1. A895's Avatar
    I simply stated the reasoning...I never qualified one being more important than the other. What I DID qualify was the recipients of the torture...and how it better serves the party doing the torturing. The US tortures a captured "solider" from a terrorist group to get answers...a terrorist group basically grabs whoever will give them the most exposure, including innocent people, some who have probably HELPED the members of their terrorists groups or their families (IE: Aid Workers).

    There is absolutely and unquestionably a difference. The US does not abduct innocent aid workers, journalists and civilians...hold them captive and then execute them on live TV. Regardless of what the reasoning for this is, it very clearly distinguishes the two from each other.
    You make a fair point.
    12-11-2014 10:50 PM
  2. A895's Avatar
    It's been shown torture is not an effective means of gathering intelligence.
    It might but when under duress and under high physical trauma like these people were and the fact one of them actually died, whatever they do say is questionable because they can practically say whatever they want to make it stop. I wish we can get something more reliable as a way of getting intel from an unwilling party.
    12-11-2014 10:52 PM
  3. acadia11's Avatar
    You make a fair point.
    Of course US has abducted innocent people. I'm shocked that people think in war you can or will keep your hands clean. Of course, we have a do abduct people that are innocent. We just do it quietly because we don't need to use it as a means to project power, we have the most advanced military in the world for that.

    These guys not having the military means use public abduction and show to say we can project out power anywhere and anytime.


    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilaw...ture_victim%29
    12-12-2014 11:27 AM
  4. acadia11's Avatar
    I've always maintained that I want to be shown when the US captured an aid worker or journalist from a country where the terrorist groups originate, then tortured them to get information. The US has done some pretty gnarly things to captured terrorists, but when have they EVER tortured someone on the level of the people who groups like ISIS have been beheading?

    These terrorist groups don't care who they kill because they are not doing it out of revenge...they are doing it to garner attention, and killing a solider, unfortunately, doesn't carry with it the same kind of attention that beheading an aid worker, or a journalist or an innocent bystander in a building with a plane.

    We torture terrorists for answers...they behead innocent people for attention. In the end, there is no winning this "war" on terrorism because they simply exist...they aren't an entity we can go fight and beat and then call it a "win", they are ideas, histories and religious commands that will always be followed.
    On the day of his death, Dilawar had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days. A guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling. "Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying. Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned that most of the interrogators had in fact believed Mr. Dilawar to be an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.[2]
    12-12-2014 11:33 AM
  5. A895's Avatar
    Of course US has abducted innocent people. I'm shocked that people think in war you can or will keep your hands clean. Of course, we have a do abduct people that are innocent. We just do it quietly because we don't need to use it as a means to project power, we have the most advanced military in the world for that.

    These guys not having the military means use public abduction and show to say we can project out power anywhere and anytime.


    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilaw...ture_victim%29
    The big difference is that ISIS has gone out of their way to hurt civilians and famously behead them. We have been extreme but we aren't lopping heads off.
    I don't condone what we did either way, as we didn't get jack **** out of it. So I am glad the program is done for.
    12-12-2014 11:42 AM
  6. pappy53's Avatar
    The big difference is that ISIS has gone out of their way to hurt civilians and famously behead them. We have been extreme but we aren't lopping heads off.
    I don't condone what we did either way, as we didn't get jack **** out of it. So I am glad the program is done for.
    Yeah, we got Intel from it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    12-12-2014 11:46 AM
  7. A895's Avatar
    Yeah, we got Intel from it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Nothing that can be considered big or was really worth doing all this insane torture to people.
    12-12-2014 11:47 AM
  8. pappy53's Avatar
    Nothing that can be considered big or was really worth doing all this insane torture to people.
    How can you say that when CIA officials said that they got good intel from it and is still using that intel to this day?
    I believe that killing 3,000 citizens in a burning World Trade Center is insane torture.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    12-12-2014 11:56 AM
  9. A895's Avatar
    How can you say that when CIA officials said that they got good intel from it and is still using that intel to this day?
    I believe that killing 3,000 citizens in a burning World Trade Center is insane torture.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Lol, just lol. The report specifically says the CIA LIED about the Intel they got. This whole thread is based on that report that specifically says they did not receive any significant intel, they lied on previous reports and they lied what they were doing.

