1. beachtrader's Avatar
    http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-973...g=2547-1_3-0-5

    http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/service/battery/

    Replacing the battery on an iPhone will be an expensive and nerve-wracking experience.

    Many phones have removable plates on the back for easy battery replacement. Not the iPhone.

    Apple revealed the details behind its iPhone battery replacement program this week. It's basically the same deal as with the iPod, in that you have to return the unit to Apple for battery replacement, but it's a little more expensive. The service costs $79 plus $6.95 for shipping to replace the battery on an out-of-warranty iPhone, and Apple says it will take three business days.

    The service is also similar to the iPod in that all data is cleared from the iPhone during the replacement process, so you have to make sure that you back up all data on the device before sending it in. Apple says the iPhone battery is good for between 300 to 400 charges before performance will start to decline, which generally is the case for any lithium-ion battery over time. Usually for other phones, you can get a replacement battery and pop it in yourself.
    07-04-2007 06:51 PM
  2. oalvarez's Avatar
    If i still own it I'll cross that bridge at that point when I get there
    07-04-2007 08:10 PM
  3. cmaier's Avatar
    Apparently they'll rent you a replacement for $29 for the duration of the round-trip repair if the phone is no longer in service at the time, fwiw.
    07-04-2007 10:35 PM
  4. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    Apparently they'll rent you a replacement for $29 for the duration of the round-trip repair if the phone is no longer in service at the time, fwiw.
    For a total of $114? Wow! 20% of the retail cost of a phone just to change out its battery!
    07-05-2007 05:32 AM
  5. cmaier's Avatar
    Nice use of addition and division. But, to be fair, do some subtraction. Even on every other phone with replaceable batteries, the replacement battery isn't free.

    A stock replacement battery for my treo 650 lists at around $60.

    So $114-$60=$54, or around a 10% premium over other "comparable" phones.

    Now, take into account that it seems to be a much higher capacity battery than i have in my treo (based merely on talk time, etc.), and then compare to the $89 high capacity battery available for some treos (from third parties).

    So $114-$89=$25, or around a 5% premium over other comparable phones.

    Oh, wait. A subsidized palm costs $100. So 89% of the cost of the phone just to change the battery! eek! run away! what a rip-off! palm buyers are morons! oh, wait. i have a palm. never mind.
    07-05-2007 09:13 AM
  6. vinman's Avatar
    "Apple says the iPhone battery is good for between 300 to 400 charges before performance will start to decline, which generally is the case for any lithium-ion battery over time."

    300-400 charge cycles before performance starts to decline? It doesn't say the battery will fail after 300-400 cycles. With these numbers, it's easy to imagine the device lasting 18-24 months before needing to replace the battery. Not only will we have other battery replacement options by then, we'll all be drooling over the next cool device out there. You don't honestly think this particular iPhone will be your last smartphone, do you?
    07-05-2007 09:20 AM
  7. cmaier's Avatar
    If it's anything like ipods, for many people "start to decline" will, indeed, mean "won't take a charge" after 12-18 months. Time will tell.

    In any event, the cost to deal with it is not outrageous considering people are already forking over big bucks for these things. I'll just keep my fingers crossed that the battery works for me until the 3G iphones come out :-)
    07-05-2007 09:30 AM
  8. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    Nice use of addition and division. But, to be fair, do some subtraction. Even on every other phone with replaceable batteries, the replacement battery isn't free.

    A stock replacement battery for my treo 650 lists at around $60.
    Quick! Get your money back! TreoCentral Store Stock Battery Price: $19.95 Isn't it nice to be able to shop it around? BTW, how much did Palm charge you to rent a phone while they took your Treo away from you for (at least) 3 days to change your battery? :hmm:

    For some reason, Apple's iPhone battery program seemed excessive - $80 phone (or iPod) batteries are just not common around the web (probably unprecedented). Even $60 batteries are the exception and then it's pretty much only for the extended batteries. It struck me as greedy that one of the most expensive, non-subsidizable phones also has the most expensive replacement battery and actually requires you to give up your phone for a period of time just to keep it functional past 18 months or so.

    I guess that's just part of the "revolutionary" nature of this phone: Gouge 'em in the beginning, then re-gouge them in six months with a new (3G) version of the phone, or gouge the slowpokes that keep their original phone in a year or two with the battery scam as an incentive to just buy the new version of the phone instead of doing without for a while. It's ingenious!
    07-05-2007 10:23 AM
  9. cmaier's Avatar
    Yeah, the $19.95 battery sucks, I've tried it. And you are ignoring the fact that, even at treocentral, a hi-capacity battery is more than $80, and that this battery is closer to what the iphone battery is. And my treo battery can't play 20 hours of music, 7 hours of video, etc., so it's only fair to compare against EXTENDED batteries, not the cheapest treo battery you can find.

