1. mikec#IM's Avatar
    All these other companies..not being GAAP compliant..but Apple is on the ipod Touch? LOL

    Try again.

    The whole issue is Apple charging its customers for a software update. GAAP doesn't force them to do so. How they record or recognize revenue or expenses is irrelevant to me.
    Bingo.
    01-20-2008 03:54 PM
  2. archie's Avatar
    All these other companies..not being GAAP compliant..but Apple is on the ipod Touch? LOL

    Try again.

    The whole issue is Apple charging its customers for a software update. GAAP doesn't force them to do so. How they record or recognize revenue or expenses is irrelevant to me.
    The whole issue is that it is NOT JUST a software update. You are changing the product, making it do something substantially different as advertised. There are not "all these other companies" doing this because they do not add features to the extent that Apple does.

    And GAAP... it may not be law but it is a rule and this rule is enforced by the government. Plain and simple.
    01-20-2008 03:54 PM
  3. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Pure speculation and labeled as such:

    Could there be some sort of usage or license fee paid to Skyhook per unit for the Wi-Fi Google Maps location service? If so, could the subscription accounting model for iPhone allow this to be expensed against the future recognition for iPhone, and against the immediately recognized revenue of iPod Touches sold from this point on, but for previously (already) recognized iPod Touches, be passed on to the consumer so Apple can expense against the upgrade charge?

    Again, pure speculation, and even if there is anything to it, no doubt the debate will rage over whether or not Apple could/should eat it as a gift to early adapters, or how (much) they chose to charge either way...
    Rener,

    Anytime you have a charge, you can get very creative on what expenses go against it. I highly doubt the licensing for any feature is driving the charge. The revenue for an iPhone and Touch (hardware) are realized when the device is sold. The revenue from the carrier fees is realized in each additional month, separate from the hardware.

    The reason for charging the $20 is simple:
    - They can do it, and fanboys will gladly pay the $20
    - The get extra cash they can use for other things
    - The can write off additional expense (internal accounting trick/benefit)

    The bottom line is that Apple loves sticking it to earlier adopters. They've been doing this since the original Mac days. It's one thing they are very consistent about.
    01-20-2008 04:02 PM
  4. archie's Avatar
    The whole issue is Apple charging its customers for a software update.
    Every software company in the world (except for open source stuff of course) charges their customers for software upgrades. Why do you expect Apple to not do so?

    I want a serious answer because I think you have unfounded expectations.
    01-20-2008 04:04 PM
  5. mikec#IM's Avatar
    The whole issue is that it is NOT JUST a software update. You are changing the product, making it do something substantially different as advertised. There are not "all these other companies" doing this because they do not add features to the extent that Apple does.

    And GAAP... it may not be law but it is a rule and this rule is enforced by the government. Plain and simple.
    Nothing you state is "plain and simple".

    GAAP is not enforced by the government, because they are not gov't rules - it is the guide for reporting. The SEC enforces the gov't rules; GAAP is seen as one of the authoritative source in these matters. But I digresss - it still has ZERO to do with squeezing an extra $20 out of people.

    "Other companies don't add features to the extent Apple does"....uh, sure.
    01-20-2008 04:09 PM
  6. archie's Avatar
    I thought you liked being referred to in the thrid person....

    Macbook Pro and MBA are two different beasts.
    mike, why don't you go back and read the original post. I am not sure what else to say.

    "Remote disc" is soooooo amazing (not) Only the Apple RFD could make network file transfer and drive sharing seem new and exciting. This has been done for a long long time.
    Remote Disc also allows you to use these remote discs as Start-up drives and NetBoot. This is something only Macs can do. You of course conveniently fail to mention this.
    01-20-2008 04:10 PM
  7. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Every software company in the world (except for open source stuff of course) charges their customers for software upgrades. Why do you expect Apple to not do so?

    I want a serious answer because I think you have unfounded expectations.
    Even some open source companies charge for updates.

    Let's see...who does updates in the consumer space and does not charge...

