1. DayThyme's Avatar
    If Verizon requires that you give up your unlimited data in order to use your device as a mobile hotspot, then a person using MyWi is circumventing the rules and restrictions of Verizon's contract.
    No. First, it is Verizon's position that your data plan is a FEATURE not a contractual provision. Again that is VERIZON's position, not mine.

    Second just because Verizon says/does/requires something DOES NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM MEAN IT IS LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE or that it is not a violation of their spectrum licenses. Verizon has demonstrated in the past that they will violate these license restrictions and they have been fined for it.

    According to Verizon your data plan is not part of their contract with you. And according to the open access restrictions, they cannot restrict your use of apps when on their 4G LTE network.

    Do you really think Verizon doesn't know we are doing this? Hop on over to the Verizon forum on AC - people are using 30GB - 100GB a month regularly and bragging about it. Verizon knows darn well we are doing it. Do you think they allow this out of the goodness of their hearts? They know they have no legal leg to stand on if they try to stop it. Instead, they took away subsidized upgrades to try to get people off of unlimited data plans.

    ATT can and does detect tethering with unlimited data plans and will throttle your service if you do it and even terminate your service if you keep doing it. Verizon can detect it, too. The only reason Verizon doesn't do the same as ATT is because legally they can't and they know it.

    Latest is that they are offering people 6GB for $30/mo if they will give up their unlimited data plans. Do you think they would offer that if they legally could stop us from tethering.
    Last edited by DayThyme; 12-23-2013 at 03:44 PM.
    12-23-2013 01:39 PM
  2. Ben Salomon's Avatar
    quelle surprise... Pardon my French... Didn't think there'd be a JB until iOS7.1 came out...

    a couple of hours before the release i discussed with a jb dev which insured me that they werent ready and that the tool wouldnt come before february, but the ooo surprise!! a chinese company waves with a big heap of money and guess what!! it occured to be ready yet! this enforces what lots of us are thinking, it was ready for weeks by now, but they wanted more money, so its all about money! .... thank you guys for becoming rich asses on our backs!
    12-23-2013 01:40 PM
  3. DayThyme's Avatar
    You keep harping that point... which begs the question - are you a lawyer? Where are you licensed to practice?
    You are going to have to guess at that because I am not outting myself to make a point here. For the record, whatever work I do is with stuffy corporate types who would not like the attitude I am displaying here. And I like the money they pay me so I will leave it up to you to double check my facts/law and draw your own conclusions.
    12-23-2013 01:46 PM
  4. natasftw's Avatar
    I am wonding that, if you have the time and willingness, if you could help me understand. If I have unlimited data currently, and I contact Verizon about using my phone to tether, will they allow me to keep my unlimited data? If so, will they cap it at a certain amount?
    If you were to call Verizon, they'd require you to change to a tiered plan to gain access to their Mobile Hotspot service. That's how they charge for Mobile Hotspot.

    Let me try another analogy. You buy the brand new Ford Mustang. They include a radio with CD player. They'll offer an additional service for $2k to install ipod control, bluetooth hands-free, and GPS navigation. You're free to take this option at the price they require.

    Conversely, you can go to an audio shop and pay $1,000 to have a similar device installed into the Mustang.

    In both situations, you've paid Ford for the Mustang and you've paid someone for the additional service. Are you stealing from Ford by seeking an alternative solution?

    Another analogy: Let's say Vonage offers unlimited free calls to the US, but charges for international connections. If you buy a Magic Jack for your international friend and use Vonage to call their new US number, are you stealing from Vonage or bundling services to find the best overall solution for you?
    12-23-2013 01:48 PM
  5. i7guy's Avatar
    It's not a loophole. The open access restrictions are only in Verizon's block c licenses. Verizon's licenses to other parts of the spectrum don't have open access restrictions in them. So this isn't a loophole, it is just the terms of the licenses.
    "nothing was mentioned that said they had to allow free tethering on its LTE network."

    Note this in the post above, which is my contention that free tethering, when your account does not have this setup is theft of service and is no different than stealing apps from the app store.
    12-23-2013 01:48 PM
  6. natasftw's Avatar
    "nothing was mentioned that said they had to allow free tethering on its LTE network."

    Note this in the post above, which is my contention that free tethering, when your account does not have this setup is theft of service and is no different than stealing apps from the app store.
    There are several office document readers in the App Store. If you install one, are you stealing from all the others?
    12-23-2013 01:51 PM
  7. i7guy's Avatar
    If you were to call Verizon, they'd require you to change to a tiered plan to gain access to their Mobile Hotspot service. That's how they charge for Mobile Hotspot.

