1. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    In no way would I think that you are for killing innocent people.

    However you still haven't answered Bob's question..... all you offered is criticism and blame.
    Bluntly put...Stop effin' around for show purposes and get serious about dealing with the threat we face. Period. I don't need to get into specifics, if that's what you're after, because that would take care of itself if BHO ever decide to get serious about dealing with our enemies.
    02-09-2015 09:49 PM
  2. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    Bluntly put...Stop effin' around for show purposes and get serious about dealing with the threat we face. Period. I don't need to get into specifics, if that's what you're after, because that would take care of itself if BHO ever decide to get serious about dealing with our enemies.
    I think that you would have to kill the entire population of ISIS held territory if you wanted to take ISIS down from the air based on their tactics you mentioned earlier. But it would only be temporary IMO.

    Boots hold ground, not aircraft.

    And there is the problem.... many Iraqi units deserted and fled when ISIS invaded their country. Why should our men and women die for those who won't protect themselves?

    Supposing we send our troops into Iraq, wipe out ISIS. What do you think will happen as soon as we leave? We know what happened the first time.

    Fool me once shame on you... fool me twice shame on me.
    BobLobIaw and Les74 like this.
    02-09-2015 09:58 PM
  3. Nathan Bael's Avatar
    I see your point, Keith, but empathy isn't sympathy. In addition, Clinton certainly isn't saying anyone should be "nice" to terrorists. The context is in applying a negotiated peaceful settlement between enemies. The U.S. has a long-standing policy of not negotiating with terrorists, so her comments are not applicable to terrorists. She's just talking about Mediation 101 principles applied to foreign policy and seems to be suggesting that females have more empathy than men. I don't know for sure without hearing more of her address.
    The problem with that is that she directly referenced the Islamic state in the Philippines, at least as I understood her speech.
    02-09-2015 09:59 PM
  4. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    I think that you would have to kill the entire population of ISIS held territory if you wanted to take ISIS down from the air based on their tactics you mentioned earlier. But it would only be temporary IMO.

    Boots hold ground, not aircraft.

    And there is the problem.... many Iraqi units deserted and fled when ISIS invaded their country. Why should our men and women die for those who won't protect themselves?

    Supposing we send our troops into Iraq, wipe out ISIS. What do you think will happen as soon as we leave? We know what happened the first time.

    Fool me once shame on you... fool me twice shame on me.
    I'm concerned about protecting us here in our homeland and doing it before they get here and cause havoc. These people are serious, and we can't treat their threats and intentions like a typical law enforcement matter. Anyway, it's time for me to log off, and as always, I appreciate you sharing your viewpoints. Take care and have a great night...
    02-09-2015 10:07 PM
  5. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    Take care and have a great night...
    Good night to you as well.
    02-09-2015 10:13 PM
  6. grunt0300's Avatar
    The U.A.E has joined the fight against ISIS. They are bombing their areas as of today. It's sad to say, but killing a Jordanian pilot in a gruesome way, is what it took to get a "good" Muslim country stirred up. Now, let all the countries get together, and bomb ISIS into the middle of next week. They hold innocent people as hostages, because they know that "civilized" countries wouldn't dare to drop bombs on them. I say....BOMBS AWAY!!! We will be called "killers" either way, so let's do it and catch them with their pants(or robes) down. There's always going to be collateral damage anyway, so let's do the unexpected.
    02-10-2015 09:28 AM
  7. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    The U.A.E has joined the fight against ISIS. They are bombing their areas as of today. It's sad to say, but killing a Jordanian pilot in a gruesome way, is what it took to get a "good" Muslim country stirred up. Now, let all the countries get together, and bomb ISIS into the middle of next week. They hold innocent people as hostages, because they know that "civilized" countries wouldn't dare to drop bombs on them. I say....BOMBS AWAY!!! We will be called "killers" either way, so let's do it and catch them with their pants(or robes) down. There's always going to be collateral damage anyway, so let's do the unexpected.
    The problem with the "civilized" is the fact that they've forgotten that it took uncivilized actions for them to live in a civilized manner. Our enemies do not want to peacefully co-exist. They've made it crystal clear that they want us dead! Yet, time and time again, we question "why" various horrible acts occur at the hands of terrorists? We ask what have "we" done to cause them to do these things? We swear up and down that we had to have done something to them first for them to do these things. We do everything except see what is in plain view: Their own videotaped intentions, their religious book, and their growing atrocities. #smh
    grunt0300 likes this.
    02-10-2015 10:21 AM
  8. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    The problem with the "civilized" is the fact that they've forgotten that it took uncivilized actions for them to live in a civilized manner. Our enemies do not want to peacefully co-exist. They've made it crystal clear that they want us dead! Yet, time and time again, we question "why" various horrible acts occur at the hands of terrorists? We ask what have "we" done to cause them to do these things? We swear up and down that we had to have done something to them first for them to do these things. We do everything except see what is in plain view: Their own videotaped intentions, their religious book, and their growing atrocities. #smh
    Sorry, you keep bringing up this point but I don't see anyone here portraying terrorists as victims. With all due respect, that seems very hyperbolic. Nevertheless, no one here is arguing that "we" caused the terrorists' actions so your point seems to be a distraction at best.

