1. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    I mean by design the IRS isn't that bad on paper, but I can see it needing to be overhauled. I don't really mind taxes either. When I used to get checks or pay various taxes for this or that, I don't think "taxes need to die", but I think a better more defined tax system on income would be a good welcome for starters.
    The IRS is a horribly mismanaged mess...and I think it really suffers from an unattractiveness it developed over the last few decades because of the system's pre-historic foundation that hasn't really ever been overhauled as much as just having addendum's pinned to it for 50 years to accommodate various financial powers within our country.

    I think the problem facing such an overhaul though is the top of the monetary food chain in the United States. It's become top heavy in so many ways that changing the foundation would almost certainly cause instability, and would make many/most of those companies and individuals start looking overseas (relevant to our website, this is something a lot of people have been critical of Apple over...given some of their taxable revenue practices).

    It's going to take a very VERY influential core to start such a renovation of the countries revenue and taxation system...which brings even more hurdles to the situation, considering a lot of people's problem with the IRS is that they don't consider it a true branch of the government...what would people think of a system reconfigured by the only people influential enough to actually do it?
    12-20-2014 03:26 PM
  2. acadia11's Avatar
    The IRS is a horribly mismanaged mess...and I think it really suffers from an unattractiveness it developed over the last few decades because of the system's pre-historic foundation that hasn't really ever been overhauled as much as just having addendum's pinned to it for 50 years to accommodate various financial powers within our country.

    I think the problem facing such an overhaul though is the top of the monetary food chain in the United States. It's become top heavy in so many ways that changing the foundation would almost certainly cause instability, and would make many/most of those companies and individuals start looking overseas (relevant to our website, this is something a lot of people have been critical of Apple over...given some of their taxable revenue practices).

    It's going to take a very VERY influential core to start such a renovation of the countries revenue and taxation system...which brings even more hurdles to the situation, considering a lot of people's problem with the IRS is that they don't consider it a true branch of the government...what would people think of a system reconfigured by the only people influential enough to actually do it?
    How is the irs horribly mismanaged it process hundreds of millions of returns in months, everything is electronic its pretty seamless consider in the volume and the task that needs to be achieved its not perfect.

    Now if the question is our tax laws that's different , and that's a product of legislation. But the actual efficiency of the IRS , the implementation and execution of this laws is pretty good.
    12-20-2014 03:50 PM
  3. Scatabrain's Avatar
    How is the irs horribly mismanaged it process hundreds of millions of returns in months, everything is electronic its pretty seamless consider in the volume and the task that needs to be achieved its not perfect.

    Now if the question is our tax laws that's different , and that's a product of legislation. But the actual efficiency of the IRS , the implementation and execution of this laws is pretty good.
    There was the one time that one person did that thing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    12-20-2014 04:20 PM
  4. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    How is the irs horribly mismanaged it process hundreds of millions of returns in months, everything is electronic its pretty seamless consider in the volume and the task that needs to be achieved its not perfect.

    Now if the question is our tax laws that's different , and that's a product of legislation. But the actual efficiency of the IRS , the implementation and execution of this laws is pretty good.
    Efficiency in processing tax returns isn't the problem...it's the issuance of ITIN numbers to people who should not have them based on their citizenship status, abuse of power when it comes to auditing and their standards of practice when choosing who gets audited (AKA: targeting), extreme cases of government resource wastefulness by field offices and agents, sweeping misconduct of IRS investigators and agents under the rug...amongst many other things I can't think of off the top of my head.

    The truth is, they responded to a lot of it...and how? By making a blanket move of freezing employee promotions and cutting bonuses offered all the way down to entry level positions. Essentially, instead of going after the specifics, they punished the entire branch of employees.

    I worked for the federal government as a LEO for almost a decade. I had a lot of time to sit and absorb this stuff as it was happening all around me, and had several close acquaintances and friends who were in the thick of the entire investigation that happened a few years ago, and ended up directly affected.

    So yes, I feel mismanaged is a perfect term for the IRS. Processing tax returns is just a piece of what that service is responsible for...and a pretty cut and dry one at that.
    12-20-2014 05:19 PM
  5. acadia11's Avatar
    Efficiency in processing tax returns isn't the problem...it's the issuance of ITIN numbers to people who should not have them based on their citizenship status, abuse of power when it comes to auditing and their standards of practice when choosing who gets audited (AKA: targeting), extreme cases of government resource wastefulness by field offices and agents, sweeping misconduct of IRS investigators and agents under the rug...amongst many other things I can't think of off the top of my head.