    Let me try another analogy. You buy the brand new Ford Mustang. They include a radio with CD player. They'll offer an additional service for $2k to install ipod control, bluetooth hands-free, and GPS navigation. You're free to take this option at the price they require.

    Conversely, you can go to an audio shop and pay $1,000 to have a similar device installed into the Mustang.

    In both situations, you've paid Ford for the Mustang and you've paid someone for the additional service. Are you stealing from Ford by seeking an alternative solution?
    Bad analogy. A better analogy is the ford dealer will charge you 10 grand to install a certified supercharger fully warrantying the engine and parts. You decide to go for an aftermarket supercharger, which in fact caused an engine problem. You bring it into ford who refuses to fix the engine under warranty as the supercharger violated the magnuson-moss warranty act, as ford was able to prove the aftermarket super charger amounted to unreasonable use.
    12-23-2013 01:54 PM
  8. DayThyme's Avatar
    If Verizon requires that you give up your unlimited data in order to use your device as a mobile hotspot
    Verizon doesn't require that you give up your unlimited data to use your phone as a mobile hotspot. What they do is if you go to settings and attempt to turn on the native mobile hotspot feature, they ask you to agree to pay $30 (this is in addition to the $30 you pay for unlimited data). I have never agreed to pay the additional $30.

    The other point you need to understand is that when Verizon told Google to get apps out of the playstore that allowed tethering, the FCC FINED VERIZON $1.25M FOR ASKING GOOGLE TO TAKING TETHERING APPS OUT OF THE PLAYSTORE. So for even asking Google to take tethering apps out of the playstore the FCC fined Verizon $1.25M, which is chump change to Verizon but is actually quite a large fine as FCC fines go.
    Last edited by DayThyme; 12-23-2013 at 03:45 PM.
    12-23-2013 01:55 PM
  9. DayThyme's Avatar
    Here is some actual law to read

    47 CFR 27.16


    (b) Use of devices and applications. Licensees offering service on spectrum subject to this section shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice on the licensee's C Block network, except:

    (1) Insofar as such use would not be compliant with published technical standards reasonably necessary for the management or protection of the licensee's network, or
    (2) As required to comply with statute or applicable government regulation.
    Soooooooo, they can't restrict our use of the applications of our choice unless (1) or (2) above apply. I choose to use a tethering app and there is not a gd thing Verizon can do about it. AND THAT IS THAT.

    I assure you if there were something Verizon could do about it, there wouldn't be people using 100GB of data a month for $30. And there are and it is because Verizon knows they can't do anything about it.
    12-23-2013 02:01 PM
  10. natasftw's Avatar
    This helps. Thank you. I was not trying to come off as ignorant. I was under the ussumption that to use your mobile device as a hotspot, you were required under contract to use Verizon's offerings and to do otherwise would be illegal of sorts. Since that is not the case, then yes, what I presented earlier would seem absurd and unfounded. But that was the premise I was commenting under. And before you chime in DayThyme, no, I did not take the time to read through all of your posts. I have time and interest, but not that much time and interest.
    They would have a hard time enforcing such a contract. You own the device. You get a service from them. They'd be hard-pressed to show they can legally restrict your ability to use competing services.
    12-23-2013 02:13 PM
  11. natasftw's Avatar
    Bad analogy. A better analogy is the ford dealer will charge you 10 grand to install a certified supercharger fully warrantying the engine and parts. You decide to go for an aftermarket supercharger, which in fact caused an engine problem. You bring it into ford who refuses to fix the engine under warranty as the supercharger violated the magnuson-moss warranty act, as ford was able to prove the aftermarket super charger amounted to unreasonable use.
    Your analogy has an interesting twist. Nobody is going back to Verizon seeking warranty damage. Nobody is asking Verizon to fix the phone. In fact, there isn't a problem that exists. Without that, your analogy is absurd.

