1. kch50428's Avatar
    Agreed Keith. What you call taking away your unlimited data if you want to upgrade? I pretty much call that axing grandfathered plans.
    Aside from that... During Verizon's Alltel take-over, there were many discontinued plans - people had the option to pick one of the grandfathered plans, or a current Verizon plan. And when those people who kept Alltel plans eventually got new phones... guess what - they had to go to Verizon plans.
    12-23-2013 03:15 PM
  2. swarlos's Avatar
    Aside from that... During Verizon's Alltel take-over, there were many discontinued plans - people had the option to pick one of the grandfathered plans, or a current Verizon plan. And when those people who kept Alltel plans eventually got new phones... guess what - they had to go to Verizon plans.
    Yep it's inevitably going to happen. Better get ready for the tidal of wave b1tching that's going to come when Verizon starts implementing VoLTE.


    Carried by a raven from the Wall.
    12-23-2013 03:16 PM
  3. DayThyme's Avatar
    The analogies are simply there to help explain the concept. It's clearly a confusing concept so sticking with pure discussion of regulations
    I guess I am so familiar with this sort of writing that it is hard for me to understand how it can be confusing to anyone.


    and inserting "electromagnetic" doesn't help make things more clear.
    We will have to agree to disagree on that. I can't imagine that people don't understand that the right to transmit over a range of particular frequencies of the EM spectrum is very different from selling a car. And if they really can't grasp intangible vs. tangible distinctions, they really shouldn't be accusing people of stealing intangibles since they don't even know what those are.


    The analogy includes several aspects: both include private ownership. In one, you own the car. In the other, you own the phone.
    Yeah but nothing in the car analogy is analogous to the license restrictions as a condition to exclusively use a portion of the public airwaves (trying to dumbdown electrogmagnetic spectrum here, lol!).



    It is interesting to me you haven't bothered to point out Verizon changed their plans to include Mobile Hotspot shortly after having legal issues related to their restrictions. They figured it made more sense to market it as a free feature than to try to charge portions of their users for the service others could easily acquire without their fee.
    Good point, but I think there was more to it than that. The new plans also significantly increased the price of data.

    The new plans charge more for data than talk and text, which is the opposite of the old plans. For instance, a grandfathered individual plan with unlimited minutes is $70 and unlimited text is an extra $20. Minimum tiered data for a smartphone is 2GB for $30. Total = $120, with data being 25% of that.

    Under the new plans, unlimited talk and text are $40 per smartphone but 2GB of data is $60. Total = $100, with data being 60% of that.

    So I think Verizon was repricing data in relation to talk and text in recognition of the higher costs of the 4G LTE network vs. the CDMA network. Data should cost more than talk and text because it costs more for Verizon to deliver 4G LTE service than to deliver talk and text on its CDMA network. And once they go to VoLTE, the bandwidth limitations will make it even more justified to charge more for data.
    12-23-2013 03:22 PM
  4. DayThyme's Avatar
    I know for a fact Verizon has discontinued grandfathered plans - and know people that had it happen. But heck, what do I know... I'm a nobody that knows nothing...
    Did the person make a change to their account? The only time I have seen it happen was when someone wanted to add a line to a plan that was no longer offered. They wouldn't let them add the line and if they wanted to add the line, they had to change to a new plan.
    12-23-2013 03:25 PM
  5. DayThyme's Avatar
    Agreed Keith. What you call taking away your unlimited data if you want to upgrade? I pretty much call that axing grandfathered plans.
    You can still use your unlimited data line's upgrade if you are on a family plan by transferring the upgrade to a tiered data line. You can add a line to transfer the upgrade to if all your lines have unlimited data. It is cost efficient to add the line since you get another subsidized phone with the added line and can get an iPhone and sell it to recoup the costs of the added line. I just did this in January, November and December of this year and still have 2 unlimited data lines and sold the iPhone for more than the cost of the added line.
    12-23-2013 03:27 PM
  6. DayThyme's Avatar
    And when those people who kept Alltel plans eventually got new phones... guess what - they had to go to Verizon plans.
    That was not my understanding from the posters on the AC forums, but I will double check that.
    12-23-2013 03:29 PM
  7. DayThyme's Avatar
    Yep it's inevitably going to happen. Better get ready for the tidal of wave b1tching that's going to come when Verizon starts implementing VoLTE.
    I doubt it. The number of us with unlimited data goes down every year as people switch when they upgrade their phones. Pretty soon there will be hardly any of us left.
    12-23-2013 03:31 PM
  8. natasftw's Avatar
    So I think Verizon was repricing data in relation to talk and text in recognition of the higher costs of the 4G LTE network vs. the CDMA network. Data should cost more than talk and text because it costs more for Verizon to deliver 4G LTE service than to deliver talk and text on its CDMA network. And once they go to VoLTE, the bandwidth limitations will make it even more justified to charge more for data.
    VoLTE will transfer voice from the current spectrum to their LTE band, yes. But, voice traffic has never really increased and it's unlikely VoLTE will change that. It's unlikely it will have enough of an impact to matter. Changing the pricing plans appeared more geared towards family data usage versus the plans you quoted. In those, it doesn't matter what percentage the data makes, the price is still cheaper so the change won't actually offer them anything extra for the data usage.