    The truth is, they responded to a lot of it...and how? By making a blanket move of freezing employee promotions and cutting bonuses offered all the way down to entry level positions. Essentially, instead of going after the specifics, they punished the entire branch of employees.

    I worked for the federal government as a LEO for almost a decade. I had a lot of time to sit and absorb this stuff as it was happening all around me, and had several close acquaintances and friends who were in the thick of the entire investigation that happened a few years ago, and ended up directly affected.

    So yes, I feel mismanaged is a perfect term for the IRS. Processing tax returns is just a piece of what that service is responsible for...and a pretty cut and dry one at that.
    Can you provide the statistics of ITIN numbers being given to people which shouldn't have them? I will bet this is one of those again political myths , because of "prejudice" people want to be true but actually isn't . Much like black people are welfare cases waiting to happen and they vote so they get more welfare . Forget the actual facts that 97% of blacks are not on welfare, and that most social aid goes to elderly whites but hey I digress.

    I would bet that ITIN fraud is low and the impact of it is minimal in terms of dollar cost. But I haven't seen it. I remember they did this for food stamps program in Some state , and they spent more money on the program to detect fraud than actual fraud found, and the most common type of fraud was college students claiming emancipation to get groceries. I'm just saying.

    I don't know all the specifics of the IRS investigation, I'd have to read more. As to the promotions all federal employees had a salary freeze in 2012 not just the IRS. This was as part of the sequestor people demand less money spent on government this is what you get. This is my main issue with GOP today it's full of idealogist as opposed to pragmatics who don't take into account what works or what doesn't work. They like ideology far more than what's functional. Like the government shouldn't spend money, etc... If we did that during the recession we would have had a 10 year recession.
    Last edited by acadia11; 12-20-2014 at 06:34 PM.
    12-20-2014 06:00 PM
  6. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    To be honest, I don't care enough about it at this moment to find the numbers, but it was significant enough to draw a pretty serious amount of attention from their internal investigative unit of TIGTA. And to be honest, even if the number was low (which it was not), the effects ripple out to a HUGE financial issue to the U.S. because of what ITIN's allow people to do that they would have a hard or impossible time doing otherwise.

    But the original point was mismanagement, and any one of those points would be call for management changes and oversight/accountability investigations. To me, that is a cut and dry case of mismanagement.
    12-20-2014 07:22 PM
  7. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Some numbers relatable here in this article...just a quick google search...

    IRS Still Struggling With Tax Treatment Of Immigrants, Changes Rules Again - Forbes

    (my laziness comes in part to me posting and also beating my nieces *** in wii bowling at the moment, lol)
    12-20-2014 07:30 PM
  8. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Also, the position freezes and bonus cuts, while also felt across the board in other sectors (including my own at the time) were a separate event to the IRS investigation repercussions.
    12-20-2014 07:34 PM
  9. acadia11's Avatar
    To be honest, I don't care enough about it at this moment to find the numbers, but it was significant enough to draw a pretty serious amount of attention from their internal investigative unit of TIGTA. And to be honest, even if the number was low (which it was not), the effects ripple out to a HUGE financial issue to the U.S. because of what ITIN's allow people to do that they would have a hard or impossible time doing otherwise.

    But the original point was mismanagement, and any one of those points would be call for management changes and oversight/accountability investigations. To me, that is a cut and dry case of mismanagement.
    This is fine, but that doesn't mean they aren't efficient , and I would argue the issue is the tax code and not the IRS also I wanted specific numbers on people who were using fake ITIN for tax credits
    12-20-2014 10:56 PM
  10. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    This is fine, but that doesn't mean they aren't efficient , and I would argue the issue is the tax code and not the IRS also I wanted specific numbers on people who were using fake ITIN for tax credits
    Just because I can't provide you with specific numbers doesn't mean that it isn't happening...it's not a real important piece of my life to invest that much research into it, but I am aware it is happening (and is not just some over blown issue that is misrepresented...it called for an internal criminal investigation for god's sake).

    As far as efficiency, that's an word you used, not me. I said mismanaged. To be perfectly honest, they're extreme efficient at taking our money.
    12-21-2014 12:00 AM
  11. acadia11's Avatar
    Just because I can't provide you with specific numbers doesn't mean that it isn't happening...it's not a real important piece of my life to invest that much research into it, but I am aware it is happening (and is not just some over blown issue that is misrepresented...it called for an internal criminal investigation for god's sake).

