The Jordanian pilot

[palandri]

palandri...one thing to consider is the various groups we've had in our country for quite a long time who would DEFINITELY jump right in line with a group like ISIS if the opportunity presented itself. Groups like the Sovereign Citizens...a group that I have personally dealt with when I was a LEO. This group has the numbers right now, they just don't have the means because most of them join the group because of government taxation issues they've experienced over the years (cited from an ICE report from over a decade ago).

They create their own "official" ID's, which are damn close to government official ID cards when glanced at first, you have to really read the info on the card to see the differences. This one I'm attaching was actually a poorer example of their efforts...I've seen some that look like military ID cards, GSA smart cards, etc...

View attachment 77254

...these people, with the right motivation, would be a very dangerous tool for infiltration, and they're everywhere. We had an IRS building that had these guys visiting WEEKLY wanting to protest...this was at an outpost IRS BRANCH office, not some headquarters...and in Atlanta. One city, one office...a handful of incidents from people who have been known to violently make their voices heard. Imagine if they were backed with ISIS funding, weapons and thoughts.

This isn't some conspiracy my friend.

A couple of things.

Are you saying a far right wing reactionary group like the Sovereign Citizens or any splinter group of Sovereign Citizens would align themselves with ISIS? That's how I am reading it. I just don't see a far right wing reactionary group ever aligning themselves with ISIS. There would just be too much hatred towards Muslims in general.

I added splinter groups of of Sovereign Citizens, because some of these far right wing reactionary group don't call themselves Sovereign Citizens, but follow a similar thought process on some or all of the issues that Sovereign Citizens do. If you think about the Bundy Ranch, I think they only recognized the county Sheriff. Do You remember Free Men? They declared themselves a sovereign state and not subject to taxation. Randy Weaver was part of the Covenant, Sword and Arm of the Lord, which was more of a white power waiting for the apocalypse group, but were anti-government extremist.

That ABC news ID card you're showing says, "State of Indiana" which makes it illegal to produce. I am surprised they would add "State" to it. I ran into a similar situation with an ID card that said Minnesota ID card, which looked like an official state of Minnesota ID card, but wasn't. They were being sold by a check cashing service. The Attorney General office in Minnesota told us there was nothing they could do about it, since it didn't say State of.

 

[Just_Me_D]

A couple of things.

Are you saying a far right wing reactionary group like the Sovereign Citizens or any splinter group of Sovereign Citizens would align themselves with ISIS? That's how I am reading it. I just don't see a far right wing reactionary group ever aligning themselves with ISIS. There would just be too much hatred towards Muslims in general.

I added splinter groups of of Sovereign Citizens, because some of these far right wing reactionary group don't call themselves Sovereign Citizens, but follow a similar thought process on some or all of the issues that Sovereign Citizens do. If you think about the Bundy Ranch, I think they only recognized the county Sheriff. Do You remember Free Men? They declared themselves a sovereign state and not subject to taxation. Randy Weaver was part of the Covenant, Sword and Arm of the Lord, which was more of a white power waiting for the apocalypse group, but were anti-government extremist.

That ABC news ID card you're showing says, "State of Indiana" which makes it illegal to produce. I am surprised they would add "State" to it. I ran into a similar situation with an ID card that said Minnesota ID card, which looked like an official state of Minnesota ID card, but wasn't. They were being sold by a check cashing service. The Attorney General office in Minnesota told us there was nothing they could do about it, since it didn't say State of.

Why does he have to be "far right wing"? Couldn't he be "far left wing"?

 

[palandri]

Why does he have to be "far right wing"? Couldn't he be "far left wing"?

I am not sure what you're asking. Sean was specifically talking about Sovereign Citizens, which are a far right reactionary groups. Of course there are also far left wing revolutionary groups, but they don't fall into the Sovereign Citizens grouping.

Heck, in this forum I am looked at as a crazy, stupid, idiotic far left wing, pinko socialist simply because I am in a labor union and vote Democrat.

 

[Just_Me_D]

I am not sure what you're asking. Sean was specifically talking about Sovereign Citizens, which are a far right reactionary groups. Of course there are also far left wing revolutionary groups, but they don't fall into the Sovereign Citizens grouping.