    How much longer are we going to keep falling back to 9/11 in defence of doing crazy actions?
    12-12-2014 12:00 PM
  10. pappy53's Avatar
    Lol, just lol. The report specifically says the CIA LIED about the Intel they got. This whole thread is based on that report that specifically says they did not receive any significant intel, they lied on previous reports and they lied what they were doing.

    How much longer are we going to keep falling back to 9/11 in defence of doing crazy actions?
    Basically every CIA official and the current director are saying that good intel was obtained. Not one of them was interviewed in the making of this report.
    As far as 9/11, it is where most of the enhanced interrogations started. So, I guess that it is as pertinent as the slavery that you bring up in a lot of your posts.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    12-12-2014 12:23 PM
  11. HankAZ's Avatar
    Nothing that can be considered big or was really worth doing all this insane torture to people.
    Of course your security clearance has made you privy to this information? And likewise, our lack of security clearance prevents you from sharing what you know.

    Or you’re just spewing for the sake of continuing a lost argument.
    12-12-2014 12:30 PM
  12. the_tech_eater's Avatar
    Found this little nugget on Wikipedia about Nancy Pelosi:


    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    hydrogen3 and Ledsteplin like this.
    12-12-2014 12:31 PM
  13. HankAZ's Avatar
    Lol, just lol. The report specifically says the CIA LIED about the Intel they got. This whole thread is based on that report that specifically says they did not receive any significant intel, they lied on previous reports and they lied what they were doing.

    How much longer are we going to keep falling back to 9/11 in defence of doing crazy actions?
    So a report created by a democratic senate says the CIA lied. But there was no actual interviews of the CIA leadership in the report. And the report was released to try to undermine the incoming senate, led by the dems' opposing party. Sounds insanely predictable and biased.

    How soon should we forget what happened on 9/11? It didn’t take a year for the liberal media to stop showing photos or videos of the attacks from 9/11 because they were offensive to the muslims. Now you don’t even want to remember what happened then? Stick your head back in the sand. We’ll let you know when the work is done and it’s safe for you to come out and play.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~George Santayana
    12-12-2014 12:39 PM
  14. A895's Avatar
    Basically every CIA official and the current director are saying that good intel was obtained. Not one of them was interviewed in the making of this report.
    As far as 9/11, it is where most of the enhanced interrogations started. So, I guess that it is as pertinent as the slavery that you bring up in a lot of your posts.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The report, the actual report is saying they lied about that stuff. What difference would it make if they are already guilty of lying?
    12-12-2014 12:42 PM
  15. A895's Avatar
    Of course your security clearance has made you privy to this information? And likewise, our lack of security clearance prevents you from sharing what you know.

    Or youre just spewing for the sake of continuing a lost argument.
    I am getting this from the report itself. This entire premise of.this thread is the report. It is like people are actually ignoring the report.
    12-12-2014 12:44 PM
  16. A895's Avatar
    Found this little nugget on Wikipedia about Nancy Pelosi: http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...29ec6adbcc.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    What about her? Bush said he didn't want to be informed of what was going on.
    12-12-2014 12:47 PM
  17. A895's Avatar
    So a report created by a democratic senate says the CIA lied. But there was no actual interviews of the CIA leadership in the report. And the report was released to try to undermine the incoming senate, led by the dems' opposing party. Sounds insanely predictable and biased.

    How soon should we forget what happened on 9/11? It didnt take a year for the liberal media to stop showing photos or videos of the attacks from 9/11 because they were offensive to the muslims. Now you dont even want to remember what happened then? Stick your head back in the sand. Well let you know when the work is done and its safe for you to come out and play.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~George Santayana
    What? Everyone is assuming this is some move. It may be, but when is a right time to release a torture report?

    I know what happened during 9/11 but how long are we continue to fall.back to that to justify heinous acts? To stop evil we can't do the same thing they are doing, that makes us no better than them.
    12-12-2014 12:49 PM
  18. acadia11's Avatar
    So a report created by a democratic senate says the CIA lied. But there was no actual interviews of the CIA leadership in the report. And the report was released to try to undermine the incoming senate, led by the dems' opposing party. Sounds insanely predictable and biased.