    As far as efficiency, that's an word you used, not me. I said mismanaged.
    this is like science rule number 1, feelings are irrelevant. Again, your argument is based on your presumption that it's an issue, this doesn't mean it actually is, just like I the foods tamp fraud argument, when they actually studied it , they found that there was little fraud and the biggest perpetrators were college students. In fact, the study cost more than the actual fraud they found. So, the issue is whether it's significant enough that it's a problem.

    Again not whether you can find a few cases or not.
    Last edited by acadia11; 12-21-2014 at 12:27 AM.
    12-21-2014 12:04 AM
  12. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    No...your hang up with it is whether it's significant enough. Has no bearing on whether it's a significant problem because that has already been established...and it is a significant problem, so much so that in 2012, they had to change the entire set of regulation and rules surrounding the system of getting an ITIN to try and curb one PIECE of the fraud issue. Not the whole fraud issue, just one piece of it.

    And again, that's just one piece of the list of things I put up top that are clear mismanagement issues, and what I put is just a handful that I could think of off the top of my head.

    Here's another link giving some numbers for you to munch on since that seems to be your most pressing demand to this discussion...

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/itin.asp
    12-21-2014 12:35 AM
  13. acadia11's Avatar
    No...your hang up with it is whether it's significant enough. Has no bearing on whether it's a significant problem because that has already been established...and it is a significant problem, so much so that in 2012, they had to change the entire set of regulation and rules surrounding the system of getting an ITIN to try and curb one PIECE of the fraud issue. Not the whole fraud issue, just one piece of it.

    And again, that's just one piece of the list of things I put up top that are clear mismanagement issues, and what I put is just a handful that I could think of off the top of my head.

    Here's another link giving some numbers for you to munch on since that seems to be your most pressing demand to this discussion...

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/itin.asp
    A political problem is not a significant problem. Again, imho the problem is the tax code in the U.S., not the IRS, it's complex and unruly making oversight difficult, expensive, and compounds the issue of managing fraud, imho.

    The greatest fraud I've heard is from crime syndicates , who essentially file tax returns unbeknownst to people as part of the greater issue of identity theft. While I agree their is mismanagement to an effect in the IRS , I would argue the biggest concern is political , people don't like paying taxes, people are fearful of immigrants, so we scape goat this as a general IRS issue and immigration issue and this I think is simply politics at play.

    You cited one story of 1000s of fraudulent tax returns linked to itin , for $50 million. Which sounds like a large number until you compare it to the overal fraud and overall nber of returns processed.

    It's like NASA $15 billion budget sounds like a lot until you realize our annual budget is $3 trillion dollars and NASAs budget is half a percent,
    .5% of the annual budget, it's pennies literally in comparison to what we spend overall in the budget.
    12-21-2014 09:50 AM
  14. acadia11's Avatar
    No...your hang up with it is whether it's significant enough. Has no bearing on whether it's a significant problem because that has already been established...and it is a significant problem, so much so that in 2012, they had to change the entire set of regulation and rules surrounding the system of getting an ITIN to try and curb one PIECE of the fraud issue. Not the whole fraud issue, just one piece of it.

    And again, that's just one piece of the list of things I put up top that are clear mismanagement issues, and what I put is just a handful that I could think of off the top of my head.

    Here's another link giving some numbers for you to munch on since that seems to be your most pressing demand to this discussion...

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/itin.asp

    As quoted by article you presented.

    "As stated in the example quoted in the head of this article, four of those ten addresses were located in Atlanta, Georgia, with one address accounting for a total of nearly 24,000 different tax returns and over $46,000,000 in refunds. However, whether such information is indicative of widespread tax fraud involving the use of ITINs by non-citizens cannot be determined from the information provided."

    Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes...yDYZrEtcFVW.99
    Last edited by acadia11; 12-21-2014 at 10:29 AM.
    12-21-2014 09:59 AM
  15. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    And that's fine, that's your opinion that it's not a problem...in my opinion, it is clearly a problem. The government seemed to agree with me as well, as they addressed it with a partial fix via overhaul. At the end of the day, the IRS has issues it needs to address, and in my honest opinion, it needs a pretty significant renovation from the tax code to the entity itself.
    12-21-2014 10:23 AM
  16. hydrogen3's Avatar
    Thoughts and prayers to the families of the two NYPD police officers killed.


