Thoughts on Senate CIA report

[A895]

I simply stated the reasoning...I never qualified one being more important than the other. What I DID qualify was the recipients of the torture...and how it better serves the party doing the torturing. The US tortures a captured "solider" from a terrorist group to get answers...a terrorist group basically grabs whoever will give them the most exposure, including innocent people, some who have probably HELPED the members of their terrorists groups or their families (IE: Aid Workers).

There is absolutely and unquestionably a difference. The US does not abduct innocent aid workers, journalists and civilians...hold them captive and then execute them on live TV. Regardless of what the reasoning for this is, it very clearly distinguishes the two from each other.

You make a fair point.

 

[A895]

It's been shown torture is not an effective means of gathering intelligence.

It might but when under duress and under high physical trauma like these people were and the fact one of them actually died, whatever they do say is questionable because they can practically say whatever they want to make it stop. I wish we can get something more reliable as a way of getting intel from an unwilling party.

 

[acadia11]

You make a fair point.

Of course US has abducted innocent people. I'm shocked that people think in war you can or will keep your hands clean. Of course, we have a do abduct people that are innocent. We just do it quietly because we don't need to use it as a means to project power, we have the most advanced military in the world for that.

These guys not having the military means use public abduction and show to say we can project out power anywhere and anytime.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_(torture_victim)

 

[acadia11]

I've always maintained that I want to be shown when the US captured an aid worker or journalist from a country where the terrorist groups originate, then tortured them to get information. The US has done some pretty gnarly things to captured terrorists, but when have they EVER tortured someone on the level of the people who groups like ISIS have been beheading?

These terrorist groups don't care who they kill because they are not doing it out of revenge...they are doing it to garner attention, and killing a solider, unfortunately, doesn't carry with it the same kind of attention that beheading an aid worker, or a journalist or an innocent bystander in a building with a plane.

We torture terrorists for answers...they behead innocent people for attention. In the end, there is no winning this "war" on terrorism because they simply exist...they aren't an entity we can go fight and beat and then call it a "win", they are ideas, histories and religious commands that will always be followed.

On the day of his death, Dilawar had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days. A guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling. "Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying. Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned that most of the interrogators had in fact believed Mr. Dilawar to be an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.[2]

 

[A895]

Of course US has abducted innocent people. I'm shocked that people think in war you can or will keep your hands clean. Of course, we have a do abduct people that are innocent. We just do it quietly because we don't need to use it as a means to project power, we have the most advanced military in the world for that.

These guys not having the military means use public abduction and show to say we can project out power anywhere and anytime.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_(torture_victim)

The big difference is that ISIS has gone out of their way to hurt civilians and famously behead them. We have been extreme but we aren't lopping heads off.
I don't condone what we did either way, as we didn't get jack **** out of it. So I am glad the program is done for.

 

[pappy53]

The big difference is that ISIS has gone out of their way to hurt civilians and famously behead them. We have been extreme but we aren't lopping heads off.
I don't condone what we did either way, as we didn't get jack **** out of it. So I am glad the program is done for.

Yeah, we got Intel from it.


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[A895]

Yeah, we got Intel from it.


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Nothing that can be considered big or was really worth doing all this insane torture to people.

 

[pappy53]

Nothing that can be considered big or was really worth doing all this insane torture to people.

How can you say that when CIA officials said that they got good intel from it and is still using that intel to this day?
I believe that killing 3,000 citizens in a burning World Trade Center is insane torture.


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[A895]

How can you say that when CIA officials said that they got good intel from it and is still using that intel to this day?
I believe that killing 3,000 citizens in a burning World Trade Center is insane torture.


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Lol, just lol. The report specifically says the CIA LIED about the Intel they got. This whole thread is based on that report that specifically says they did not receive any significant intel, they lied on previous reports and they lied what they were doing.

How much longer are we going to keep falling back to 9/11 in defence of doing crazy actions?

 

[pappy53]

Lol, just lol. The report specifically says the CIA LIED about the Intel they got. This whole thread is based on that report that specifically says they did not receive any significant intel, they lied on previous reports and they lied what they were doing.

How much longer are we going to keep falling back to 9/11 in defence of doing crazy actions?

Basically every CIA official and the current director are saying that good intel was obtained. Not one of them was interviewed in the making of this report.
As far as 9/11, it is where most of the enhanced interrogations started. So, I guess that it is as pertinent as the slavery that you bring up in a lot of your posts.


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[HankAZ]

Nothing that can be considered big or was really worth doing all this insane torture to people.

Of course your security clearance has made you privy to this information? And likewise, our lack of security clearance prevents you from sharing what you know.

