Obama will go down as an exceptional president

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acadia11

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Just because I can't provide you with specific numbers doesn't mean that it isn't happening...it's not a real important piece of my life to invest that much research into it, but I am aware it is happening (and is not just some over blown issue that is misrepresented...it called for an internal criminal investigation for god's sake).

As far as efficiency, that's an word you used, not me. I said mismanaged.

this is like science rule number 1, feelings are irrelevant. Again, your argument is based on your presumption that it's an issue, this doesn't mean it actually is, just like I the foods tamp fraud argument, when they actually studied it , they found that there was little fraud and the biggest perpetrators were college students. In fact, the study cost more than the actual fraud they found. So, the issue is whether it's significant enough that it's a problem.

Again not whether you can find a few cases or not.
 
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anon(4698833)

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No...your hang up with it is whether it's significant enough. Has no bearing on whether it's a significant problem because that has already been established...and it is a significant problem, so much so that in 2012, they had to change the entire set of regulation and rules surrounding the system of getting an ITIN to try and curb one PIECE of the fraud issue. Not the whole fraud issue, just one piece of it.

And again, that's just one piece of the list of things I put up top that are clear mismanagement issues, and what I put is just a handful that I could think of off the top of my head.

Here's another link giving some numbers for you to munch on since that seems to be your most pressing demand to this discussion...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/itin.asp
 

acadia11

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No...your hang up with it is whether it's significant enough. Has no bearing on whether it's a significant problem because that has already been established...and it is a significant problem, so much so that in 2012, they had to change the entire set of regulation and rules surrounding the system of getting an ITIN to try and curb one PIECE of the fraud issue. Not the whole fraud issue, just one piece of it.

And again, that's just one piece of the list of things I put up top that are clear mismanagement issues, and what I put is just a handful that I could think of off the top of my head.

Here's another link giving some numbers for you to munch on since that seems to be your most pressing demand to this discussion...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/itin.asp

A political problem is not a significant problem. Again, imho the problem is the tax code in the U.S., not the IRS, it's complex and unruly making oversight difficult, expensive, and compounds the issue of managing fraud, imho.

The greatest fraud I've heard is from crime syndicates , who essentially file tax returns unbeknownst to people as part of the greater issue of identity theft. While I agree their is mismanagement to an effect in the IRS , I would argue the biggest concern is political , people don't like paying taxes, people are fearful of immigrants, so we scape goat this as a general IRS issue and immigration issue and this I think is simply politics at play.

You cited one story of 1000s of fraudulent tax returns linked to itin , for $50 million. Which sounds like a large number until you compare it to the overal fraud and overall nber of returns processed.

It's like NASA $15 billion budget sounds like a lot until you realize our annual budget is $3 trillion dollars and NASAs budget is half a percent,
.5% of the annual budget, it's pennies literally in comparison to what we spend overall in the budget.
 

acadia11

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No...your hang up with it is whether it's significant enough. Has no bearing on whether it's a significant problem because that has already been established...and it is a significant problem, so much so that in 2012, they had to change the entire set of regulation and rules surrounding the system of getting an ITIN to try and curb one PIECE of the fraud issue. Not the whole fraud issue, just one piece of it.

And again, that's just one piece of the list of things I put up top that are clear mismanagement issues, and what I put is just a handful that I could think of off the top of my head.

Here's another link giving some numbers for you to munch on since that seems to be your most pressing demand to this discussion...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/itin.asp


As quoted by article you presented.

"As stated in the example quoted in the head of this article, four of those ten addresses were located in Atlanta, Georgia, with one address accounting for a total of nearly 24,000 different tax returns and over $46,000,000 in refunds. However, whether such information is indicative of widespread tax fraud involving the use of ITINs by non-citizens cannot be determined from the information provided."

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/itin.asp#QxKPXyDYZrEtcFVW.99
 
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anon(4698833)

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And that's fine, that's your opinion that it's not a problem...in my opinion, it is clearly a problem. The government seemed to agree with me as well, as they addressed it with a partial fix via overhaul. At the end of the day, the IRS has issues it needs to address, and in my honest opinion, it needs a pretty significant renovation from the tax code to the entity itself.
 

hydrogen3

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Thoughts and prayers to the families of the two NYPD police officers killed.


Sent from my iPhone 5s using 100% recycled electrons and of course Tapatalk
 

acadia11

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And that's fine, that's your opinion that it's not a problem...in my opinion, it is clearly a problem. The government seemed to agree with me as well, as they addressed it with a partial fix via overhaul. At the end of the day, the IRS has issues it needs to address, and in my honest opinion, it needs a pretty significant renovation from the tax code to the entity itself.

Stocks have no more value than the value people believe they have. Of course, the IRS will do something about it, it's PR issue not a revenue issue. That's my point. 50 million is a drop in the bucket it's like when people were like oh we cut 100 million here or there. So what the budget was almost 4 trillion dollars, do realize 1 trillion is 1000 billion is 1million million.

Things have no meaning without context and relativity. The sweet is never as sweet without the sour.
 

anon(4698833)

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Stocks have no more value than the value people believe they have. Of course, the IRS will do something about it, it's PR issue not a revenue issue. That's my point. 50 million is a drop in the bucket it's like when people were like oh we cut 100 million here or there. So what the budget was almost 4 trillion dollars, do realize 1 trillion is 1000 billion is 1million million.

Things have no meaning without context and relativity. The sweet is never as sweet without the sour.

