'oppressive', 'hate-filled', and unimportant. See the pattern?

 

[Just_Me_D]

The slaves stayed where they were because they had no choice. They weren't seen as equals in this society. My mother's side of the family is from the south, while my father and his family is from the west indies. 2 parents, 2 different languages, yet the stories from both are very similar (as far as how blacks and slaves were treated). I don't want to hijack this thread and make it about slavery, however to say that slavery wasn't that bad in America is laughable at best.

Keep in mind that when you're born into a situation, it's usually all you know, and thus, it's just normal life. People who were born free and then sold into slavery, now that's a different story because they have something to compare it to and the situation would indeed be far more horrible. Is that a fair statement to make?

 

[mmcfly23]

Keep in mind that when you're born into a situation, it's usually all you know, and thus, it's just normal life. People who were born free and then sold into slavery, now that's a difference story because they have something to compare it to and the situation would indeed be far more horrible. Is that a fair statement to make?

That's fair, however that doesn't negate my argument on slavery "not being that bad in America". Especially considering there's plenty of evidence stating otherwise (heck HBO had a documentary years ago on former slaves that were interviewed post slavery that talked about how horrible things were). Post slavery blacks were still getting lynched, raped, businesses destroyed, harassed, for no reason other than being black. I really wish our education system would shine more light on atrocities committed on this land.


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[Bigeric23]

While the Confederate flag does not bother me, I try to think like this:

"I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died" (Romans 14:14-15).

 

[Just_Me_D]

That's fair, however that doesn't negate my argument on slavery "not being that bad in America". Especially considering there's plenty of evidence stating otherwise (heck HBO had a documentary years ago on former slaves that were interviewed post slavery that talked about how horrible things were). Post slavery blacks were still getting lynched, raped, businesses destroyed, harassed, for no reason other than being black. I really wish our education system would shine more light on atrocities committed on this land.


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What you stated is true, but I did not state that slavery wasn't that bad in America. I stated that it was foolish to conclude that it was the worst kind of slavery ever, especially compared to the slavery that's still going on elsewhere. I'm not downplaying American slavery, but I am trying to put it in its proper perspective among worldwide slavery. I hope that made sense...

 

[Just_Me_D]

While the Confederate flag does not bother me, I try to think like this:

"I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died" (Romans 14:14-15).

Well-stated, sir. Unfortunately, not everyone believes...

 

[Soeasy]

1.) That statement/opinion does not prove that he hated Asians. Come on, man. You know this!

2.) I understand, but even the example you use here is not an example of hatred. It's like you're being in the advertising business and you have to choose between a good looking white person with perfect teeth and a good looking black person with crooked teeth to be featured smiling on a billboard. Are you being racist for not picked the black person or is it a smart business decision?

3.) No one in this thread has stated or even indicated that American slavery wasn't a bad thing, but to sit here and conclude that it was the worst form of slavery ever without even considering the slavery that still exist is, well, intolerant and ignorant.

4.) If slavery lasted in America for 246 years (if you count 1619 to 1865), how does that compare to nations where it is still ongoing?

5.) And I personally know of some who live in SC that is not bothered by the Confederate flag.

6.) Known criminals are portrayed as Saints whereas police are portrayed as known criminals.

7.) Marriage is now portrayed as a mere contract that anyone consenting adult can enter and leave at will regardless of gender preference.

8.) The Bible and the Constitution are now portrayed as 'outdated', 'old-fashioned', 'oppressive', 'hate-filled', and unimportant. See the pattern?

1.) No, I'm sorry, I really don't.

2.) This is flawed. He didn't say my partner shouldn't come because he had crooked teeth. He said my partner being Jewish might be offensive to the client. My partner has perfect teeth. He uses the same Iranian Dentist that I use. And truth be told. If he walked past you on Park Ave you wouldn't be able to distinguish him from any other white guy walking down the Ave. So why would the Merril Lynch guy "assume" that the client in Kentucky would be offended by a Jew at the meeting? Stop pretending man.

This is America. We have an obligation to stand up and say if you discriminate for it's own sake, we as American will not tolerate this and you will not prosper here.

3 & 4.) Who in this thread has actually stated that American Slavery was the worst ever. Please, show me that post. And what does one thing have to do with another anyway. Why does if have to be the 'worst' as you put for some to say that it was wrong.

Why does it have to be a matter of extremely this or that?

5.) And they are abosolutley correct. My argument is about it's hanging at the State Capital funded by tax payers.

6.) Let's live in Reality. Some cops ARE criminals and should never have been given a badge. I'm a big supporter of the NYPD, but bad cops should be found and removed because historically they'll always do more harm than good.

7.) What do I care who chooses to get married? The history of the marriage license was never about religious purpose. It was about property rights and inheritance. Read up on this. This is factually true.

In fact, for many years after the founding of this country, Common-law marriage was the law of the land. No one needed a license to get married.