    The efficacy of bombing is limited and you can't just bomb more indiscriminately without some indication that it will be successful. Kilofoxtrot has identified the reasons why it would not be successful, along with identifying the limits of another boots on the ground escalation. Have we such a short memory that we want to make the same mistakes we made only ten years ago? Rinse and repeat.

    If the uncivilized actions of the terrorists are to be used as some justification that we should also become more uncivilized, you aren't going to get much traction with that viewpoint. It goes against all the principles our country stands for. You can frame the issue as "the world is uglier than you think" until the cows come home, but I'll always stand with the majority of our citizens that would never support indiscriminate killing of women and children halfway across the world in the name of "protecting" our country.
    02-10-2015 12:04 PM
  9. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Sorry, you keep bringing up this point but I don't see anyone here portraying terrorists as victims. With all due respect, that seems very hyperbolic. Nevertheless, no one here is arguing that "we" caused the terrorists' actions so your point seems to be a distraction at best.

    The efficacy of bombing is limited and you can't just bomb more indiscriminately without some indication that it will be successful. Kilofoxtrot has identified the reasons why it would not be successful, along with identifying the limits of another boots on the ground escalation. Have we such a short memory that we want to make the same mistakes we made only ten years ago? Rinse and repeat.

    If the uncivilized actions of the terrorists are to be used as some justification that we should also become more uncivilized, you aren't going to get much traction with that viewpoint. It goes against all the principles our country stands for. You can frame the issue as "the world is uglier than you think" until the cows come home, but I'll always stand with the majority of our citizens that would never support indiscriminate killing of women and children halfway across the world in the name of "protecting" our country.
    Listen, I'm not a monster whose all for killing innocent people. I'm not a person to just go off to war for no reason. I am, however, a realist and I take seriously the threats of those who seek to destroy my fellow citizens and our way of life. Sitting on the sidelines weighing what's moral is not the same as it is in the trenches or face to face with a devoted enemy. A good deal of people don't have a problem saying , "I would do 'whatever it takes' to protect my family", while having a problem with people like me suggesting that our elected leaders and our military men and women do 'whatever it takes' to protect us all. Bullies prey on the weak, but respect those who stand up to them. Are we going to stand up and be respected or are we going to continue to be weak and watch the bullies continue to wreak havoc?
    grunt0300 likes this.
    02-10-2015 12:23 PM
  10. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    Listen, I'm not a monster whose all for killing innocent people. I'm not a person to just go off to war for no reason. I am, however, a realist and I take seriously the threats of those who seek to destroy my fellow citizens and our way of life. Sitting on the sidelines weighing what's moral is not the same as it is in the trenches or face to face with a devoted enemy. A good deal of people don't have a problem saying , "I would do 'whatever it takes' to protect my family", while having a problem with people like me suggesting that our elected leaders and our military men and women do 'whatever it takes' to protect us all. Bullies prey on the weak, but respect those who stand up to them. Are we going to stand up and be respected or are we going to continue to be weak and watch the bullies continue to wreak havoc?
    How on earth do you consider our military involvement in the middle east in the last twenty-five years to be weak?
    02-10-2015 12:33 PM
  11. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    How on earth do you consider our military involvement in the middle east in the last twenty-five years to be weak?
    Did you even read what I typed? Did you not understand the context in which I replied? Still, since you mentioned the last 25 years, did our involvement, as you've stated, prevent the attacks on the USS Cole? Did our involvement prevent the attacks that took place on 9/11/2001? Did our involvement prevent the Benghazi attacks? Is our involvement preventing ISIS from carrying out ruthless murders while videotaping them for the world to see?
    grunt0300 likes this.
    02-10-2015 12:43 PM
  12. grunt0300's Avatar
    How on earth do you consider our military involvement in the middle east in the last twenty-five years to be weak?