And my point was that $50 million was one example...a tiny sample size of the overall issue. Let's pretend that that single incident was the only example of fraud though, the issues that ripple from it don't stop at the monetary damage alone, they stream out in several directions, including having that $50 million possibly working it's way completely out of our economic system because of the way many illegal immigrants filter portions of their money AWAY from the country.

Again, your point is your own stand alone thought on the subject, and kind of irrelevant to my initial point. Instead of addressing my initial point, you went off on a tangent of your own...which is fine and all, but doesn't diminish my original point at all, even if you disagree with my original point.
 

acadia11

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And my point was that $50 million was one example...a tiny sample size of the overall issue. Let's pretend that that single incident was the only example of fraud though, the issues that ripple from it don't stop at the monetary damage alone, they stream out in several directions, including having that $50 million possibly working it's way completely out of our economic system because of the way many illegal immigrants filter money AWAY from the country.

Again, your point is your own stand alone thought on the subject, and kind of irrelevant to my initial point. Instead of addressing my initial point, you went off on a tangent of your own...which is fine and all, but doesn't diminish my original point at all, even if you disagree with my original point.

Illegal immigrants generate money. This is also studied.
 

anon(4698833)

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Illegal immigrants generate money. This is also studied.

Very true, and one of the many reasons why illegal immigrants, at times, bring more good than bad to our country...but we aren't discussing the merits or negative aspects of illegal immigrants here, my comments were specifically in relation to the IRS, how it is managed and the problems that have been exposed over the last several years that will require a pretty significant overhaul to the department of treasury as a whole, and not just spotlighting pieces and putting bandaids on them.
 

hydrogen3

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Seventeen years have already passed since the Internal Revenue Service made its own “policy decision” to “’legalize’ illegal aliens.”

IRS


CNSNEWS:

As a result of the IRS's policy, by 2010, according to TIGTA, the service was paying out $4.2 billion in refundable "Additional Child Tax Credits" to illegal aliens. In 2011, according to TIGTA, the IRS would pay more than $46 million in tax refunds to what theoretically were 23,994 illegal aliens who all used the same address in Atlanta.
 
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acadia11

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Seventeen years have already passed since the Internal Revenue Service made its own ?policy decision? to ??legalize? illegal aliens.?

IRS


CNSNEWS:

As a result of the IRS's policy, by 2010, according to TIGTA, the service was paying out $4.2 billion in refundable "Additional Child Tax Credits" to illegal aliens. In 2011, according to TIGTA, the IRS would pay more than $46 million in tax refunds to what theoretically were 23,994 illegal aliens who all used the same address in Atlanta.

Cnsnews.com? I'm looking for a publication by tigta on such a study.
 

acadia11

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Very true, and one of the many reasons why illegal immigrants, at times, bring more good than bad to our country...but we aren't discussing the merits or negative aspects of illegal immigrants here, my comments were specifically in relation to the IRS, how it is managed and the problems that have been exposed over the last several years that will require a pretty significant overhaul to the department of treasury as a whole, and not just spotlighting pieces and putting bandaids on them.

My comment was in reference to your hypothesis that 50 million could taken out our system. Your comment was based on a what if, and I was stating for fact studies show specifically Mexican illegal immigrants are an economic boom to the uS.
 

anon(4698833)

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My comment was in reference to your hypothesis that 50 million could taken out our system. Your comment was based on a what if, and I was stating for fact studies show specifically Mexican illegal immigrants are an economic boom to the uS.

The post was edited as you were responding, you just happened to post faster than I was able to edit it. I added "portions" of the money were taken out of our economy...and the truth is, that isn't a hypothesis at all, it's an absolute fact.
 

acadia11

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And this is what I found its not even a case of fraud again, it's a case of tax law, There is no law that says someone with an ITIN can not get this credit since they are filing taxes and presumably have a W2. The ITIN exists exactly so someone who is illegal can at least Do the right thing and file taxes.

"The IRS issues individual taxpayer identification numbers, or ITINs, to individuals who do not have Social Security Numbers (SSNs) and are not authorized to work in the United States to facilitate their filing of tax returns. But Federal policy is unclear as to whether such individuals are entitled to receive refundable tax credits. Federal law denies such individuals the Earned Income Tax Credit and most Federal public benefits. IRS management?s view is that the law does not provide sufficient legal authority for the IRS to disallow the ACTC to unauthorized workers."
 

acadia11

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The post was edited as you were responding, you just happened to post faster than I was able to edit it. I added "portions" of the money were taken out of our economy...and the truth is, that isn't a hypothesis at all, it's an absolute fact.

You peaked my interest on the issue, and what I discovered is that the ITIN exists for illegals to file taxes. This is its purposes. Also, there is no law that states they can't get the earned income credit since these individuals are presumably filing taxes and have a w2 or some proof income. Now further analysis I would suspect the address doing the filing is a business and it could be fraud or not fraud, it could be providing a service to file and receive refunds for people who do not know how to. In any case, there seems to be a few issues at play. And further investigation is needed to understand if it's actually fraud, the level of the fraud, but for sure the action of getting earned income credit is an issue of tax law.

"The IRS issues individual taxpayer identification numbers, or ITINs, to individuals who do not have Social Security Numbers (SSNs) and are not authorized to work in the United States to facilitate their filing of tax returns. But Federal policy is unclear as to whether such individuals are entitled to receive refundable tax credits. Federal law denies such individuals the Earned Income Tax Credit and most Federal public benefits. IRS management?s view is that the law does not provide sufficient legal authority for the IRS to disallow the ACTC to unauthorized workers."
 
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