    And you are now cheating again by asking about the $25 - before you included it in the total cost of the new iphone battery. And, by the way, the $25 is only when the phone is out of warranty. So:

    iphone, in warranty:

    $85.95 for battery replacement
    $0 for rental phone
    ----------
    $85.95

    out of warranty:
    $85.95 for battery
    $25 for rental
    ------------
    $110.95

    $89 Treo 750 hi cap battery
    $0 for rental phone
    ------------
    $89.00

    You can argue that the out-of-warranty cost is a little higher than comparable phones, but anything else is disingenuous. Yes, it would be nice if it was cheaper, but it's certainly not crazy expensive.
    07-05-2007 10:41 AM
  10. oalvarez's Avatar
    perhaps at a later time one might be able to visit his/her local apple store and have it replaced there. further, since the device has just been released, and not being able to predict the future, maybe the battery replacement costs will come down in price in the year to come.
    07-05-2007 12:33 PM
  11. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    perhaps at a later time one might be able to visit his/her local apple store and have it replaced there. further, since the device has just been released, and not being able to predict the future, maybe the battery replacement costs will come down in price in the year to come.
    Perhaps, but it would be a new business model for Apple. Here's their current business model for the 6-year-old iPod product line.
    07-05-2007 04:12 PM
  12. cmaier's Avatar
    I doubt prices will come down. I'd be surprised, though, if when the time comes to replace the battery and if you go to an Apple store they don't offer to just exchange for an in-stock refurbished unit (since, by all accounts, all they will do when you send it in for a new batter is stick a refurbished unit in a new exterior housing and send it to you).
    07-05-2007 04:34 PM
  13. mikec#IM's Avatar
    "Apple says the iPhone battery is good for between 300 to 400 charges before performance will start to decline, which generally is the case for any lithium-ion battery over time."

    300-400 charge cycles before performance starts to decline? It doesn't say the battery will fail after 300-400 cycles. With these numbers, it's easy to imagine the device lasting 18-24 months before needing to replace the battery. Not only will we have other battery replacement options by then, we'll all be drooling over the next cool device out there. You don't honestly think this particular iPhone will be your last smartphone, do you?
    Remember that every time you plug in the iPhone to a power source, you are charging it. That counts as a recharge cycle.

    If you sync music and movies each day, and use the device a lot, you could go through this quickly.

    It's likely most people won't have this issue. I'd be more concerned with overheating or a battery fault.
    07-05-2007 04:57 PM
  14. cmaier's Avatar
    "that counts as a recharge cycle."

    Do you know that for sure? I was under the impression that in rating batteries a "cycle" is a 10%-90% charge (i made those numbers up. but the point is, I thought 90%->100% did not count as a "cycle" but rather as some fraction of a cycle.)
    07-05-2007 05:16 PM
  15. Malatesta's Avatar
    Yeah, the $19.95 battery sucks, I've tried it. And you are ignoring the fact that, even at treocentral, a hi-capacity battery is more than $80, and that this battery is closer to what the iphone battery is. And my treo battery can't play 20 hours of music, 7 hours of video, etc., so it's only fair to compare against EXTENDED batteries, not the cheapest treo battery you can find.

    And you are now cheating again by asking about the $25 - before you included it in the total cost of the new iphone battery. And, by the way, the $25 is only when the phone is out of warranty.
    I'm confused by all of this:

    I just bought an extended 2400mah battery for my 700wx for $39 +$5 shipping. Where are these $90 Treo batteries coming from?

    Second, the warranty issue is also misleading as it is only a 1-year warranty.

    The iPhone battery gets between 300-400 cycles (give or take) which seems for the majority to fall outside of the 1 year window, assuming a 1-charge cycle/day schedule. So unless the battery greatly under performs (highly unlikely) almost all of the battery replacements would be outside of warranty. Plus where does it say that if within warranty, you don't have to pay the $29 rental charge or have a $600 reserve on your CC?

    Outside of just a DOA phone in 30-days after purchase, I don't see them just giving you a new phone.

    Plus there's this when renting a phone from Apple:

    In addition, a reserve against the Customer’s credit card equal to the equipment replacement value of $600, plus applicable taxes (“Equipment Replacement Value”) may be made at any time on or after the Effective Date but prior to the termination of this Agreement.
    7.1. Insurance. Apple will not insure the AppleCare Service Phone during the Rental Period. Customer may elect to insure the AppleCare Service Phone during the Rental Period at his/her own expense.
    7.2. Risk of Loss. Customer is responsible for all malfunctions, failures, damage to or loss of the AppleCare Service Phone, except those due to manufacturing defects and normal wear and tear. In the event of damage or loss to the AppleCare Service Phone for which Customer is responsible, Customer will promptly notify Apple, and either pay Apple (i) an amount equal to the Equipment Replacement Value, or (ii) the cost of repairing the AppleCare Service Phone, if Apple determines that the AppleCare Service Phone is repairable. If Apple determines that the AppleCare Service Phone is not repairable, then option (i) above will apply.
    I'm just saying that's a bit scary--treat that "rental phone" like gold when you have it...:o