    How soon should we forget what happened on 9/11? It didnt take a year for the liberal media to stop showing photos or videos of the attacks from 9/11 because they were offensive to the muslims. Now you dont even want to remember what happened then? Stick your head back in the sand. Well let you know when the work is done and its safe for you to come out and play.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~George Santayana
    Lol, anyone who uses "the liberal media" in a sentence can't be taken seriously
    12-12-2014 01:15 PM
  19. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    On the day of his death, Dilawar had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days. A guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling. "Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying. Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned that most of the interrogators had in fact believed Mr. Dilawar to be an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.[2]
    Completely irrelevant and tragic story. Mr Dilawar and the occupants of his car were NOT taken by US soldiers, they were handed over to the soldiers by an Afghan guerrilla commander under the guise that they were involved in the missile attack on the US base that morning. Mr Dilawar had a few things going against him that day...several things found in the car that the family claimed were not theirs (possible since he just bought the car), proximity of the attack combined with the information (regardless of truth) provided to the interrogators from the commander who handed them over.

    My statement still stands...your example was not relevant. And to top it off, his death was declared a homicide and the soldiers were charged... Bagram torture and prisoner abuse
    12-12-2014 01:59 PM
  20. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Nothing that can be considered big or was really worth doing all this insane torture to people.
    Again, this is NOT what the report said. The report specified that the torturing of prisoners did not yield legitimate amounts of information on IMMINENT threats to the homeland or US interests. At no time does it say that nothing was obtained, or a gauge on the value of the content that was obtained.

    And then again, like any logical person who understands how our government works would know...the information provided in this report is the tip of the iceberg. Basically, we still know almost NOTHING about what really happens, and what really is obtained/not obtained from these methods of interrogation.
    12-12-2014 02:03 PM
  21. A895's Avatar
    Again, this is NOT what the report said. The report specified that the torturing of prisoners did not yield legitimate amounts of IMMINENT threats. At no time does it say that nothing was obtained, or a gauge on the value of the content that was obtained.

    And then again, like any logical person who understands how our government works would know...the information provided in this report is the tip of the iceberg. Basically, we still know almost NOTHING about what really happens, and what really is obtained/not obtained from these methods of interrogation.
    Of course we don't know everything. But we know for a fact they have lied in the past. We don't need an agency who lies to the people about what they do and what they have learned.

    If anything the two doctors who ran this program should be reprimanded for this nonsense. They recieved 81 million dollars for this. In the report itself, it talks about how even people of the CIA were uncomfortable with what they were doing. That is telling in itself.
    12-12-2014 02:07 PM
  22. HankAZ's Avatar
    Lol, anyone who uses "the liberal media" in a sentence can't be taken seriously
    So you think the major networks (ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC and NBC, plus the majority of the newspapers in America) are NOT liberal? Note that I left FoxNews out of that because I know how much you hate them.

    Sorry if you cannot handle the truth of the situation.
    12-12-2014 02:14 PM
  23. BreakingKayfabe's Avatar
    I know what happened during 9/11 but how long are we continue to fall.back to that to justify heinous acts?
    As long as we should. You make 9/11 sound like Pearl Harbor or the Lincoln assassination. It was only 13 years ago.
    12-12-2014 02:16 PM
  24. acadia11's Avatar
    So you think the major networks (ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC and NBC, plus the majority of the newspapers in America) are NOT liberal? Note that I left FoxNews out of that because I know how much you hate them.

    Sorry if you cannot handle the truth of the situation.
    No I think it's simply a joke of a statement, the liberal media.... The fact that you complained 1 year later they weren't running endless reruns of the towers collapsing was even funnier.
    12-12-2014 02:17 PM
  25. A895's Avatar
    As long as we should. You make 9/11 sound like Pearl Harbor or the Lincoln assassination. It was only 13 years ago.
    Did you forget everything we have done too? The Drone bombings, the decade long war, the torture, it just goes on and on. Killings thousands to avenge thousands makes zero sense.
    12-12-2014 02:20 PM
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