    As far as the other topic going on, Verizon is requiring new plans for subsidized devices. When they received new phones, they opted to take the subsidized price on a new plan rather than maintain their old plan and pay full price for their device. That's not revoking a grandfathered contract. Anyone that thinks so doesn't understand what it means to revoke the grandfathered plan.

    To my understanding, all of these plans are 2 year agreements followed by month-to-month contracts. While Verizon hasn't killed the data plan, it's a bit silly to think they'd pay anyone "millions" to cancel a month-to-month contract. They've just decided it's worth more money to them to keep you as a customer than they are likely to gain by forcing the plan to change.
    12-23-2013 04:13 PM
  9. natasftw's Avatar

    a couple of hours before the release i discussed with a jb dev which insured me that they werent ready and that the tool wouldnt come before february, but the ooo surprise!! a chinese company waves with a big heap of money and guess what!! it occured to be ready yet! this enforces what lots of us are thinking, it was ready for weeks by now, but they wanted more money, so its all about money! .... thank you guys for becoming rich asses on our backs!
    So, your belief is the tool was ready for weeks but wasn't being released due to a lack of funds.

    Funds appeared and the tool released. So, clearly your conclusion must be correct.

    Isn't this one of the least prepared jailbreaks in the history of jailbreaking? MS isn't ready. None of the packages are ready. It was released just before an expected iOS release that didn't patch the vulnerabilities.

    None of that matches anything that begins to resemble a jailbreak that is ready today, let alone several weeks ago.
    12-23-2013 04:16 PM
  10. DayThyme's Avatar
    Verizon is requiring new plans for subsidized devices.
    Verizon will let you add a line to an existing family plan and get a subsidized phone but the added line can only have tiered data or a basic phone on it. You can then use that line to transfer your unlimited data upgrades to and then switch the phone to your unlimited data line.

    I added a line earlier in the year and have a basic phone I bought off of ebay on the line so it is just $13/mo. I gave the iPhone 5 I got when I added the line to my Mom and sold her iPhone 4s for enough to cover the cost of the new line for 2 years. Then when her unlimited data upgrade came due, I got an iPhone 5s by transferring it to the added line and due to black friday pricing sold that for enough to cover the line for the next 3 years. So the added line is paid for for 5 years and I can transfer mine and my mother's upgrades to it so we can continue to get subsidized phones. And I can use the upgrades that come with the added line to buy iphones and sell them or keep them to use.