    perhaps at a later time one might be able to visit his/her local apple store and have it replaced there. further, since the device has just been released, and not being able to predict the future, maybe the battery replacement costs will come down in price in the year to come.
    Maybe but due to the soldering involved and the delicate nature, it might be beyond the Apple store's abilities. It's not like an iPod battery since it wired and soldered to the logic board.
    07-05-2007 05:30 PM
  16. cmaier's Avatar
    http://store.treocentral.com/content...ories/8-37.htm

    Yes, the $89 is the most expensive battery on there. In reality it ranges all over the place. But, I don't know about treo 700's and 750's, but on the 650 I'd need one heck of a battery to get the talk, standby, movie-playing, and music-playing times that iphone supposedly gets, so picking a 3000+mah battery might be fair.

    As for your "outside the warranty" issue, fair enough. On the other hand, if it happens FAR outside the warranty, you are likely to get a new phone by then, anyway. So, the people who get screwed in this are those whose batteries fail between when the warranty ends and when they would get a new phone. And the amount they get screwed by depends on how you look at it, but is definitely greater than $0, probably greater than $25, but nowhere near as much as $115 as the original poster was alleging.

    As for the "inside the warranty" thing, it was a reporter's quote on some other website which, sadly, i can't remember. The gist of it was that if your phone fails for any reason (not just battery) within the warranty period, you get a rental phone while it's in service.

    "I just don't see them giving you a new phone."

    Me neither, nor is that what i suggested. I believe it's been reported these are all refurbished.

    As for the "$600 reserve on your credit card" I never said you didn't have to have that. i have no idea. Not something I'm concerned with.

    I'm confused by all of this:

    I just bought an extended 2400mah battery for my 700wx for $39 +$5 shipping. Where are these $90 Treo batteries coming from?

    Second, the warranty issue is also misleading as it is only a 1-year warranty.

    The iPhone battery gets between 300-400 cycles (give or take) which seems for the majority to fall outside of the 1 year window, assuming a 1-charge cycle/day schedule. So unless the battery greatly under performs (highly unlikely) almost all of the battery replacements would be outside of warranty. Plus where does it say that if within warranty, you don't have to pay the $29 rental charge or have a $600 reserve on your CC?

    Outside of just a DOA phone in 30-days after purchase, I don't see them just giving you a new phone.

    Plus there's this when renting a phone from Apple:






    I'm just saying that's a bit scary--treat that "rental phone" like gold when you have it...:o


    Maybe but due to the soldering involved and the delicate nature, it might be beyond the Apple store's abilities. It's not like an iPod battery since it wired and soldered to the logic board.
    07-05-2007 05:44 PM
  17. cmaier's Avatar
    "I'm just saying that's a bit scary--treat that "rental phone" like gold when you have it..."

    How about just treating it like your own phone? If you lost your own phone during that period, you'd have to replace it too (assuming you didn't want to switch to a treo 850, now available in pink and green).
    07-05-2007 05:47 PM
  18. mikec#IM's Avatar
    "that counts as a recharge cycle."

    Do you know that for sure? I was under the impression that in rating batteries a "cycle" is a 10%-90% charge (i made those numbers up. but the point is, I thought 90%->100% did not count as a "cycle" but rather as some fraction of a cycle.)
    A cycle is a charge and discharge.

    You charge your iPhone to 100%, use it to 50%, that's a cycle.

    You charge it from 50% to 80%, then use it to 60%, that's a cycle.

    I'm not sure about the above 90%-100%; the technology evolves but I believe the batteries shut off at a certain voltage (do no charge more), and don't kick in again (recharge) until a certain voltage. I think that's what you are referring to.
    07-05-2007 05:55 PM
  19. cmaier's Avatar
    Not exactly what i'm referring to. My point is a "charge" is 0->100% and a discharge is 100%->0%.

    THe effect on the lifespan of running a lithium polymer battery from 100%->90% and then back to 100% (ignoring circuits that prevent charging when it is close to charged, etc.) is less than going from 100%->0% and then back up to 100%.

    And i just found on apple's website, this quote: "Charge Cycle. Using and recharging 100% of battery capacity equals one full charge cycle."

    So your two examples above are not correct. In fact, apple says:

    "A charge cycle means using all of the battery’s power, but that doesn’t necessarily mean a single charge. For instance, you could listen to your iPod for a few hours one day, using half its power, and then recharge it fully. If you did the same thing the next day, it would count as one charge cycle, not two, so you may take several days to complete a cycle."