    Microsoft, Dell, Lenovo, HP, Netgear, Linksys (Cisco), D-Link, Sprint, Verizon, Palm, Archos, Creative, NVidia, ATI, Intel, AMD...I'm sure we could go on all day.

    If you truly want to treat this as software, most vendors give you free updates for a year.

    So the expectation is not unfounded. It's just odd when a company that is supposedly "customer focused" goes against the grain. People notice it. They think, "you just got my $300, 400, 500 bucks, and not you want to ding me again?"

    Again, as I said, early adopter get no love from Apple.
    01-20-2008 04:20 PM
  8. mikec#IM's Avatar
    mike, why don't you go back and read the original post. I am not sure what else to say.

    Remote Disc also allows you to use these remote discs as Start-up drives and NetBoot. This is something only Macs can do. You of course conveniently fail to mention this.
    Only Mac can boot from the network? Wow I guess that "wake-on-lan" stuff that has been in PC BIOS for years never really existed.

    I can see why you use a mad emoticon...I'd be mad too if I had such a limited view of technoloy.

    Apple invented everything - except the Internet, which was, of course, Al Gore.

    You sure you want to keep putting your foot in your mouth?
    01-20-2008 04:27 PM
  9. archie's Avatar
    Even some open source companies charge for updates.

    Let's see...who does updates in the consumer space and does not charge...

    Microsoft, Dell, Lenovo, HP, Netgear, Linksys (Cisco), D-Link, Sprint, Verizon, Palm, Archos, Creative, NVidia, ATI, Intel, AMD...I'm sure we could go on all day.
    Mike I just went back a couple of years on sites like http://forums.imore.com/e?link=http%...token=FSg6ZcfP for Microsoft and then also Dell, Linksys, D-Link and Netgear.

    NOT one of the 5 companies that I checked had any software upgrades that brought new features. And I couldn't find one instance of a wireless router company upgrading firmware to provide faster connections or adding substantial new features to their gear like Apple has done.

    Every time a company - companies that I do business with - updates their applications with substantial new features, I have to pay for it. Happens with Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, Adobe/Macromedia Contribute, Adobe/Macromedia Flash, Adobe/Macromedia, Adobe ImageReady, Adobe/Macromedia Fireworks, Adobe/Macromedia Dreamweaver, Adobe InDesign, Adobe GoLive, Final Cut Studio, Strata Studio Pro, Adobe After Effects, Roxio Toast, CSSEdit, FileMaker Pro, iWork (only purchased once but still holds), iLife, Little Snitch, Poser, LightWave 3D, Strata 3D CX, RapidWeaver, Transmit, TextMate, SubEthaEdit, TextSoap, SOHO Notes, Data Rescue, DiskWarrior, and no less than 20 other plug-ins for apps ranging from Photoshop to Mail - I have had to pay every single time they release new features. What makes the companies that I buy from different than the companies you buy from?


    If you truly want to treat this as software, most vendors give you free updates for a year.
    I think THIS is what is really eating you. You are coming to realize that Apple really is a software company at heart. Just as I had said many years back. Remember that arguement from years back mikec? Yeh! Is this what brought about your extreme dislike for anything posted under the name of "archie".

    Anyway, I ask you to post an example of a vendor that gives you free updates for a year (NOT A VALUE ADDED VENDOR WHICH IS THE SAME THING AS WHAT APPLE IS DOING WITH THE IPHONE AND APPLE TV).
    01-20-2008 07:51 PM
  10. archie's Avatar
    Only Mac can boot from the network? Wow I guess that "wake-on-lan" stuff that has been in PC BIOS for years never really existed.
    Oh, it exists, it just doesn't do as you suggest.

    I can see why you use a mad emoticon...I'd be mad too if I had such a limited view of technoloy.

    Apple invented everything - except the Internet, which was, of course, Al Gore.

    You sure you want to keep putting your foot in your mouth?
    Well, I hope YOU keep it up because I am getting a good laugh out of your struggling. The only thing I am getting tired of is looking through Dell and Microsoft's web site.
    01-20-2008 08:13 PM
  11. cmaier's Avatar
    mike, why don't you go back and read the original post. I am not sure what else to say.