    To fix your analogy, it'd be similar to Ford seeking to remove their engine from your car because you opted for the aftermarket supercharger. It'd be similar to Ford voiding your warranty because you received an oil change elsewhere. Those are analogies that make sense.
    12-23-2013 02:16 PM
  12. Lodingi's Avatar
    12-23-2013 02:23 PM
  13. DayThyme's Avatar
    LOL that is assuming you even know what you are talking about.
    Feel free to check my facts. I provided links to actual laws and even quoted the salient points to you.
    12-23-2013 02:25 PM
  14. DayThyme's Avatar
    Those are analogies that make sense.
    But there isn't even a need to make analogies in this case. There is an actual law on this. And the car analogy doesn't work because private property ownership is in no way analogous to license restrictions placed in a license granting the right to use particular frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum.
    12-23-2013 02:31 PM
  15. DayThyme's Avatar
    *sigh*
    funny how you don't have time or interest to check your facts but you do have time and interest to be snarky. lol!
    12-23-2013 02:32 PM
  16. iRy757's Avatar
    I'm determined to be the last person in the US with unlimited data with Verizon, forcing them to knock on my door and offer me millions of dollars to part ways with it.
    DayThyme likes this.
    12-23-2013 02:39 PM
  17. kch50428's Avatar
    I'm determined to be the last person in the US with unlimited data with Verizon, forcing them to knock on my door and offer me millions of dollars to part ways with it.
    There will come a point in time when changing phones you'll have to pick a current plan in order to continue service... and you won't be offered anything other than the opportunity to continue your service...
    12-23-2013 02:41 PM
  18. DayThyme's Avatar
    Once lunch is over, I will continue to brush up on my law-talk for dummies book so I can join in the fun after work
    or you could just click on the link I provided and read the actual law.
    12-23-2013 02:42 PM
  19. DayThyme's Avatar
    I'm determined to be the last person in the US with unlimited data with Verizon, forcing them to knock on my door and offer me millions of dollars to part ways with it.
    I will give up my truly unthrottled, unlimited data when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.
    12-23-2013 02:42 PM
  20. acerace113's Avatar
    There will come a point in time when changing phones you'll have to pick a current plan in order to continue service... and you won't be offered anything other than the opportunity to continue your service...
    That day has come and past with the carriers in Canada... Wouldn't be surprised if the US carriers follow soon...


    Sent from my 5th gen iPod Touch or iPhone 5S using Tapatalk
    12-23-2013 02:44 PM
  21. natasftw's Avatar
    But there isn't even a need to make analogies in this case. There is an actual law on this. And the car analogy doesn't work because private property ownership is in no way analogous to license restrictions placed in a license granting the right to use particular frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum.
    The analogies are simply there to help explain the concept. It's clearly a confusing concept so sticking with pure discussion of regulations and inserting "electromagnetic" doesn't help make things more clear.

    The analogy includes several aspects: both include private ownership. In one, you own the car. In the other, you own the phone.

    Both involve an additional service regulated by the government. Ironically, i7 posted the act that prevents car manufacturers from voiding their warranty because you seek third party solutions. Similarly, the FCC has restrictions on the bands Verizon uses.

    Both include some presumption from one side claiming the company can refuse service if you use third parties.

    Analogies aren't made only when another explanation doesn't exist. They are made when the other explanation isn't offering clarity to the conversation, as it clearly hasn't worked in this conversation. It is interesting to me you haven't bothered to point out Verizon changed their plans to include Mobile Hotspot shortly after having legal issues related to their restrictions. They figured it made more sense to market it as a free feature than to try to charge portions of their users for the service others could easily acquire without their fee.
    12-23-2013 02:51 PM
  22. DayThyme's Avatar
    There will come a point in time when changing phones you'll have to pick a current plan in order to continue service... and you won't be offered anything other than the opportunity to continue your service...
    I am not sure what you mean by this. But Verizon has never discontinued a grandfathered plan. They even honor the ridiculously cheap alltel plans they acquired when they bought some of alltel's holdings.
    12-23-2013 02:51 PM
  23. kch50428's Avatar
    I am not sure what you mean by this. But Verizon has never discontinued a grandfathered plan. They even honor the ridiculously cheap alltel plans they acquired when they bought some of alltel's holdings.
    I know for a fact Verizon has discontinued grandfathered plans - and know people that had it happen. But heck, what do I know... I'm a nobody that knows nothing...
    12-23-2013 03:07 PM
  24. swarlos's Avatar
    I know for a fact Verizon has discontinued grandfathered plans - and know people that had it happen. But heck, what do I know... I'm a nobody that knows nothing...
    I am not sure what you mean by this. But Verizon has never discontinued a grandfathered plan. They even honor the ridiculously cheap alltel plans they acquired when they bought some of alltel's holdings.
    Agreed Keith. What you call taking away your unlimited data if you want to upgrade? I pretty much call that axing grandfathered plans.


    Carried by a raven from the Wall.
    12-23-2013 03:09 PM
  25. i7guy's Avatar
    or you could just click on the link I provided and read the actual law.
    The law says they cant regulate data use on your phone, but they sure as shooting can regulate it if said data is used outside the iphone...also known as hotspot or tethering. You can play internet lawyer all you want, but if without a jb you have to pay 30 dollars and with a jb it's free...it's theft of service.

    I personally don't care but if you are one of the few that gets caught, and if you don't think verizon has the technology think again, don't whine bout it here.
    12-23-2013 03:11 PM
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