Or you’re just spewing for the sake of continuing a lost argument.

 

[the_tech_eater]

Found this little nugget on Wikipedia about Nancy Pelosi:

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[HankAZ]

Lol, just lol. The report specifically says the CIA LIED about the Intel they got. This whole thread is based on that report that specifically says they did not receive any significant intel, they lied on previous reports and they lied what they were doing.

How much longer are we going to keep falling back to 9/11 in defence of doing crazy actions?

So a report created by a democratic senate says the CIA lied. But there was no actual interviews of the CIA leadership in the report. And the report was released to try to undermine the incoming senate, led by the dems' opposing party. Sounds insanely predictable and biased.

How soon should we forget what happened on 9/11? It didn’t take a year for the liberal media to stop showing photos or videos of the attacks from 9/11 because they were offensive to the muslims. Now you don’t even want to remember what happened then? Stick your head back in the sand. We’ll let you know when the work is done and it’s safe for you to come out and play.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~George Santayana

 

[A895]

Basically every CIA official and the current director are saying that good intel was obtained. Not one of them was interviewed in the making of this report.
As far as 9/11, it is where most of the enhanced interrogations started. So, I guess that it is as pertinent as the slavery that you bring up in a lot of your posts.


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The report, the actual report is saying they lied about that stuff. What difference would it make if they are already guilty of lying?

 

[A895]

Of course your security clearance has made you privy to this information? And likewise, our lack of security clearance prevents you from sharing what you know.

Or you?re just spewing for the sake of continuing a lost argument.

I am getting this from the report itself. This entire premise of.this thread is the report. It is like people are actually ignoring the report.

 

[A895]

Found this little nugget on Wikipedia about Nancy Pelosi: http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/12/69326733ba155039eef48a29ec6adbcc.jpg


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What about her? Bush said he didn't want to be informed of what was going on.

 

[A895]

So a report created by a democratic senate says the CIA lied. But there was no actual interviews of the CIA leadership in the report. And the report was released to try to undermine the incoming senate, led by the dems' opposing party. Sounds insanely predictable and biased.

How soon should we forget what happened on 9/11? It didn?t take a year for the liberal media to stop showing photos or videos of the attacks from 9/11 because they were offensive to the muslims. Now you don?t even want to remember what happened then? Stick your head back in the sand. We?ll let you know when the work is done and it?s safe for you to come out and play.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~George Santayana

What? Everyone is assuming this is some move. It may be, but when is a right time to release a torture report?

I know what happened during 9/11 but how long are we continue to fall.back to that to justify heinous acts? To stop evil we can't do the same thing they are doing, that makes us no better than them.

 

[acadia11]

So a report created by a democratic senate says the CIA lied. But there was no actual interviews of the CIA leadership in the report. And the report was released to try to undermine the incoming senate, led by the dems' opposing party. Sounds insanely predictable and biased.

How soon should we forget what happened on 9/11? It didn?t take a year for the liberal media to stop showing photos or videos of the attacks from 9/11 because they were offensive to the muslims. Now you don?t even want to remember what happened then? Stick your head back in the sand. We?ll let you know when the work is done and it?s safe for you to come out and play.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~George Santayana

Lol, anyone who uses "the liberal media" in a sentence can't be taken seriously

 

[anon(4698833)]

On the day of his death, Dilawar had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days. A guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling. "Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying. Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned that most of the interrogators had in fact believed Mr. Dilawar to be an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.[2]

Completely irrelevant and tragic story. Mr Dilawar and the occupants of his car were NOT taken by US soldiers, they were handed over to the soldiers by an Afghan guerrilla commander under the guise that they were involved in the missile attack on the US base that morning. Mr Dilawar had a few things going against him that day...several things found in the car that the family claimed were not theirs (possible since he just bought the car), proximity of the attack combined with the information (regardless of truth) provided to the interrogators from the commander who handed them over.

My statement still stands...your example was not relevant. And to top it off, his death was declared a homicide and the soldiers were charged... Bagram torture and prisoner abuse

 

[anon(4698833)]

Nothing that can be considered big or was really worth doing all this insane torture to people.

Again, this is NOT what the report said. The report specified that the torturing of prisoners did not yield legitimate amounts of information on IMMINENT threats to the homeland or US interests. At no time does it say that nothing was obtained, or a gauge on the value of the content that was obtained.

And then again, like any logical person who understands how our government works would know...the information provided in this report is the tip of the iceberg. Basically, we still know almost NOTHING about what really happens, and what really is obtained/not obtained from these methods of interrogation.