    Anyone with a verizon family plan and unlimited data needs to check out this thread on AC:

    [Instruction]How to Keep Unlimited Data on Verizon - Android Forums at AndroidCentral.com

    It's been posted about in this forum, too, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in the process here *shrugs*
    12-23-2013 04:41 PM
  11. Phazenine's Avatar
    Jailbroke as soon as the tweet came out from @evad3rs. Now...theres a lot of drama surrounding this release but if you're not running chinese the malicious stuff in question isn't installed.(Chinese App. Store) Cydia will be updated soon enough to iron out the many bugs. Most of the tweaks,themes etc. on Cydia isn't iOS7 compatible so they won't run. Theres lists of whats currently working. Ive installed the 5 icon dock,Winterboard,Code Theme and iCleaner. The rest will have to wait on Devs to upgrade their software. As far as all this Restore,7.0.4,Backup stuff.My plan is to Just OTA to 7.1 when the time comes unless @saurik & the devs get Cydia & the rest of the best reasons to Jailbreak running lovely. Sure Id lose the JB but if it's still bug riddled why stay.

    EDIT:12/24/13 Cydia Updates to 1.1.9
    Last edited by Phazenine; 12-24-2013 at 01:50 PM.
    12-23-2013 06:57 PM
  12. Jrome.brooks's Avatar
    So should I restore my iphone and erase everything or keep it and wait it out
    12-23-2013 07:59 PM
  13. acerace113's Avatar
    So based on the posts on reddit from planetbeing & saurik the jailbreak is safe to install and DOES NOT install the Chinese App Store for non-Chinese users. Also it has been comfirm that there is no trace of the Chinese app being installed on non Chinese user devices (I can also confirm this). There was also reports of data being sent out this has also been proven wrong (I can also confirm this). Also the team apparently hasn't gotten paid yet. Saurik has also, via a reply that pod2g posted, been working on updating cydia and mobilesubstrate for iOS 7 & recommends to restore to iOS 7.0.4 if you are waiting and wanting to jailbreak. Still this jailbreak should be taken with a grain of salt and I still only recommend to jailbreak at your own risk. I still don't recommend to jailbreak your primary device but I'm not stopping you either.


    Sent from my 5th gen iPod Touch or iPhone 5S using Tapatalk
    rgm1266 likes this.
    12-23-2013 08:17 PM
  14. cgr1971's Avatar
    I want to jailbreak for the tethering but have never done it before so I am going to wait until things seem a bit smoother.

    As far as the tethering being legal, I don't care. I don't feel it is ethical for Verizon to charge me extra for tethering. I am on a older plan but don't have unlimited data. I have 450 minutes of talk, 250 texts, and 2GB of data per month. I want to get a Retina iPad mini and feed it internet via wifi tethering from my iPhone. As long as I don't go over my 2GB limit, it's none of Verizons business whether I surf the web on my phone or the iPad. If I go over my data limit, I expect to pay for the overage and don't have a problem paying, but if I stay under my 2GB limit, I'm using the data I paid for and it's not stealing.
    Mossberg likes this.
    12-23-2013 08:18 PM
  15. acerace113's Avatar
    Updated OP with info

    evasi0n iOS 7.x Jailbreak - official website of the evad3rs

    Compatible with all iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad models running iOS 7.0 - 7.0.4

    Update 1 (December 23th, 2013 12:20 AM eastern time): Do to the events that happened throughout during the day, this is now a use at your own risk jailbreak. I recommend jailbreaking a device that you don't use often to test tweaks as they are updated.

    Update 2 (December 23, 2013 9:01 PM eastern time): So based on the posts on reddit from planetbeing & saurik the jailbreak is safe to install and DOES NOT install the Chinese App Store for non-Chinese users. Also it has been comfirm that there is no trace of the Chinese app being installed on non Chinese user devices (I can also confirm this). There was also reports of data being sent out this has also been proven wrong (I can also confirm this). Also the team apparently hasn't gotten paid yet. Saurik has also, via a reply that pod2g posted, been working on updating cydia and mobilesubstrate for iOS 7 & recommends to restore to iOS 7.0.4 if you are waiting and wanting to jailbreak. This info can be taken with a grain of salt.

    THIS JAILBREAK IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE ON YOUR PRIMARY DEVICE until otherwise stated.