    For me, i'm only going back twenty-five months. We had ample opportunities to bomb ISIS when they were using the corridor between Iraq and Syria. Did we do it, no. Why? Because our President didn't want to offend his Muslim brothers. That's right, i said it. He calls the killing of those Jews in Paris, as some criminal activity at a Parisian Deli. He, and all his a**kissers will snub the Israeli head of state, but kiss up to every Arab head of state that comes his way. Does anyone get the picture here? Think people, think about how he was raised. He is just a "show" Christian. In his heart, HE IS A MUSLIM!!!
    Ledsteplin likes this.
    02-10-2015 12:48 PM
  13. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    Did you even read what I typed? Did you not understand the context in which I replied? Still, since you mentioned the last 25 years, did our involvement, as you've stated, prevent the attacks on the USS Cole? Did our involvement prevent the attacks that took place on 9/11/2001? Did our involvement prevent the Benghazi attacks? Is our involvement preventing ISIS from carrying out ruthless murders while videotaping them for the world to see?
    I read what you wrote very carefully. I would never consider terrorists to be bullies--they are cowards. I also would never consider the U.S. involvement in the middle east to be a demonstration of U.S weakess. The lack of efficacy of the U.S. military intervention in the area is well-documented, yet your solution is just to amp it up further? Well, good luck with that. You seem to be talking tough but I don't see any specific actions you are advocating. If you have any ideas I'm happy to listen but "do whatever it takes" is just a general notion that has no relevance here without specific actions.
    02-10-2015 01:02 PM
  14. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    I read what you wrote very carefully.
    Okay
    I would never consider terrorists to be bullies--they are cowards.
    We are in agreement.
    I also would never consider the U.S. involvement in the middle east to be a demonstration of U.S weakess.
    It was YOU who brought up our involvement over the last 25 years where as my earlier replies focused on what I see as a lack of commitment to take our enemies seriously. Having said that, when I was in Beirut as part of the Multinational peacekeeping force in almost all of 1983, I witnessed firsthand the threats and the follow-up acts to those threats. I was there when terrorist blew up the embassy - (I was not at the embassy, of course), and I was there before and after the bombing of the barracks I used to sleep in. They were serious then and are even more so now.
    The lack of efficacy of the U.S. military intervention in the area is well-documented, yet your solution is just to amp it up further?
    . I'll say this again. I want our elected leader to stop effin around and get serious about dealing with our enemies. In laymans term, do whatever it takes to crush those who are actively committed to destroying us and our way of life. Is that clear enough?
    Well, good luck with that.
    You seem to be talking tough but I don't see any specific actions you are advocating.
    Specific actions require specific enemy intel of which I do not possess. Do you?
    If you have any ideas I'm happy to listen but "do whatever it takes" is just a general notion that has no relevance here without specific actions.
    Bullcrap! did you use our military action over the past 25 years in general terms? Anyway, I've enjoyed reading your comment and I appreciate alternate viewpoints. Take care and have a great day.
    02-10-2015 01:28 PM
  15. BobLobIaw's Avatar
    I'll say this again. I want our elected leader to stop effin around and get serious about dealing with our enemies. In laymans term, do whatever it takes to crush those who are actively committed to destroying us and our way of life. Is that clear enough?
    I think this statement summarizes why we disagree. It's not just as simple as making a commitment to crush terrorists. The very real question is how to do it in the context of a very challenging geographic area of incubation. I appreciate your dedication to the cause, but I think the world has a long ways to go in developing effective counterterrorism measures in the middle east. Thanks for the discussion!
    02-10-2015 02:05 PM
  16. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    I think this statement summarizes why we disagree. It's not just as simple as making a commitment to crush terrorists. The very real question is how to do it in the context of a very challenging geographic area of incubation. I appreciate your dedication to the cause, but I think the world has a long ways to go in developing effective counterterrorism measures in the middle east. Thanks for the discussion!
    Don't get me wrong, Bob. I do understand that a good deal of planning, along with excellent intel is critical in going on the offensive against our enemies. Yet, it also takes a commitment to win, and that is where we fail. A good deal of people will always bring up the dangers of putting boots on the ground, and carry the notion that we can do everything that's necessary from the air, including drone strikes. If we were fighting on a battlefield against an enemy that is clearly defined and visible then I would agree, but that is not what we're up against. Too many people want to be in the position of authority, but when the time comes to make the toughest decisions (the ones that can cost lives), many of those people hide behind the facade of "further negotiations", "making sure we've exhausted all other means", and "we need to be sure we're doing the right thing". All are true, but I'm talking about when it's abundantly clear that we should act and we continue to use the aforementioned quoted responses as a means to keep from making the decision to act. As for effective counterterrorism measures, they exist now, but today's generation don't have the stomach for it.
    02-10-2015 02:38 PM
  17. palandri's Avatar
    To be honest, I am sick and tired of the whole middle east, including the countries that we consider allies. I don't like what Israel or Saudi Arabia do, plus all of this turmoil is based on religion which really makes it stupid.