    Remote Disc also allows you to use these remote discs as Start-up drives and NetBoot. This is something only Macs can do. You of course conveniently fail to mention this.
    My ancient compaq laptop has a netboot option. Press a key (F12?) on startup, and it boots off the network. Never used it, though. I imagine the mac version is much prettier.
    01-20-2008 09:45 PM
  12. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Mike I just went back a couple of years on sites like http://forums.imore.com/e?link=http%...token=z99DUdNf for Microsoft and then also Dell, Linksys, D-Link and Netgear.

    NOT one of the 5 companies that I checked had any software upgrades that brought new features. And I couldn't find one instance of a wireless router company upgrading firmware to provide faster connections or adding substantial new features to their gear like Apple has done.

    Every time a company - companies that I do business with - updates their applications with substantial new features, I have to pay for it. Happens with Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, Adobe/Macromedia Contribute, Adobe/Macromedia Flash, Adobe/Macromedia, Adobe ImageReady, Adobe/Macromedia Fireworks, Adobe/Macromedia Dreamweaver, Adobe InDesign, Adobe GoLive, Final Cut Studio, Strata Studio Pro, Adobe After Effects, Roxio Toast, CSSEdit, FileMaker Pro, iWork (only purchased once but still holds), iLife, Little Snitch, Poser, LightWave 3D, Strata 3D CX, RapidWeaver, Transmit, TextMate, SubEthaEdit, TextSoap, SOHO Notes, Data Rescue, DiskWarrior, and no less than 20 other plug-ins for apps ranging from Photoshop to Mail - I have had to pay every single time they release new features. What makes the companies that I buy from different than the companies you buy from?


    I think THIS is what is really eating you. You are coming to realize that Apple really is a software company at heart. Just as I had said many years back. Remember that arguement from years back mikec? Yeh! Is this what brought about your extreme dislike for anything posted under the name of "archie".

    Anyway, I ask you to post an example of a vendor that gives you free updates for a year (NOT A VALUE ADDED VENDOR WHICH IS THE SAME THING AS WHAT APPLE IS DOING WITH THE IPHONE AND APPLE TV).
    Archie,

    Take the lips off the crack pipe...you obviously have not done even one bit of real research.

    There are thousands of glaring examples - for instance Microsoft Desktop Search...a completely new function, free. Ok, you can eat that crow pie now.

    (I could go on about Netgear as well, but why don't you just spend some time on those release notes and see for yourself.)

    Nice try, but I said if _you_ want to take a software perspective. I remember your argument, and you were wrong then, and are wrong now. Apple is a hardware company- that is where the majority of revenue comes from. They are just a cool, consumer version of Sun.

    As for examples, there are thousands...I already gave you a MS one; how about the Squeezebox adding Pandora? Opps...yea, you missed that too.

    You really, really should lay off the Kool Aid.
    01-20-2008 10:13 PM
  13. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Oh, it exists, it just doesn't do as you suggest.

    Well, I hope YOU keep it up because I am getting a good laugh out of your struggling. The only thing I am getting tired of is looking through Dell and Microsoft's web site.
    If I am so wrong, please explain in detail what Remote Disc does that is so amazing and different.

    As long as you want to come to class, I will continue to school you accordingly.
    01-20-2008 10:15 PM
  14. mikec#IM's Avatar
    My ancient compaq laptop has a netboot option. Press a key (F12?) on startup, and it boots off the network. Never used it, though. I imagine the mac version is much prettier.
    Shhhhhh! No facts! Disruption of the RFD is not allowed!
    01-20-2008 10:16 PM
  15. Rene Ritchie's Avatar
    What's RFD? (We usually use that for Red Flag Deals in Canada, but that seems out of context here?)
    01-21-2008 10:10 AM
  16. archie's Avatar
    Archie,

    Take the lips off the crack pipe...you obviously have not done even one bit of real research.