Heck, in this forum I am looked at as a crazy, stupid, idiotic far left wing, pinko socialist simply because I am in a labor union and vote Democrat.

You're all good with me, Palandri......Anyway, in regard to my question, it was just a stab in regard to the term, "right wing". Far too many people use it to display an association with Republicans and Conservatives whether the person is or not.

 

[anon(4698833)]

A couple of things.

Are you saying a far right wing reactionary group like the Sovereign Citizens or any splinter group of Sovereign Citizens would align themselves with ISIS? That's how I am reading it. I just don't see a far right wing reactionary group ever aligning themselves with ISIS. There would just be too much hatred towards Muslims in general.

I added splinter groups of of Sovereign Citizens, because some of these far right wing reactionary group don't call themselves Sovereign Citizens, but follow a similar thought process on some or all of the issues that Sovereign Citizens do. If you think about the Bundy Ranch, I think they only recognized the county Sheriff. Do You remember Free Men? They declared themselves a sovereign state and not subject to taxation. Randy Weaver was part of the Covenant, Sword and Arm of the Lord, which was more of a white power waiting for the apocalypse group, but were anti-government extremist.

That ABC news ID card you're showing says, "State of Indiana" which makes it illegal to produce. I am surprised they would add "State" to it. I ran into a similar situation with an ID card that said Minnesota ID card, which looked like an official state of Minnesota ID card, but wasn't. They were being sold by a check cashing service. The Attorney General office in Minnesota told us there was nothing they could do about it, since it didn't say State of.

I feel that you're candy coating them a little bit. They are every bit a group of anti-government extremists. They feel the U.S. government is an illegitimate entity with no actual "right" to instruct them in law or regulation.

We found that many of them take on new names after their conversion to full on sovereign citizen...many which were in the nature a muslim will change his name which reflects servitude under allah. It got a little weird sometimes, because we had english based names which were constructed in a similar way, but with uncommon combinations...IE: Christopher Rashid Isa Zakariya(sp?) These, to me, were used as a tactic employed to project a kind of fear on westerners by association with the types of names we hear in terrorist attacks, which are pretty much all muslim equivalents.

Do I feel they would side with ISIS? I really do. I don't think it would be in the way one would traditionally think though. I feel that ISIS presents groups of people with very healthy bank accounts and strategic mental weapons. They sell ideas...and their cores are really not all that different, the major defining differential being the religious value groups like ISIS hold over all other things, where as groups like the Sovereign Citizens seem to be more focused and concerned with governing legitimacies and restoring assumed "rights" to it's people. They don't really seem to have a core religious similarity that I could ever really see.

Honestly...I think the combination of the two would be more of a common strengthening than anything else. All it would really take is a group of sleeper cell ISIS members selling a group of sovereign citizens on a similar "goal" and I feel it would be done. A similar goal of say diminishing the functionality of the US government in pockets by distractive measures and petty crimes. Now personally, I don't think this would be very successful given it is already known to be a tool they'd employ, but that's one move out of about a million that could be employed.

I also think the sovereign citizens would EASILY move to a more violent entity if coerced. Would they start beheading government workers? I doubt it, but I could certainly see them attacking in more broad and damaging ways (bombings would not be out of the realm I could see them entering).

 

[hydrogen3]

"What does the U.S. need to be doing in addition to what it is doing right now?"



I'd like you to answer Bob's question. So far you haven't.

We are bombing ISIS pretty much everyday.

Do you want us to send troops back to the theatre???

Yes, we need troops on the ground. Take the gloves off and fight to win.


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[anon(4698833)]

Yes, we need troops on the ground. Take the gloves off and fight to win.


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I don't feel troops on the ground really solves this issue at all personally...because there is a serious lack of an official battle to fight on the ground, our troops end up just becoming heavily weaponized police officers, and that is not a satisfactory use of their abilities in my opinion, and puts them in unnecessary and dangerous situations that local people should be handling, or putting their own leaders in charge of handling.

Over there, presence really isn't a deterring factor like it is here or in other parts of the world. To me, the only real way you start making progress with ISIS is much deeper than just attacking them...you have to change the mind set of the people around them.