    What are our vital interest in the middles east? Its not oil anymore. Is it pistachios? Figs? I just don't see any vital interest in the middle east. I think we should just abandon the whole middle east until they advanced into the 21st century. No more Kings, canings, whippings, chopping off hands and heads, stoning...etc...
    Les74 likes this.
    02-10-2015 05:26 PM
  18. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    I am all for the fight as long it is, of course, successful along with an exit strategy that gets our men and women home for good. Our all volunteer military is not built for a protracted war which is what this middle east conflict is... the longest in our nation's history.

    The problem with the "wipe'm all out" strategy without "the locals" doing most of the heavy lifting, is that creates a void, that some terrorist organization is more than willing to fill as soon as we, the ones doing the heavy lifting, leave. Then its back to square one again. The rise of ISIS is proof of that.

    It is a very complex problem for any president to handle. Republican or Democrat.
    Just_Me_D likes this.
    02-10-2015 05:45 PM
  19. palandri's Avatar
    I am all for the fight as long it is, of course, successful along with an exit strategy that gets our men and women home for good. Our all volunteer military is not built for a protracted war which is what this middle east conflict is... the longest in our nation's history.....
    It's real easy to say, "I am all for the fight", until you tour the Veterans Hospital in your area. I had work last year at the Veterans Hospital in Chicago and it made me sick to see every single building jammed with disabled veterans, some were so young it was sickening. Missing arms, legs, disfigured bodies.
    02-10-2015 06:01 PM
  20. grunt0300's Avatar
    It's real easy to say, "I am all for the fight", until you tour the Veterans Hospital in your area. I had work last year at the Veterans Hospital in Chicago and it made me sick to see every single building jammed with disabled veterans, some were so young it was sickening. Missing arms, legs, disfigured bodies.

    The price of freedom is not free. You should see what war looks like, while it's happening. For every young man disfigured by these Islamist terrorists, one hundred of theirs should end up the same way.
    Just_Me_D likes this.
    02-10-2015 06:27 PM
  21. Les74's Avatar
    To be honest, I am sick and tired of the whole middle east, including the countries that we consider allies. I don't like what Israel or Saudi Arabia do, plus all of this turmoil is based on religion which really makes it stupid.

    What are our vital interest in the middles east? Its not oil anymore. Is it pistachios? Figs? I just don't see any vital interest in the middle east. I think we should just abandon the whole middle east until they advanced into the 21st century. No more Kings, canings, whippings, chopping off hands and heads, stoning...etc...
    You have a better chance of seeing God before any of that happens.



    See what I did there?
    palandri likes this.
    02-10-2015 08:16 PM
  22. palandri's Avatar
    You have a better chance of seeing God before any of that happens.



    See what I did there?
    I hear ya.

    It's such a mess in the middle east and it's all about religion. I was wondering why they burnt the pilot to death, it just seemed so insane, then I read an article that said we're using hellfire missiles over there which are designed to incinerate people to death. I don't know if that's true, but it seems to make sense now. That's why I think total abandonment is the only logical action.
    02-10-2015 08:33 PM
  23. grunt0300's Avatar
    I hear ya.

    It's such a mess in the middle east and it's all about religion. I was wondering why they burnt the pilot to death, it just seemed so insane, then I read an article that said we're using hellfire missiles over there which are designed to incinerate people to death. I don't know if that's true, but it seems to make sense now. That's why I think total abandonment is the only logical action.

    What about nukes?
    02-10-2015 08:42 PM
  24. pappy53's Avatar
    It's real easy to say, "I am all for the fight", until you tour the Veterans Hospital in your area. I had work last year at the Veterans Hospital in Chicago and it made me sick to see every single building jammed with disabled veterans, some were so young it was sickening. Missing arms, legs, disfigured bodies.
    Whatcha gonna do when you see the hospitals in the U.S. filling up with badly injured men, women, and children, all because we didn't wipe the planet of those animals when we had the chance? They will come here, count on it. Rather have boots on the ground here or there? We need to cut off the head of the fish now.
    02-10-2015 09:49 PM
  25. palandri's Avatar
    Whatcha gonna do when you see the hospitals in the U.S. filling up with badly injured men, women, and children, all because we didn't wipe the planet of those animals when we had the chance? They will come here, count on it. Rather have boots on the ground here or there? We need to cut off the head of the fish now.
    If you think those nuts are going to cross the ocean and attempt to takeover U.S. territory and try to force their religion down out throats, you are just as delusional as they are.

    Have you seen their military training? They learn tumbling and then they punch each other to toughen themselves. Are you impressed? If they ever run into a diversion and a double flank, they're all gone.
    Les74 likes this.
    02-10-2015 10:28 PM
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