1. calebt's Avatar
    This thread has covered the following:
    - having ideals - for me Ben Franklin quote says it all
    - a moral argument against torture - enough has been said I think.
    - by those that know torture - I'm with John McCain on this one. It is ineffective and wrong.
    - a world view that if we misbehave it give the future radicals fuel to recruit. This is the most debatable but the least important IMO.

    How about a legal argument - this is just a part of it but let's start with this:
    6th amendment:
    Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    8th amendment:
    Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Who is going to dare come back with the retort: This is interrogation not punishment. In advance I say, give me a break. When the government comes for you or your family in the future using this same justification what will you think then? The cliche 'The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions' is appropriate.
    Your reasoning baffles me, all this would only work in a perfect world.


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    12-14-2014 02:22 PM
  2. Scatabrain's Avatar
    I guess I have faith that we can do it right. If we want to.


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    12-14-2014 02:26 PM
  3. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    I guess I have faith that we can do it right. If we want to.


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    Explain what is "right"? What is a more ethical option specifically?
    12-14-2014 02:33 PM
  4. Scatabrain's Avatar
    McCain says it best:

    http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/...1-a58f984db996



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    12-14-2014 02:39 PM
  5. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Except it still didn't answer my question at all...
    12-14-2014 02:49 PM
  6. Scatabrain's Avatar
    Except it still didn't answer my question at all...
    Oh well.


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    12-14-2014 02:50 PM
  7. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Oh well.


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    I mean if you're going to recommend that there are better ways, why not offer examples?
    12-14-2014 02:52 PM
  8. Scatabrain's Avatar
    I mean if you're going to recommend that there are better ways, why not offer examples?
    I am against torture. I believe in our due process. I believe in having allies. I believe in The Geneva Conventions. I believe we can be better then our enemies. Your challenge that torture is the only way is false. I don't need to rise to it.


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    12-14-2014 03:00 PM
  9. calebt's Avatar
    McCain says it best:

    http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/...1-a58f984db996



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    John McCain come on, they probably beat the **** out of him just to shut him up. He should not even be a state Senator and to run for president, what a waste of an election year. His judgement is clouded by what he went through in Vietnam.


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    12-14-2014 03:01 PM
  10. Scatabrain's Avatar
    John McCain come on, they probably beat the **** out of him just to shut him up. He should not even be a state Senator and to run for president, what a waste of an election year. His judgement is clouded by what he went through in Vietnam.


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    You're repulsive.


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    A895 likes this.
    12-14-2014 03:03 PM
  11. hydrogen3's Avatar
    John McCain come on, they probably beat the **** out of him just to shut him up. He should not even be a state Senator and to run for president, what a waste of an election year. His judgement is clouded by what he went through in Vietnam.


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    McCain is a war hero. If anyone knows the definition of torture, he does.


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    A895 likes this.
    12-14-2014 03:06 PM
  12. calebt's Avatar
    McCain is a war hero. If anyone knows the definition of torture, he does.


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    And that is the way he should have stayed remembered, not a bleeding heart liberal. I do respect him for his service in the military didn't mean to be so harsh.


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    12-14-2014 03:17 PM
  13. Scatabrain's Avatar
    And that is the way he should have stayed remembered, not a bleeding heart liberal. I do respect him for his service in the military didn't mean to be so harsh.


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    A liberal? Because of one thing you disagree on you cast him aside?


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    A895 and hydrogen3 like this.
    12-14-2014 03:23 PM
  14. calebt's Avatar
    A liberal? Because of one thing you disagree on you cast him aside?


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    John McCain is a Politician and that leaves him open for bashing good or bad, I never agreed with his politics in the past.

    I just don't feel a man who went through what he did can make the right judgment in these matters; there is a conflict of interest. When he was nominated the republican candidate I cringed at the thought of him being President.
    12-14-2014 04:40 PM
  15. Scatabrain's Avatar
    John McCain is a Politician and that leaves him open for bashing good or bad, I never agreed with his politics in the past.

    I just don't feel a man who went through what he did can make the right judgment in these matters; there is a conflict of interest. When he was nominated the republican candidate I cringed at the thought of him being President.
    That's consistent with me being okay if he had won.


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    12-14-2014 04:46 PM
  16. calebt's Avatar
    That's consistent with me being okay if he had won.