 

[hydrogen3]

I don't feel troops on the ground really solves this issue at all personally...because there is a serious lack of an official battle to fight on the ground, our troops end up just becoming heavily weaponized police officers, and that is not a satisfactory use of their abilities in my opinion, and puts them in unnecessary and dangerous situations that local people should be handling, or putting their own leaders in charge of handling.

Over there, presence really isn't a deterring factor like it is here or in other parts of the world. To me, the only real way you start making progress with ISIS is much deeper than just attacking them...you have to change the mind set of the people around them.

My question. How do we change the mind set of these people? I think they will fight us to the bitter end.


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[anon(4698833)]

My question. How do we change the mind set of these people? I think they will fight us to the bitter end.


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You show me the guy who figures that out and you'll be looking at the guy who ends the turmoil in the middle east. I think it's an impossible mission personally, which is why I personally think the kinds of responses we have to use are dreadfully destructive and put a lot of innocent lives in mortal danger and may still not work completely. Unfortunately, it's all we really have aside from putting our military in policing mode again, where many of them will be killed, and we'll start that vicious cycle again that we saw in Afghanistan.

Tactical strikes will kills innocent men, women and children...it will also kill ISIS members. Will it STOP ISIS? I really really doubt it. But a hope that I personally have is that after a while...when a lot of innocent people have been vaporized by other countries trying to stop ISIS, the local people will start changing their mind because they'll want the strikes to stop...and MAYBE, they'll start a revolt against ISIS from within.

This is a hope though. So far, after decades of being in that region and fighting dictators, terrorists groups and insurgents with similar tactics...the locals have maintained their "stay out of it but oppose it when asked" stance, and that stance does NOTHING in terms of really implementing any legitimate change...it just means they'll keep dying one way or another.

 

[kilofoxtrot]

They need to be pounded financially too...

 

[anon(631531)]

Conventional saturation bombing, and lots of it, will kill ISIS and, unfortunately, lots of civilians. Notice that i didn't use the term "innocent civilians". There were plenty of people in the streets who were cheering for ISIS, and waving their damn black flags. I also remember cheering crowds in Somalia, while are men were dragged through the streets by their feet. Something comes to mind, from back in the day, that i believe is the perfect solution. KILL THEM ALL, AND LET GOD SORT THEM OUT. This works for me.:yes::yes::yes:

 

[palandri]

Conventional saturation bombing, and lots of it, will kill ISIS and, unfortunately, lots of civilians. Notice that i didn't use the term "innocent civilians". There were plenty of people in the streets who were cheering for ISIS, and waving their damn black flags. I also remember cheering crowds in Somalia, while are men were dragged through the streets by their feet. Something comes to mind, from back in the day, that i believe is the perfect solution. KILL THEM ALL, AND LET GOD SORT THEM OUT. This works for me.:yes::yes::yes:

You may want to look up the word genocide, and then review what happened at the Nuremberg Tribunal.

 

[anon(631531)]

You may want to look up the word genocide, and then review what happened at the Nuremberg Tribunal.

I learned about the N?remberg Trials when i was a kid. A man in my Brooklyn neighborhood had numbers tattooed on his arm. He told us Christians about the concentration camps. When i said "kill them all", i was referring to ISIS and their followers, most of which are in Syria and Iraq. Civilian casualties? I've seem them before, and i believe that the end justifies the means. If we woke up some morning and Syria didn't exist, who would cry, you? In almost every place in the world, there would be dancing in the streets. It's time that America put on it's big boy pants, and started acting like the world leader that we should be, and not an ally of the Muslim world. Semper Fi.:yes:

 

[ctt1wbw]

I am not sure what you're asking. Sean was specifically talking about Sovereign Citizens, which are a far right reactionary groups. Of course there are also far left wing revolutionary groups, but they don't fall into the Sovereign Citizens grouping.

Heck, in this forum I am looked at as a crazy, stupid, idiotic far left wing, pinko socialist simply because I am in a labor union and vote Democrat.

You said it perfectly.

 

[kch50428]

A long, but worthwhile read... What ISIS Really Wants - The Atlantic

 

[pappy53]

And now the White House says that we can't get rid of ISIS by killing them, but we need to find them a job.


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[hydrogen3]

need to find them a job.

Be-headers apply with in...

Thats one hell a job qualification..