1. Amamba's Avatar
    It's about jobs and profits. Many seem to think, right or wrong, that trying to impose much stricter regulations would cost hundreds of billions and will only end up in rising costs, lost jobs, decreased profits and pushing the remaining manufacturing to China, India and whoever else can build it cheaper and without much regard for environment. Also there's no consensus among scientists on what needs be done (nobody except a few nut cases really doubts that the climate is changing, the question is what's driving it and what can be done about it). So, without forcing the major developing countries like China, India, Brazil to adapt the same stringent standards, the push to curb emissions in the US will only lead to the implosion of US manufacturing without much real impact on the problem itself. And good luck trying to force China to stop polluting.

    Unfortunately, there's really not much worldwide political will to fix this - a lot of push comes from countries that had already heavily invested in green technologies, for other reasons (many Western European countries) or countries that gave up their manufacturing long ago.

    Put it this way - Germany is all for more stringent worldwide environmental regulations, it also happened to have some of the greenest manufacturing in the world. So not only it is doing the morally right thing, but it is also posed to rip the benefits by becoming more competitive overnight if the Kyoto is ratified and made into international law (they already spent the money, but US would need to spend mucho $$$ to catch up). But China needs to spend $$$$$$$$$ and it's not going to. So Germany is all for this, US is resisting this, China pays lip service to this issue while it continues poisoning it's own air and land and water (although they are starting to push it outside of major metro areas, as people in Shanghai are now wealthy enough, make money in sales, management and finance, and don't want to live with the smog anymore - they would rather let the provinces breathe it.).
    Last edited by Amamba; 10-06-2014 at 10:26 PM.
    10-06-2014 10:04 PM
  2. the_tech_eater's Avatar
    Because religious fanatics don't believe in science. They believe the earth is 2,000 old.
    You obviously don't know anything about what you're talking about.
    10-06-2014 10:18 PM
  3. Amamba's Avatar
    You’re as entitled to your opinion as I am mine - even if yours is 100% false. I’ve stated my opinion, and have seen nothing in the "scientific" propaganda to convince me that I am incorrect.

    Flame on. I’m out.

    Oh, please. The global warming is real.

    The man made contribution to it is real,too. No question about this.

    The impact of man vs forces of nature is unknown and subject to much speculation. The scientists are only beginning to comprehend the forces behind GW. It's only natural that there's much speculation and the models are changing and evolving.

    The ability of governments to stop global warming with regulation is very questionable.

    The political will to do it is simply not there. Not only in the US. The US is just the loudest and has very visible nuts, as usual. But China doesn't want to impose restrictions on it's manufacturing or spend the money required to really modernize it's industrial base, save for cleaning up a few major centers. It wants to remain the competitive low cost producer. So does Brazil. Russia stands to gain from global warming massively - warmer Siberia, disappearance of much of the permafrost that's covering enormous areas, clearing up of the Northern sea routes which are currently frozen most of the year. What's not to like ? Except they are smarter then the US politicians, or less visibly stupid, and do lip service to the cause. Europeans are probably all for it, as they have less manufacturing left, have much more eco friendly populace, much more stringent enviro laws, already spent the money and their corporations will benefit if their competitors will now be forced to play a very expensive catch up. But force them to double or triple the severity of emission restrictions, without any reciprocity from the Chinese, and the European manufacturers will whine just as loudly as the US ones do.
    Last edited by Amamba; 10-06-2014 at 10:53 PM.
    10-06-2014 10:41 PM
  4. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    The will to protect profits is as strong as the will to make them....... which is exactly why the tobacco industry tried to discredit the medical community when first confronted with smoking's effect on lung health, and later denying the purpose of adding nicotine to cigarettes.

    In 1953 the tobacco industry hired Hill & Knowlton to help counteract findings that suggested cigarette smoking led to lung cancer.

    History is repeating itself.