    Sent from my 5th gen iPod Touch or iPhone 5S using Tapatalk



    Sent from my 5th gen iPod Touch or iPhone 5S using Tapatalk
    12-23-2013 09:05 PM
  16. i7guy's Avatar
    https://insidersguide.vzw.com/legal/...t-information/

    See the above link. Regardless of your interpretation of whether tethering is legal or not with unlimited data this is the official policy. I only highlighted those sections I though were of interest.

    Scroll down the document to see this:

    You may use Mobile Hotspot or any other Wi-Fi hotspot or tethering service to use your smartphone or basic phone as a Wi-Fi hotspot or to tether it to your computer or tablet. If you subscribe to a data plan or package with an unlimited data allowance, there is an additional monthly fee to do so.

    and this:

    ■ Data Services: Prohibited Uses

    You may not use our Data Services for illegal purposes or purposes that infringe upon others’ intellectual property rights, or in a manner that interferes with other users’ service; that violates trade and economic sanctions and prohibitions as promulgated by the departments

    of Commerce, Treasury or any other U.S. government agency; that interferes with the network’s ability to fairly allocate capacity among users or that otherwise degrades service quality for other users. Examples of prohibited usage include: (i) server devices or host computer applications that are broadcast to multiple servers or recipients such that they could enable “bots” or similar routines (as set forth in more detail in (ii) below) or otherwise degrade network capacity or functionality; (ii) “auto-responders,” “cancel-bots,” or similar automated or manual routines that generate amounts of net traffic that could disrupt net user groups or email use by others; (iii) generating “spam” or unsolicited commercial or bulk email (or activities that facilitate the dissemination of such email); (iv) any activity that adversely affects the ability of other users or systems to use either Verizon Wireless’ services or the Internet-based resources of others, including the generation or dissemination of viruses, malware or “denial of service” attacks; (v) accessing, or attempting to access without authority, the information, accounts or devices of others, or to penetrate, or attempt to penetrate, Verizon Wireless’ or another entity’s network or systems; or (vi) running software or other devices that maintain continuous active Internet connections when a computer’s connection would otherwise be idle, or “keep alive” functions, unless they adhere to Verizon Wireless’ requirements for such usage, which may be changed from time to time.

    We further reserve the right to take measures to protect our network and other users from harm, compromised capacity or degradation in performance. These measures may impact your service, and we reserve the right to deny, modify or terminate service, with or without notice, to anyone we believe is using Data Plans or Features in a manner that adversely impacts our network. We may monitor your compliance, or other subscribers’ compliance, with these terms and conditions, but we will not monitor the content of your communications except as otherwise expressly permitted or required by law. [See verizonwireless.com/privacy]
    12-23-2013 09:42 PM
  17. natasftw's Avatar
    Why would you bold "accessing, or attempting to access without authority, the information, accounts or devices of others, or to penetrate, or attempt to penetrate, Verizon Wireless’ or another entity’s network or systems?"

    That covers two situations: accessing someone else's devices or penetrating Verizon's servers.

    Neither of those are anything remotely related to tethering.
    DayThyme likes this.
    12-23-2013 09:54 PM
  18. i7guy's Avatar
    Why would you bold "accessing, or attempting to access without authority, the information, accounts or devices of others, or to penetrate, or attempt to penetrate, Verizon Wireless’ or another entity’s network or systems?"

    That covers two situations: accessing someone else's devices or penetrating Verizon's servers.

    Neither of those are anything remotely related to tethering.
    "attempt to penetrate, Verizon Wireless’ or another entity’s network or systems;"

    This is the applicable line. Jailbreaking and tethering without paying the requisite fee, if fee is required not on family share plan but on unlimited data, amounts to penetrating the network(sic). The wording is certainly vague enough to be considered hacking into the system.
    12-23-2013 10:03 PM
  19. natasftw's Avatar
    The wording is rather precise. You're not attempting to penetrate their network. Penetrate is the key word. It's not applicable by any stretch. The only reason you think so is because you do not understand what tethering is or you're hoping to cling to an absurd point.