    Sent from my iPhone 5s using 100% recycled electrons and of course Tapatalk
    12-21-2014 10:36 AM
  17. acadia11's Avatar
    And that's fine, that's your opinion that it's not a problem...in my opinion, it is clearly a problem. The government seemed to agree with me as well, as they addressed it with a partial fix via overhaul. At the end of the day, the IRS has issues it needs to address, and in my honest opinion, it needs a pretty significant renovation from the tax code to the entity itself.
    Stocks have no more value than the value people believe they have. Of course, the IRS will do something about it, it's PR issue not a revenue issue. That's my point. 50 million is a drop in the bucket it's like when people were like oh we cut 100 million here or there. So what the budget was almost 4 trillion dollars, do realize 1 trillion is 1000 billion is 1million million.

    Things have no meaning without context and relativity. The sweet is never as sweet without the sour.
    12-21-2014 10:50 AM
  18. acadia11's Avatar
    Thoughts and prayers to the families of the two NYPD police officers killed.


    Sent from my iPhone 5s using 100% recycled electrons and of course Tapatalk
    Word. Rip. Did they figure out why it happened?
    12-21-2014 10:51 AM
  19. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Stocks have no more value than the value people believe they have. Of course, the IRS will do something about it, it's PR issue not a revenue issue. That's my point. 50 million is a drop in the bucket it's like when people were like oh we cut 100 million here or there. So what the budget was almost 4 trillion dollars, do realize 1 trillion is 1000 billion is 1million million.

    Things have no meaning without context and relativity. The sweet is never as sweet without the sour.
    And my point was that $50 million was one example...a tiny sample size of the overall issue. Let's pretend that that single incident was the only example of fraud though, the issues that ripple from it don't stop at the monetary damage alone, they stream out in several directions, including having that $50 million possibly working it's way completely out of our economic system because of the way many illegal immigrants filter portions of their money AWAY from the country.

    Again, your point is your own stand alone thought on the subject, and kind of irrelevant to my initial point. Instead of addressing my initial point, you went off on a tangent of your own...which is fine and all, but doesn't diminish my original point at all, even if you disagree with my original point.
    12-21-2014 10:57 AM
  20. acadia11's Avatar
    And my point was that $50 million was one example...a tiny sample size of the overall issue. Let's pretend that that single incident was the only example of fraud though, the issues that ripple from it don't stop at the monetary damage alone, they stream out in several directions, including having that $50 million possibly working it's way completely out of our economic system because of the way many illegal immigrants filter money AWAY from the country.

    Again, your point is your own stand alone thought on the subject, and kind of irrelevant to my initial point. Instead of addressing my initial point, you went off on a tangent of your own...which is fine and all, but doesn't diminish my original point at all, even if you disagree with my original point.
    Illegal immigrants generate money. This is also studied.
    12-21-2014 10:58 AM
  21. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Illegal immigrants generate money. This is also studied.
    Very true, and one of the many reasons why illegal immigrants, at times, bring more good than bad to our country...but we aren't discussing the merits or negative aspects of illegal immigrants here, my comments were specifically in relation to the IRS, how it is managed and the problems that have been exposed over the last several years that will require a pretty significant overhaul to the department of treasury as a whole, and not just spotlighting pieces and putting bandaids on them.
    12-21-2014 11:01 AM
  22. hydrogen3's Avatar
    Retaliation for Michael Brown, and Eric Gardner.
    12-21-2014 11:03 AM
  23. hydrogen3's Avatar
    Seventeen years have already passed since the Internal Revenue Service made its own “policy decision” to “’legalize’ illegal aliens.”

    IRS


    CNSNEWS:

    As a result of the IRS's policy, by 2010, according to TIGTA, the service was paying out $4.2 billion in refundable "Additional Child Tax Credits" to illegal aliens. In 2011, according to TIGTA, the IRS would pay more than $46 million in tax refunds to what theoretically were 23,994 illegal aliens who all used the same address in Atlanta.
    Last edited by hydrogen3; 12-21-2014 at 11:25 AM.
    12-21-2014 11:15 AM
  24. acadia11's Avatar
    Seventeen years have already passed since the Internal Revenue Service made its own policy decision to legalize illegal aliens.

    IRS


    CNSNEWS:

    As a result of the IRS's policy, by 2010, according to TIGTA, the service was paying out $4.2 billion in refundable "Additional Child Tax Credits" to illegal aliens. In 2011, according to TIGTA, the IRS would pay more than $46 million in tax refunds to what theoretically were 23,994 illegal aliens who all used the same address in Atlanta.
    Cnsnews.com? I'm looking for a publication by tigta on such a study.
    12-21-2014 05:27 PM
  25. hydrogen3's Avatar
    Google


    Sent from my iPhone 5s using 100% recycled electrons and of course Tapatalk
    12-21-2014 05:29 PM
938 ... 3334353637 ...

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