    There are thousands of glaring examples - for instance Microsoft Desktop Search...a completely new function, free. Ok, you can eat that crow pie now.
    BWAH, HA, Ha, Ha, ha, ha!

    This is too good!




    Sarbanes-Oxley actually started mandating that this sort of functionality be available to consumers. Microsoft had to release Microsoft Desktop Search... and we all know the release was bogus in that it only found the same limited results (no e-mail or contact database searching, extremely slow... etc.) as what was already there from the built in search.


    Nice try, but I said if _you_ want to take a software perspective. I remember your argument, and you were wrong then, and are wrong now. Apple is a hardware company- that is where the majority of revenue comes from. They are just a cool, consumer version of Sun.
    Whatever. Look, the evidence is there. And additional information continues to pile up to support this fact - like this subscription accounting so that they can continue offering the software, Apple's self proclamation of being a "software" company, board members only being from "software" companies, plus all the reasons from before.

    Not even sure why you would care one way or the other. Why does this fact offend you so much?


    As for examples, there are thousands...I already gave you a MS one; how about the Squeezebox adding Pandora? Opps...yea, you missed that too.
    Pandora is a completely separate company... and it's a completely separate service. On top of that, you have to pay for it!
    01-21-2008 11:32 AM
  17. archie's Avatar
    If I am so wrong, please explain in detail what Remote Disc does that is so amazing and different.
    I already did
    01-21-2008 11:38 AM
  18. archie's Avatar
    My ancient compaq laptop has a netboot option. Press a key (F12?) on startup, and it boots off the network. Never used it, though. I imagine the mac version is much prettier.
    hmmm. Well, it must not have worked very well if they no longer let there computers do it.

    So it can do this wirelessly huh?
    01-21-2008 11:39 AM
  19. cmaier's Avatar
    hmmm. Well, it must not have worked very well if they no longer let there computers do it.

    So it can do this wirelessly huh?
    I don't know whether or not they still let their laptops do it. The model is an R3000, which I got about 3 years back. I imagine that other models had that function, too; this is consumer laptop, not a commercial one. I'm guessing that most of their consumer laptops had that function (and might still have it).

    Like I said, I've never used it (I just see that every time I boot I get the message on the screen that tells me to hold a key to boot off the network).

    Since it has built-in 802.11g wireless, I assume it can use it, but I won't swear to it.

    Of course, every unix machine i've ever owned has booted off the network (not wirelessly, though).

    By the way, did you just say that SOX made microsoft add desktop search? Did I misread that?
    01-21-2008 12:40 PM
  20. mikec#IM's Avatar
    What's RFD? (We usually use that for Red Flag Deals in Canada, but that seems out of context here?)
    My bad...RDF...Reality Distortion Field.
    01-21-2008 05:37 PM
  21. mikec#IM's Avatar
    BWAH, HA, Ha, Ha, ha, ha!

    This is too good!




    Sarbanes-Oxley actually started mandating that this sort of functionality be available to consumers. Microsoft had to release Microsoft Desktop Search... and we all know the release was bogus in that it only found the same limited results (no e-mail or contact database searching, extremely slow... etc.) as what was already there from the built in search.


    Whatever. Look, the evidence is there. And additional information continues to pile up to support this fact - like this subscription accounting so that they can continue offering the software, Apple's self proclamation of being a "software" company, board members only being from "software" companies, plus all the reasons from before.

    Not even sure why you would care one way or the other. Why does this fact offend you so much?


    Pandora is a completely separate company... and it's a completely separate service. On top of that, you have to pay for it!

    So SOX is the reason MS released Desktop Search? I guess you aren't just on crack, but meth and special-k too. Again, SOX has nothing to do with it.

    Have you every used Desktop Search? Bogus? Hardly. I think you need to look at:
    http://forums.imore.com/e?link=http%...token=UF1ArH5Q

    It does emails, contacts, etc....all the things you say it doesn't. You don't even know what you are talking about, yet you spout out untrue statements with such authority.