    Your other point is only relevant to the 3G bands. It is not relevant to the LTE bands. The issue isn't whether or not it's legal to tether. Within the LTE bands, the issue is whether or not it is legal for Verizon to restrict access in any way. If it's not legal, the terms of service are null and void anywhere they attempt to restrict the service. It's similar to me signing a contract with you where you agree to work for $5/hr and waive your right to minimum wage. The clause isn't legal so it cannot be enforced.

    You've made it clear you don't understand what tethering is. You've made it clear you don't understand how to construct an actual argument. You've made it clear your opinion is based entirely on emotion rather than logic, reason, or law. Why exactly are you still arguing your nonsensical point?
    DayThyme likes this.
    12-23-2013 10:26 PM
  20. DayThyme's Avatar
    If it's not legal, the terms of service are null and void anywhere they attempt to restrict the service. It's similar to me signing a contract with you where you agree to work for $5/hr and waive your right to minimum wage. The clause isn't legal so it cannot be enforced.
    Exactly. Thanks. Companies/people can put anything they want into contracts. Doesn't mean it is legal for them to do so and if it is not, they are void, voidable and otherwise unenforceable.
    12-23-2013 10:56 PM
  21. i7guy's Avatar
    The wording is rather precise. You're not attempting to penetrate their network. Penetrate is the key word. It's not applicable by any stretch. The only reason you think so is because you do not understand what tethering is or you're hoping to cling to an absurd point.

    Your other point is only relevant to the 3G bands. It is not relevant to the LTE bands. The issue isn't whether or not it's legal to tether. Within the LTE bands, the issue is whether or not it is legal for Verizon to restrict access in any way. If it's not legal, the terms of service are null and void anywhere they attempt to restrict the service. It's similar to me signing a contract with you where you agree to work for $5/hr and waive your right to minimum wage. The clause isn't legal so it cannot be enforced.

    You've made it clear you don't understand what tethering is. You've made it clear you don't understand how to construct an actual argument. You've made it clear your opinion is based entirely on emotion rather than logic, reason, or law. Why exactly are you still arguing your nonsensical point?
    You can do whatever you want. This is between you and verizon. If you think its nonsensical have at it. If the rest of us have to pay a fee to tether and you do it for free by j/b sounds like hacking to me. If it walks like a duck...
    12-23-2013 11:07 PM
  22. i7guy's Avatar
    Exactly. Thanks. Companies/people can put anything they want into contracts. Doesn't mean it is legal for them to do so and if it is not, they are void, voidable and otherwise unenforceable.
    And so far i havent heard VZW losing a whole lot of cases on this exact subject. They probably have a bigger legal staff than you.
    12-23-2013 11:09 PM
  23. DayThyme's Avatar
    I have 450 minutes of talk, 250 texts, and 2GB of data per month. I want to get a Retina iPad mini and feed it internet via wifi tethering from my iPhone. As long as I don't go over my 2GB limit, it's none of Verizons business whether I surf the web on my phone or the iPad. If I go over my data limit, I expect to pay for the overage and don't have a problem paying, but if I stay under my 2GB limit, I'm using the data I paid for and it's not stealing.
    Per the consent decree, Verizon agreed not to block native tethering if you are on a tiered data plan. You should be able to tether on Verizon using your 2GB plan without jailbreaking.
    12-23-2013 11:09 PM
  24. kch50428's Avatar
    Exactly. Thanks. Companies/people can put anything they want into contracts. Doesn't mean it is legal for them to do so and if it is not, they are void, voidable and otherwise unenforceable.
    Show me where Verizon's T&C as presently written has been found in violation of any law and/or rendered null and void.
    12-23-2013 11:10 PM
  25. natasftw's Avatar
    Show me where Verizon's T&C as presently written has been found in violation of any law and/or rendered null and void.
    Verizon to stop blocking tethering apps, settles with FCC for $1.25 million
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57484000-38/verizon-to-pay-$1.25m-fcc-fine-forced-to-allow-tethering-apps/
    DayThyme likes this.
    12-23-2013 11:18 PM
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