    So in your first example, that's a half charge (100->50) then in your second it's 20% (80->60). So combined that's 7/10 of a cycle (assuming you started with a full charge).
    07-05-2007 06:06 PM
  20. cmaier's Avatar
    Sorry, forgot the link:

    http://www.apple.com/batteries/
    07-05-2007 06:10 PM
  21. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Sorry, forgot the link:

    http://www.apple.com/batteries/
    Um, that definition is "full charge cycle" is something I've never seen.

    This is RDF at it's finest.
    07-05-2007 06:37 PM
  22. cmaier's Avatar
    The only definition that matters is Apple's, since Apple is the company that said you get 300'ish charge cycles. There's no reality distortion field here. They are saying "you will get 300'ish charge cycles, and this is how we define charge cycle." It's only an RDF if you don't actually get that.

    As an engineer, this definition is similar to the definition we used (though, again, we didn't base it on 100%->0%, but on 90%->10%.)
    07-05-2007 06:42 PM
  23. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Not exactly what i'm referring to. My point is a "charge" is 0->100% and a discharge is 100%->0%.

    THe effect on the lifespan of running a lithium polymer battery from 100%->90% and then back to 100% (ignoring circuits that prevent charging when it is close to charged, etc.) is less than going from 100%->0% and then back up to 100%.

    And i just found on apple's website, this quote: "Charge Cycle. Using and recharging 100% of battery capacity equals one full charge cycle."

    So your two examples above are not correct. In fact, apple says:

    "A charge cycle means using all of the battery’s power, but that doesn’t necessarily mean a single charge. For instance, you could listen to your iPod for a few hours one day, using half its power, and then recharge it fully. If you did the same thing the next day, it would count as one charge cycle, not two, so you may take several days to complete a cycle."

    So in your first example, that's a half charge (100->50) then in your second it's 20% (80->60). So combined that's 7/10 of a cycle (assuming you started with a full charge).
    Um, I think the Apple RDF is in full swing. It's not "a full charge cycle"; it's a charge, discharge cycle, which may or may not include going over 90% charge or less than 10% charge.

    Check out http://www.batteryuniversity.com for "less spin/more filling".

    I don't not the expert on batteries, but considering the iPod and Macbook fiascos, I'm sure Apple isn't either ;-)
    07-05-2007 06:43 PM
  24. mikec#IM's Avatar
    The only definition that matters is Apple's, since Apple is the company that said you get 300'ish charge cycles. There's no reality distortion field here. They are saying "you will get 300'ish charge cycles, and this is how we define charge cycle." It's only an RDF if you don't actually get that.

    As an engineer, this definition is similar to the definition we used (though, again, we didn't base it on 100%->0%, but on 90%->10%.)
    Apple is very smartly being conservative with the 300 cycle comments - sets expectation very low - I am sure many iPhones will last past 2,000 cycles.

    It is RDF because Apple is defining the reality. As an engineer, you should understand fact from spin.
    07-05-2007 06:45 PM
  25. cmaier's Avatar
    Um, I think the Apple RDF is in full swing. It's not "a full charge cycle"; it's a charge, discharge cycle, which may or may not include going over 90% charge or less than 10% charge.

    Check out http://www.batteryuniversity.com for "less spin/more filling".

    I don't not the expert on batteries, but considering the iPod and Macbook fiascos, I'm sure Apple isn't either ;-)

    Anyone else's definition is irrelevant (but see below where I call your bluff). Apple is being their own lexicographer.

    They are saying:

    1) you will get 300-400 charge cycles from the battery
    2) a charge cycle is defined as _________

    Note: think about it logically. Apple could have adopted the "charge/discharge" definition to make you happy, but then they would have spec'd the iphone battery at 600-800 cycles (because everytime you run the battery down by x%, you eventually have to charge it up again by the same amount, or eventually you can't discharge any further).

    Now, to call your bluff and play your little RDF game, here's what batteryuniversity says about what a "cycle" is - (let me know if i missed some other definition):

    What constitutes a discharge cycle?

    "There are no standard definitions that constitute a discharge cycle. Smart batteries that keep track of discharge cycles commonly use a depth-of-discharge of 70% to define a discharge cycle. Anything less than 70% does not count. The reason of the cycle count is to estimate the end-of-battery life.

    A battery often receives many short discharges with subsequent recharges. With the smart battery, these cycles do not count because they stress the battery very little. On satellites, the depth-of-discharge is only about 10%. Such minute discharge cycles put the least amount of stress on the batteries in space. With shallow discharges, however, nickel-based batteries require a periodic deep discharge to eliminate memory.

    Lithium and lead-based batteries do not require a periodic full discharge. In fact, it is better not to discharge them too deeply but charge them more often. Using a larger battery is one way to reduce the stress on a battery. "
    07-05-2007 06:51 PM
110 123 ...
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD