1. ctt1wbw's Avatar
    So who here lives in North Carolina? Did you know that the police aren't required to have speed detection devices which are ANSI certified, aka radar detectors, in their cars?

    Seems that they are "trained" to accurately determine your speed with just their eyeballs, even if going the opposite way on a two lane road with a huge median between the lanes.

    My wife had her cruise control set at 55 here on Hwy 17 near Jacksonville. A state trooper was on the other side of 17 going north while she was going south. He turned around and gave her a speeding ticket for doing 63 in a 55. He admitted he didn't have a radar gun and wasn't required to have one in order to give tickets.

    Now I ask anyone here, are eyeballs ANSI certified to accurately determine the PRECISE speed of a moving vehicle, even one going south while you are going north, separated by a median?

    I was in the Navy for 20 years, been on 7 surface ships and 4 subs and even I can't accurately determine the speed over water down to the precise knot of a ship, especially one that I am deployed on, and I consider myself very knowledgeable in surface ships and submarines, even foreign navy ships.
    06-06-2012 12:24 PM
  2. BLiNK's Avatar
    He turned around and gave her a speeding ticket for doing 63 in a 55. He admitted he didn't have a radar gun and wasn't required to have one in order to give tickets.

    wow, well that's bullsh!t

    is it even worth going to court and fighting the ticket?
    06-06-2012 01:16 PM
  3. kch50428's Avatar
    is it even worth going to court and fighting the ticket?
    That's what they're counting on.

    Shouldn't be that hard to fight - get the officer on the stand, and make him demonstrate his abilities or lack thereof to guesstimate speed and get the ticket tossed.
    Last edited by kch50428; 06-06-2012 at 01:34 PM.
    06-06-2012 01:27 PM
  4. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    So who here lives in North Carolina?
    i currently reside in NC and have been for a little less than a month.
    . Did you know that the police aren't required to have speed detection devices which are ANSI certified, aka radar detectors, in their cars?
    Yes, but that's true in quite a few states. All police offices and deputies are not traffic officers and thus, there is no need to require them to be certified with speed detection devices.

    Seems that they are "trained" to accurately determine your speed with just their eyeballs, even if going the opposite way on a two lane road with a huge median between the lanes.
    As someone who has been trained with the use of a radar detector (not the laser), I can assure you how easy it is to estimate a vehicle's speed. Furthermore, it will take you less than a full day to get good at it.

    My wife had her cruise control set at 55 here on Hwy 17 near Jacksonville. A state trooper was on the other side of 17 going north while she was going south. He turned around and gave her a speeding ticket for doing 63 in a 55. He admitted he didn't have a radar gun and wasn't required to have one in order to give tickets.
    With the exception of trying to satisfy a quota of some sort or being in a known drug area, I'd argue that many officers wouldn't waste their time for 7 MPH over the limit.

    Now I ask anyone here, are eyeballs ANSI certified to accurately determine the PRECISE speed of a moving vehicle, even one going south while you are going north, separated by a median?
    No, but with training and experience, it is acceptable in court. At least it is in Florida.

    I was in the Navy for 20 years, been on 7 surface ships and 4 subs and even I can't accurately determine the speed over water down to the precise knot of a ship, especially one that I am deployed on, and I consider myself very knowledgeable in surface ships and submarines, even foreign navy ships.
    I hear ya.



    Just Me, D
    (Tapatalk - iPhone 4S)
    Last edited by JustMe'D; 06-07-2012 at 08:31 AM.
    06-06-2012 01:31 PM
  5. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    wow, well that's bullsh!t

    is it even worth going to court and fighting the ticket?
    If there were other cars around AND you've recently had your speedometer re-calibrated (have proof) and you're good at arguing your beliefs/point then go for it.


    Just Me, D
    (Tapatalk - iPhone 4S)
    06-06-2012 01:35 PM
  6. kch50428's Avatar
    This is one instance where if it were me, and I had my Garmin Nuvi along and operational when I got the ticket - I'd take it to court with me, and pull up the Nuvi's track log and show the judge.
    ThePinkChameleon likes this.
    06-06-2012 01:38 PM
  7. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    This is one instance where if it were me, and I had my Garmin Nuvi along and operational when I got the ticket - I'd take it to court with me, and pull up the Nuvi's track log and show the judge.
    It would indeed work in your favor especially if it showed your traveling speed for about 5 miles prior to and including the area where you were stopped.