    The onus to protect these profits dwarfs the potential profits of those who oppose them.
    10-06-2014 11:16 PM
  5. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Why is the "debate" a political one? Because the truth falls somewhere in between opposing opinions.
    10-07-2014 12:56 AM
  6. Amamba's Avatar
    Remember the US steel industry ? It's OK, most people don't.

    You can still feel the devastation the collapse of it left behind, 40 years later, if you go to places like Youngstown.

    Yes it is all about profits. Unfortunately, the profits are tied to jobs. I want my kids to live in a livable world. I also don't want them to be poor and miserable. Without forcing China, India, Russia, Brazil, Mexico and other developing countries to adapt - and stick to - the same strict regulations, all we'd achieve is to destroy our jobs - and the global warming will just happily march on. Unlike tobacco, which was just a segment of the economy, and had clear dangers and clear solutions, GW is very poorly understood, the solutions are far from clear, and the global cooperation is guaranteed not to happen.

    So yes, the US has very vocal and often very weird deniers. It's very visible in it's resistance to the proposed solutions. The other countries are much better at PR. But they aren't any more willing to destroy their economies as the US is to destroy ours.
    10-07-2014 09:33 AM
  7. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    I want my kids to live in a livable world. I also don't want them to be poor and miserable..
    If their world is not livable, then they will be poor and miserable.
    A895 likes this.
    10-07-2014 11:14 AM
  8. HAWK's Avatar
    These type of debates can not be won. No matter how hard you try.... Politics and religion you will wear the color off your iPhone keypad trying to get your point across.
    10-07-2014 11:46 AM
  9. Amamba's Avatar
    I
    If their world is not livable, then they will be poor and miserable.

    Does warmer necessarily mean not livable ? Are you familiar with the history of Greenland ?

    Anyway, my point is, it would take the coordinated earnest worldwide effort to try & reduce emissions, with uncertain outcome even if it does happen, in reality this is not going to happen, and while there's plenty of very entertaining deniers of the obvious in the good old US, they are only a small part of the global problem.

    For example, look at Norway. A green, Eco friendly, tree hugging European country, right ? Except when it comes to their own interests. They refuse to ratify the global moratorium on whaling, unlike the evil US. Of course whaling is the important part of Norwegian economy, not so in the US.

    Yes it's an imperfect world. No need to single out just one country, unless it's the one that contributes by far the most to the problem. Which I don't think the US does.
    10-07-2014 12:06 PM
  10. hydrogen3's Avatar
    It is quite amusing how the global warming propaganda machine works. Oh wait.. The Earth "has not warmed for the last 17 years. so now it's climate change....

    The propaganda machine works
    kch50428 likes this.
    10-07-2014 12:58 PM
  11. kch50428's Avatar
    My theory on human activity causing climate change.... If it were indeed true, none of us would be here. Because humanity, as a whole, is a fallible lot and things would have been screwed up way beyond habitability long before now.
    10-07-2014 01:27 PM
  12. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    It is quite amusing how the global warming propaganda machine works. Oh wait.. The Earth "has not warmed for the last 17 years. so now it's climate change....

    The propaganda machine works
    So why is there less Polar ice during the summer every year? Can you explain? or is it more propaganda and not really happening?

    A better question for you...... what makes ice melt?????
    A895 likes this.
    10-07-2014 01:32 PM
  13. kch50428's Avatar
    10-07-2014 01:36 PM
  14. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    You understand that the DailyMail is a TABLOID?

    Is this how you get your information? I will try to find an article from the National Inquirer to refute your source.
    A895 and grover5 like this.
    10-07-2014 01:40 PM
  15. kch50428's Avatar
    You understand that the DailyMail is a TABLOID?