    As for Apple being a hardware company, it's you who are offended, not I. I just observe a fact. Apple makes most of it's money from hardware. Sure, they make software to support their hardware (and no one elses). They broker content, which is like a media company. They get a cut of telco revenues. But at the end of the day the vast majority of $$$ come from one place - gadgets in peoples hands. So it's a hardware company.

    As for the Board of Directors, again, you open your mouth without looking at facts:

    Bill Campbell - Intuit Corp. - Software
    Millard Drexler - J. Crew - Retail
    Albert Gore Jr. - Govt
    Steve Jobs
    Andrea Jung - Avon Products - Fashion Retail
    Arthur D. Levinson, Ph. D. -Genentech - Biotech
    Dr. Eric Schmidt - Google - Software (but really Media/Advertising); Google sells very little software and hardware relative to their Ad stuff.
    Jerry York - Financial Services/Capital Markets

    Actually, this is a pretty good board; good representative good, except for Schmidt, who really is the example of "better to be lucky than good". But again, these are not all "software" folks.

    As for Pandora, who cares if it's separate company or if it costs $$...the fact is a product feature was added at no cost.

    Had enough yet?
    01-21-2008 05:59 PM
  22. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I already did
    No, you did not. If you can't or don't want to, just say so.

    That's okay, I will do it for you:

    http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?...80118143319155

    So basically Apple has made software (installed in both locations), and code extension to support this.

    Good for them.

    So it's not Wake-On-LAN, but just redirected boot (albeit wirelessly, which may be useful; I think sharing the optical drive is the main use).

    I guess we should clarify netboot, wake-on-lan, and all that fun stuff so it's clear.
    01-21-2008 05:59 PM
  23. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I don't know whether or not they still let their laptops do it. The model is an R3000, which I got about 3 years back. I imagine that other models had that function, too; this is consumer laptop, not a commercial one. I'm guessing that most of their consumer laptops had that function (and might still have it).

    Like I said, I've never used it (I just see that every time I boot I get the message on the screen that tells me to hold a key to boot off the network).

    Since it has built-in 802.11g wireless, I assume it can use it, but I won't swear to it.

    Of course, every unix machine i've ever owned has booted off the network (not wirelessly, though).

    By the way, did you just say that SOX made microsoft add desktop search? Did I misread that?
    Wake-on-lan only works with wired Ethernet cards (specialized products and esoteric hacks notwithstanding); it will (generally) not work with wi-fi for a variety of tech reasons. Network booting is similar, although not the same. As you mention, this is very common in Unix and Ethernet (wired) invironments.

    The difference is that Apple has made something where, if you install software on both the host and the MBA, you can do this "wirelessly" from the MBA. It's still not wake-on-lan, unless they have a hook into the suspend mode and keep the wi-fi card active (which they may have done; haven't seen enough details on the spec. Details are sketchy, but I am sure they will follow once it's out there more.

    No, you did not misread it - the gov't, via SOX made MS create and release WDS, according to Archie.
    01-21-2008 06:28 PM
  24. cmaier's Avatar
    That would be a truly bizarre contention.
    01-21-2008 06:45 PM
  25. archie's Avatar
    As for the Board of Directors, again, you open your mouth without looking at facts:

    Bill Campbell - Intuit Corp. - Software
    Millard Drexler - J. Crew - Retail
    Albert Gore Jr. - Govt
    Steve Jobs
    Andrea Jung - Avon Products - Fashion Retail
    Arthur D. Levinson, Ph. D. -Genentech - Biotech
    Dr. Eric Schmidt - Google - Software (but really Media/Advertising); Google sells very little software and hardware relative to their Ad stuff.
    Jerry York - Financial Services/Capital Markets

    Actually, this is a pretty good board; good representative good, except for Schmidt, who really is the example of "better to be lucky than good". But again, these are not all "software" folks.
    You have misunderstood the context. I thought putting the word software in quotes would communicate what I meant to you but I obviously misjudged your level of comprehension. I said there were only board members from "software" companies as opposed to "hardware" companies. I didn't say they were ALL from software companies.
    01-21-2008 10:51 PM
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