    Just Me, D
    (Tapatalk - iPhone 4S)
    06-06-2012 01:43 PM
  8. GingerSnapsBack's Avatar
    i currently reside in NC and have been for a little less than a month. Yes, but that's true in quite a few states. All police offices and deputies are not traffic officers and thus, there is no need to require them to be certified with a speed detection devices.

    As someone who has been trained with the use of a radar detector (not the laser), I can assure you how easy it is to estimate a vehicle's speed. Furthermore, it will take you less than a full day to get good at it.

    With the exception of trying to satisfy a quota of some sort or being in a known drug area, I'd argue that many officers wouldn't waste their time for 7 MPH over the limit.

    No, but with training and experience, it is acceptable in court. At least it is in Florida.


    I hear ya.



    Just Me, D
    (Tapatalk - iPhone 4S)
    What D said. I went through classes to become a part time cop but never actually got around to joining the force. Medical coding pays more. In any event, yes, cops in Arkansas who are RADAR and LIDAR certified are also trained to pace vehicles. Like D said, it's easy to guesstimate how fast another car is going if you watch the flow of traffic. Obviously if someone is pulling a Mario Andretti and is zooming past cars, they're speeding but even a few miles an hour over the limit can be noticeable.

    Unless you're in a construction or hauling it through school zone here, most cops won't bother with anything under 10MPH unless they're working seatbelt enforcement, then they'll pull you over for doing 3MPH over, but they can ONLY write tickets if you're not wearing a seatbelt. I got nabbed for doing 2MPH over on a residential street by a cop that was parked who was working seatbelt enforcement. Obviously I didn't get a ticket, but it gave the cop reasonable doubt to stop me to check to see if I had my belt on because at the time, in AR, seat belt offenses on an adult wasn't enough to stop a car.

    To the OP: Look at the ticket for me and see if something is checked. I know in Arkansas, a cop has to check HOW they clocked you speeding whether through mechanical device such as a radar, traffic cam or pacing. I'm interested to see if the cop checked anything or if there's even a spot for that on the ticket.
    Last edited by NobodyListenstoLaura; 06-06-2012 at 02:41 PM.
    Just_Me_D likes this.
    06-06-2012 02:36 PM
  9. pkcable's Avatar
    Coolest experience I ever had with a cop and speeding was when I was speeding down the highway and as I approached the cop on the side of the road he put his hand out the window and waved his arm in a downward motion several times. I then applied some break and slowed my car, and gave him a wave on the way by and he gave me a thumbs up. THEN about 2 miles down the road I hit a major tie up in traffic and was SO glad that cop had slowed me down and it was clear he was there for just that purpose!
    06-06-2012 03:01 PM
  10. ctt1wbw's Avatar
    What D said. I went through classes to become a part time cop but never actually got around to joining the force. Medical coding pays more. In any event, yes, cops in Arkansas who are RADAR and LIDAR certified are also trained to pace vehicles. Like D said, it's easy to guesstimate how fast another car is going if you watch the flow of traffic. Obviously if someone is pulling a Mario Andretti and is zooming past cars, they're speeding but even a few miles an hour over the limit can be noticeable.

    Unless you're in a construction or hauling it through school zone here, most cops won't bother with anything under 10MPH unless they're working seatbelt enforcement, then they'll pull you over for doing 3MPH over, but they can ONLY write tickets if you're not wearing a seatbelt. I got nabbed for doing 2MPH over on a residential street by a cop that was parked who was working seatbelt enforcement. Obviously I didn't get a ticket, but it gave the cop reasonable doubt to stop me to check to see if I had my belt on because at the time, in AR, seat belt offenses on an adult wasn't enough to stop a car.

    To the OP: Look at the ticket for me and see if something is checked. I know in Arkansas, a cop has to check HOW they clocked you speeding whether through mechanical device such as a radar, traffic cam or pacing. I'm interested to see if the cop checked anything or if there's even a spot for that on the ticket.

    Eyeballing is NOT PROOF. If the pace of traffic is ten miles per hour below the posted speed limit and there's a group of cars going together, you simply can NOT accurately determine the speed of those cars if you're going THE OPPOSITE WAY ON A TWO LANE HIGHWAY. Speeding tickets are nothing more than a source of revenue for the county and state.
    06-07-2012 10:05 AM
  11. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Eyeballing is NOT PROOF.
    No, but with training and experience, it is acceptable in court.
    If the pace of traffic is ten miles per hour below the posted speed limit and there's a group of cars going together, you simply can NOT accurately determine the speed of those cars if you're going THE OPPOSITE WAY ON A TWO LANE HIGHWAY.
    Yes, you can. As i aforementioned in a previous reply, you would be surprised at how easy it is and how accurate you become at determining a vehicle's speed whether you're stationary or not.
    Speeding tickets are nothing more than a source of revenue for the county and state.
    True, but a lot of agencies don't depend on it for revenue although others do. Still, there are officers, deputies and troopers in every agency who love and are good at working traffic. Unfortunately, they often suck in other areas of law enforcement.