    Is this how you get your information? I will try to find an article from the National Inquirer to refute your source.
    I bet you believe MSNBC is a viable news source... The National Enquirer has been correct on things, and whacked on others...
    hydrogen3 and the_tech_eater like this.
    10-07-2014 01:50 PM
  16. hydrogen3's Avatar
    10-07-2014 01:59 PM
  17. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    I bet you believe MSNBC is a viable news source... The National Enquirer has been correct on things, and whacked on others...
    No... I am using data from:

    • National Snow and Ice Data Center
    • NASA
    • Polar Ice Center
    • University of Washington
    • National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
    • World Meteorological Organization


    ... and you got the DailyMail a British tabloid.
    A895 and grover5 like this.
    10-07-2014 02:15 PM
  18. hydrogen3's Avatar
    No... I am using data from:

    • National Snow and Ice Data Center
    • NASA
    • Polar Ice Center
    • University of Washington
    • National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
    • World Meteorological Organization


    ... and you got the DailyMail a British tabloid.
    They all serve the left-wing effort to promote their political propaganda of climate change . It's a left-wing conspiracy ...
    kch50428 likes this.
    10-07-2014 02:20 PM
  19. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    They all serve the left-wing effort to promote their political propaganda of climate change . It's a left-wing conspiracy ...
    Wow... just wow.
    A895 and grover5 like this.
    10-07-2014 02:26 PM
  20. hydrogen3's Avatar
    Wow... just wow.
    climate change is a left-wing agenda masquerading as science....
    kch50428 likes this.
    10-07-2014 02:32 PM
  21. kch50428's Avatar
    10-07-2014 02:43 PM
  22. Amamba's Avatar
    They all serve the left-wing effort to promote their political propaganda of climate change . It's a left-wing conspiracy ...
    No, denying the climate change is the right wing conspiracy. The change is real. The majority of climate scientists and major research organizations agree on that. But hey, it's a free country - somewhat - so deny it all you want. The beauty of modern school education in the US is that it doesn't really provide a broad systematic knowledge and appreciation of scientific approach to solving complex problems, but it does greatly boost self esteem.

    The problem is in defining just what's causing the global warming, what is the mechanism of change, and what can people do to slow it down or stop it.

    I happen to believe that (1) there's much more at play than just human activity - although human activity definitely contributes to the issue (2) the mechanism is still poorly understood and requires much more research (3) no single country can make a difference alone, and there will be no real concerted effort to do anything - China / Brazil / India / Indonesia / etc. will not put brakes on their developing economies, Canada and Russia actually stand to benefit from the warmer climate, and the US will not commit economic suicide alone. Europe will actually be doing something because they have a strong green lobby that has long ago pushed for stricter environmental regulations (so much of the money has already been spent and they are well ahead of most other countries) plus they don't really have that much manufacturing remaining, with exception of Germany and some parts of Eastern Europe. For them, forcing everyone else into stricter emission / energy consumption standards will be both doing the right thing and leveling the playing field by utilizing the advantage they already have. But I doubt that they would agree to drastically stricter standards than what they have today, either.

    Plus, look at what we know of the climate... several Ice Ages that came and went without any human involvement, the warm spells in between, the Greenland that was actually green in the times of Eric the Red, then came the Little Ice Age around late Middle Ages / early Renaissance - too early for any human contribution; nature is a powerful force all by itself.
    10-07-2014 02:49 PM
  23. kch50428's Avatar
    Yes, there is climate change.

    Humans are not the cause... The climate has changed cyclically since the dawn of time, and human activity can't do thing one about it in any meaningful way. What did humans do that caused the last ice age? What did humans do to end the ice age?
    Ledsteplin and iwoodland like this.
    10-07-2014 02:54 PM
  24. hydrogen3's Avatar
    Yes, there is climate change.

    Humans are not the cause... The climate has changed cyclically since the dawn of time, and human activity can't do thing one about it in any meaningful way. What did humans do that caused the last ice age? What did humans do to end the ice age?
    Bravo....Bravo!!
    10-07-2014 02:56 PM
  25. kilofoxtrot's Avatar
    "Environmentalism as the new face of communism"


    Another wow.... just wow.
    A895 likes this.
    10-07-2014 03:02 PM
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