The purpose of the "marriage license" movement and blood tests(which is now illegal) was largely to prevent blacks from marrying whites. I wonder if you actually knew this or not.

8.) What does the Bible have to do with anything? And whose bible anyway? My Jewish partner has his own "bible". My Iranian dentist proably also has his own. Both are good men. So, what does that bible have to do with anything?

 

[anon(4698833)]

I mean no disrespect to you Sean. I like and enjoy reading your posts. But, this actually a terrible analogy to make.

It was a perfectly rational analogy...I never said mexicans were slaves, I said they were being done an injustice by being compensated so poorly for their service...and if we decided that this is something to be scoffed at as a truly evil doing and ban it from happening...do we look at this decision in 50 years as something that our current flags "reflect" like people are trying to inflect on the confederate battle flag?

I never compared the two injustices...I simply used it as a hypothetical scenario. A negatively viewed event that is happening in the shadow of our current flags.

Your primary issue seems to be in light of this flag being flown at a facility that is funded by "tax payers"...and this is interesting to me, mainly because I fail to see the point you're trying to make by defining this. The confederate battle flag is NOT flown at state buildings...a variant that pays homage to the flag by a specific design while also remaining relevant to whichever state it is being flown in in that instance...it's flown in this nature because of relevance to the original confederate states and the echoes those states made to the country we live in now (good and bad).

So what difference does it make that tax payers fund these buildings? Do you realize that when you make such a statement, you reflect ALL tax payers...including those historically invested in said flag? Have you read about this man? I'm sure he'd have something to say about your complaint that tax payers shouldn't have to see this flag at state buildings.

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2015/06...-place-of-honor-dignity-with-this-flag-218009

 

[anon(4698833)]

Has anyone brought up the fact that this is NOT the Confederate flag? It's a battle flag, which I think started in Tennessee. It's not even the official flag flown by the CSA.

Did you bother to read the title of this thread? Because I don't think you did...

And it was first used by the Army of Northern Virginia if you want technical accuracy...and then used throughout the confederacy on the battle field in all confederate states.

 

[ctt1wbw]

Jeez, sooo-ree.

 

[ctt1wbw]

That's fair, however that doesn't negate my argument on slavery "not being that bad in America". Especially considering there's plenty of evidence stating otherwise (heck HBO had a documentary years ago on former slaves that were interviewed post slavery that talked about how horrible things were). Post slavery blacks were still getting lynched, raped, businesses destroyed, harassed, for no reason other than being black. I really wish our education system would shine more light on atrocities committed on this land.


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Kinda like in Chicago, Baltimore, Memphis, Compton, The Pork and Beans...

 

[mmcfly23]

Kinda like in Chicago, Baltimore, Memphis, Compton, The Pork and Beans...

Huh?


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[anon(4698833)]

I really wish our education system would shine more light on atrocities committed on this land.

There are a lot of things that children are shielded from in terms of historic atrocities...unfortunately, man kind has a pretty overwhelmingly negative track record when it comes to history, so to be fair, if you wanted the "education system" to be fair about what it teaches our youth, you'd have to accept that they'd probably only have time to learn about the negative aspects of our societies history, since there was so damn much of it.

I think if people really understood just how encompassing and spectrum wide slavery actually was, society would probably be far more inclined to move away from victimization and/or elitism and would figure out that at a base line, our ancestors pretty much all faced these kinds of atrocities at some point, yielding a common goal instead of a segregated type of scenario we have today.

 

[BreakingKayfabe]

It's the flag of an enemy nation at best.

I think it's more a flag of treason. South wanted to secede (treason), formed the Confederacy (treason), and that flag represented the Confederacy (treason).

As far as the question Sean pointed out goes, am I offended by it? No. But I absolutely can understand why people are offended by it. But you're not going to hide this from our history. I'm just a guy born and raised in Southern California, though. Considering that this is just a flag, I don't think I have any right to say whether or not a state should fly it over a government building because I AM NOT A CITIZEN OF THAT STATE. Let the people of each individual state decide that.

That !diot that committed those murders would have done so whether the Confederate flag existed or not. Typical racist 'neck like Sean pointed out in his OP. The symbol of a flag isn't going to prevent people like that. And I don't think much can change it. I'm cynical like that. You can't change people's family traditions and values and how they raise their kids. I've heard of southerners who still re-enact Civil War battles in their backyards wearing their ancestors Confederate uniforms.

When our generation and the generation after that is dead, that's when there will start to be a difference. The history of this country is still very young.

 

[anon(4698833)]

We can thank those treasonous people for the country we love today...from the get go.

 

[BreakingKayfabe]

We can thank them for the popularity NASCAR, as well. So I'll take the good with the bad.

 

[BreakingKayfabe]

And this

 

[anon(4698833)]

Easily washed by these things...