    Just Me, D
    (Tapatalk - iPhone 4S)
    Last edited by JustMe'D; 06-07-2012 at 12:28 PM.
    GingerSnapsBack likes this.
    06-07-2012 10:31 AM
  12. GingerSnapsBack's Avatar
    Eyeballing is NOT PROOF.
    Argue that in court. See what happens. I worked as a dispatcher and occasional court clerk for almost ten years before I switched to medical coding. I've heard it all. Cops have heard it all. Judges have heard it all. Chances are, you'll lose, but hey, if you want to try it, go for it.

    If the pace of traffic is ten miles per hour below the posted speed limit and there's a group of cars going together, you simply can NOT accurately determine the speed of those cars if you're going THE OPPOSITE WAY ON A TWO LANE HIGHWAY.
    Acutally, you can. That is exactly how we were trained in law enforcement academy. We were in a controlled setting on a portion of a highway that was still closed to the general public. For instance, I was driving with a trained cop in my passenger seat. On the opposite side of the highway, with a grassy median in between us, several other cop cars would come by. The cop in the seat next to mine knew how fast the cars were each going and I had to guess how fast they were. County cops here generally don't have radars in their cars, and that's exactly how they guess. Most of them won't specifically say you were doing 63 in a 55, but rather they paced you doing 5-10MPH over the speed limit.

    Speeding tickets are nothing more than a source of revenue for the county and state.
    After the money is divided up between the county, city and state as well as police funds for widowed and injured officers, each entity gets very little money off speeding tickets.

    If you want to go to jail on the spot, ask the trooper where he keeps all the toaster ovens he gets from ticket writing.
    06-07-2012 11:15 AM
  13. ctt1wbw's Avatar
    If you want to call it training, you can. You are wrong. I bet all the gold in Fort Knox that you precisely determine the speed of a moving vehicle with your eyes. If you want to come to North Carolina and prove me wrong, I'm all for testing. I'll even video tape my speedometer and have a neutral third party in the car and I bet you'll be wrong.

    I did signals analysis in the Navy. You can't do accurate and precise analysis of signals with your eyeballs. It take oscopes and other gear to do that.
    06-10-2012 08:19 AM
  14. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    If you want to call it training, you can. You are wrong. I bet all the gold in Fort Knox that you precisely determine the speed of a moving vehicle with your eyes. If you want to come to North Carolina and prove me wrong, I'm all for testing. I'll even video tape my speedometer and have a neutral third party in the car and I bet you'll be wrong.

    I did signals analysis in the Navy. You can't do accurate and precise analysis of signals with your eyeballs. It take oscopes and other gear to do that.
    Forget about "signal analysis". This is about determining the speed of a moving vehicle without the use of equipment and I'm telling you from experience that it can be done and done accurately. If you don't want to accept it, fine. That is your prerogative and I'll accept it, but don't tell those of us who have actually done this sort of thing that it cannot be done.


    Just Me, D
    (Tapatalk - iPhone 4S)
    GingerSnapsBack likes this.
    06-10-2012 09:12 AM
  15. pkcable's Avatar
    There is a math formula that can be used to determine speed based on time and the distance between 2 points. Could it be the officers are doing this? Of course they would have to have 2 fixed points to use and know the distance between them and then they would have to get the timing right and do the calculations quickly. Of course if it was a "speed trap" these variables are not outside the realm of possibilities. Using math it can be done. But to suggest it simply done with the eyeballs is less believable. It does not require special gear unless you count a brain and a watch as special.
    Last edited by pkcable; 06-10-2012 at 12:17 PM.
    06-10-2012 12:15 PM
  16. GingerSnapsBack's Avatar
    There is a math formula that can be used to determine speed based on time and the distance between 2 points. Could it be the officers are doing this? Of course they would have to have 2 fixed points to use and know the distance between them and then they would have to get the timing right and do the calculations quickly. Of course if it was a "speed trap" these variables are not outside the realm of possibilities. Using math it can be done. But to suggest it simply done with the eyeballs is less believable. It does not require special gear unless you count a brain and a watch as special.
    There is another town just north of the one I used to dispatch for. Their police force was two beat up former city cars but none of their cop cars had radar, so that's exactly how they did speed detection. It took X seconds to get from the stop sign to the caution school zone sign and if you got there faster than X seconds, you were speeding.