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    Okay, I also cringed when the other guy won, but I do give him credit for trying to take on health care, I wish the republicans had put as much effort into fixing health care as they did trying to keep Obama out of office.
    12-14-2014 04:51 PM
  17. hydrogen3's Avatar
    Off with their heads. Do on to others as they do on to you


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    12-14-2014 05:12 PM
  18. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    I am against torture. I believe in our due process. I believe in having allies. I believe in The Geneva Conventions. I believe we can be better then our enemies. Your challenge that torture is the only way is false. I don't need to rise to it.


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    Except I never said that, you put those words into my mouth because you have no legitimate answer to my question...it's ok to say "I don't know."
    hydrogen3 likes this.
    12-14-2014 05:15 PM
  19. sanibel's Avatar
    John McCain come on, they probably beat the **** out of him just to shut him up. He should not even be a state Senator and to run for president, what a waste of an election year. His judgement is clouded by what he went through in Vietnam.
    I voted for Obama yet I think your statement is unfair towards Sen. McCain, especially on matters of torture. Furthermore, he was elected to be a senator via a democratic process.
    hydrogen3 and A895 like this.
    12-14-2014 05:51 PM
  20. hydrogen3's Avatar
    Okay, I also cringed when the other guy won, but I do give him credit for trying to take on health care, I wish the republicans had put as much effort into fixing health care as they did trying to keep Obama out of office.
    The only problem.. We didn't succeed. Praise the lord the country is being torn apart

    As I said before the Democrats want to destroy this country

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    12-14-2014 06:00 PM
  21. calebt's Avatar
    I voted for Obama yet I think your statement is unfair towards Sen. McCain, especially on matters of torture. Furthermore, he was elected to be a senator via a democratic process.

    Maybe unfair and a little harsh, but I felt the same way when Ross Perot had Admiral Stockdale as a running mate. I felt bad for the man he had no business being there; I feel the same about John McCain.

    I just feel that when a man goes through what they did there competence in decisions as these are in question. You may think I’m wrong, but that’s how I feel.

    Believe me I’m not for torturing people, but I am for stopping all threats against my Country.
    12-14-2014 06:16 PM
  22. sanibel's Avatar
    I just feel that when a man goes through what they did there competence in decisions as these are in question. You may think I’m wrong, but that’s how I feel.

    Believe me I’m not for torturing people, but I am for stopping all threats against my Country.
    That's fine, you're entitled to express your opinions. I simply disagree with you on Sen. McCain: His opinion on torture seems very coherent and competent.
    A895 likes this.
    12-14-2014 06:25 PM
  23. calebt's Avatar
    That's fine, you're entitled to express your opinions. I simply disagree with you on Sen. McCain: His opinion on torture seems very coherent and competent.
    We are at war with a serious group of people that want to kill you just for having the freedom of our opinions and way of life. All the reasoning and talking is not going to change the way they think. The people like John McCain, Dianne Feinstein are not wartime senators we don’t need our dirty laundry air to our enemy’s. Neither do we have a wartime President.
    12-14-2014 06:41 PM
  24. sanibel's Avatar
    We are at war with a serious group of people that want to kill you just for having the freedom of our opinions and way of life. All the reasoning and talking is not going to change the way they think. The people like John McCain, Dianne Feinstein are not wartime senators we don’t need our dirty laundry air to our enemy’s.
    And because you disagree with McCain he's not worthy of being a senator? He'd done plenty for his constituents and his country. Again, my dispute with you is not about torture per se but about a senator who has expressed his feelings (and opinions) publicly. More power to him.
    Besides, we cannot elect senators in peacetime and then unseat them in wartime. They've been elected via democratic process and if you believe in democracy than that's the way it works.
    A895 likes this.
    12-14-2014 06:49 PM
  25. calebt's Avatar
    And because you disagree with McCain he's not worthy of being a senator? He'd done plenty for his constituents and his country. Again, my dispute with you is not about torture per se but about a senator who has expressed his feelings (and opinions) publicly. More power to him.
    Besides, we cannot elect senators in peacetime and then unseat them in wartime. They've been elected via democratic process and if you believe in democracy than that's the way it works.
    "McCain he's not worthy of being a senator?" No.

    I just answered why I think he is not worthy of being a senator.
    12-14-2014 06:58 PM
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