    Anyone with two eyes can tell if a car is going faster than other cars coming towards you or passing you, median or not. I do it all the time on the road to pace myself with the other traffic. In Memphis, you do what the other cars are doing, regardless of the speed limit or you'll be ran over and killed. Even most cops won't get on the interstate loop for fear of being mowed down.
    pkcable likes this.
    06-11-2012 10:27 AM
  17. ctt1wbw's Avatar
    Forget about "signal analysis". This is about determining the speed of a moving vehicle without the use of equipment and I'm telling you from experience that it can be done and done accurately. If you don't want to accept it, fine. That is your prerogative and I'll accept it, but don't tell those of us who have actually done this sort of thing that it cannot be done.


    Just Me, D
    (Tapatalk - iPhone 4S)
    No it can't, otherwise the NHRA would use you state troopers to get the mph 3 places past the decimal point. You guys might have received "training" but it's not. Just because it's training, doesn't mean it can be done down to the precise speed. DOBA. Dead on balls accurate.
    06-11-2012 12:33 PM
  18. ctt1wbw's Avatar
    There is another town just north of the one I used to dispatch for. Their police force was two beat up former city cars but none of their cop cars had radar, so that's exactly how they did speed detection. It took X seconds to get from the stop sign to the caution school zone sign and if you got there faster than X seconds, you were speeding.

    Anyone with two eyes can tell if a car is going faster than other cars coming towards you or passing you, median or not. I do it all the time on the road to pace myself with the other traffic. In Memphis, you do what the other cars are doing, regardless of the speed limit or you'll be ran over and killed. Even most cops won't get on the interstate loop for fear of being mowed down.
    Yes, you can tell if a certain car is going faster than others, but that's not a precise speed, now is it?
    06-11-2012 12:34 PM
  19. GingerSnapsBack's Avatar
    Yes, you can tell if a certain car is going faster than others, but that's not a precise speed, now is it?
    le Sigh. Which is why we were told when we paced NOT to write an exact speed on the ticket. We simply checked the box that corresponded with the speed the offender was going over. 0-5MPH. 5-10MPH. 10-15MPH et al. At least in Arkansas, there's a box on the ticket that officers check that says how you were clocked whether radar, LIDAR, pacing or whatever. Speeding is speeding whether you're going a half a mile an hour over or you're in your brand new Ferrari and you just blazed by a cop doing 176 in a 65.

    Look, argue all you want but D and I have told you facts. It appears you're ignoring us. I can't speak for D's training, but I have training. I went through the courses. I have the diploma on my wall that says I can legally work as a certified law enforcement officer should I decide to. Right next to it is my radar certification, LIDAR certification and a bunch of other certifications I got while I was in the academy.

    Go to court. Argue your case. Here, people rarely win speeding ticket cases unless the officer doesn't show up, fails to provide documentation on the calibration of the radar before his or her shift starts or dies before your court case. Officers win speeding ticket cases due to pacing all the time.
    Last edited by NobodyListenstoLaura; 06-11-2012 at 01:26 PM. Reason: I can't spell
    Just_Me_D likes this.
    06-11-2012 01:21 PM
  20. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    No it can't, otherwise the NHRA would use you state troopers to get the mph 3 places past the decimal point. You guys might have received "training" but it's not. Just because it's training, doesn't mean it can be done down to the precise speed. DOBA. Dead on balls accurate.
    We simply agree to disagree and that's okay with me. By the way, I'm not a trooper nor have I ever been. Anyway, like anyone else, you have a 50/50 chance of winning in traffic court should you choose to contest the citation. If you do, I wish you well. Take care.


    Just Me, D
    (iPhone 4S)
    06-11-2012 01:48 PM
  21. pkcable's Avatar
    Speed = Distance/time It's a pretty simple formula and pretty accurate. As long as the cop knows the distance and he gets the timing right he can determine the speed!
    06-11-2012 08:45 PM
  22. ctt1wbw's Avatar
    True, but when you're driving along a two lane road with trees on the side of you, you can't know the distance between every tree, can you? Cops don't know the exact distance between every building and tree on the roads.

    And even if he did, a person's internal clock isn't accurate like a stopwatch.
    06-12-2012 07:30 AM
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