1. cmaier's Avatar
    Apple is very smartly being conservative with the 300 cycle comments - sets expectation very low - I am sure many iPhones will last past 2,000 cycles.

    It is RDF because Apple is defining the reality. As an engineer, you should understand fact from spin.
    Huh?

    So you are saying it will last much longer than 300 cycles? Or that most people have your definition of cycle in mind? I never heard your definition before, and your referenced web site doesn't seem to support it. I would think it would be obvious to anyone that discharging/charging a little bit can't have the same effect as going the whole way.

    And they clearly define what they mean on their website in a place that is easy to find, with a simple URL, and not at all buried.

    Note that even those of us who knew what apple is talking about aren't thrilled, because it sounds like if used moderately to heavily, that's still around 18 months of life (if 300 charges).
    07-05-2007 06:58 PM
  2. Malatesta's Avatar
    "I'm just saying that's a bit scary--treat that "rental phone" like gold when you have it..."

    How about just treating it like your own phone? If you lost your own phone during that period, you'd have to replace it too (assuming you didn't want to switch to a treo 850, now available in pink and green).
    Well, that is certainly true.

    But accidents are accidents and I'm just saying it's one more thing to be liable for--I'm not psyched about having a lean on CC for a loaner phone, but I understand why they do it.

    It just seems like it'd stink to pay $115 for a battery replacement and then have to owe $600 for a loaner phone, or have to insure a loaner phone for a couple of days.

    Either way, going by your revised charge/discharge cycle thing, that would certainly put the majority of users past their 1 year warranty.

    Has anyone figured out a way to insure these devices yet? What are people here doing?
    07-05-2007 07:17 PM
  3. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    You can prolly insure it through a "personal articles" policy from the same people you have your home owners/renters insurance through. Also, about the loaner, why not just keep the phone you currently have as a backup? I have a couple older GSM phones around as backups, if i need it i just sync it with my computer and i have my updated phonebook.
    07-05-2007 09:37 PM
  4. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    What does "Battery tests are conducted using specific iPhone units; actual results may vary." mean (Link)? What's so "specific" about those iPhone units?
    07-05-2007 11:10 PM
  5. cmaier's Avatar
    Legalese. They're trying to avoid warrantying that on any given day you will achieve the same results.

    And from an engineering perspective, even brand new batteries can vary slightly in maximum capacity, etc.
    07-05-2007 11:27 PM
  6. Fafafoooey's Avatar
    http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-973...g=2547-1_3-0-5

    http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/service/battery/

    Replacing the battery on an iPhone will be an expensive and nerve-wracking experience.

    Many phones have removable plates on the back for easy battery replacement. Not the iPhone.

    Apple revealed the details behind its iPhone battery replacement program this week. It's basically the same deal as with the iPod, in that you have to return the unit to Apple for battery replacement, but it's a little more expensive. The service costs $79 plus $6.95 for shipping to replace the battery on an out-of-warranty iPhone, and Apple says it will take three business days.

    The service is also similar to the iPod in that all data is cleared from the iPhone during the replacement process, so you have to make sure that you back up all data on the device before sending it in. Apple says the iPhone battery is good for between 300 to 400 charges before performance will start to decline, which generally is the case for any lithium-ion battery over time. Usually for other phones, you can get a replacement battery and pop it in yourself.

    You forget to mention that this is after the warranty period.



    Apparently they'll rent you a replacement for $29 for the duration of the round-trip repair if the phone is no longer in service at the time, fwiw.

    I call technical support, and they forwarded me to IPhone Specialists department. I am getting a service loaner sent to me, no charge, and I send mine back to them to service, shipping is paid by them. 3 business day turnaround, then back to me, then I ship the loaner back, and they pay the shipping for that too. No problems. No stress. My battery is not lasting very long, so they felt that the battery is faulty. Apple was real good about it, and I did not even have to ask for the loaner to be free, they just waived the fee without my asking.

    So as long as you are under warranty, Apple will take care of you and the IPhone.
    07-06-2007 09:12 AM
  7. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Anyone else's definition is irrelevant (but see below where I call your bluff). Apple is being their own lexicographer.

    They are saying:

    1) you will get 300-400 charge cycles from the battery
    2) a charge cycle is defined as _________

    Note: think about it logically. Apple could have adopted the "charge/discharge" definition to make you happy, but then they would have spec'd the iphone battery at 600-800 cycles (because everytime you run the battery down by x%, you eventually have to charge it up again by the same amount, or eventually you can't discharge any further).

    Now, to call your bluff and play your little RDF game, here's what batteryuniversity says about what a "cycle" is - (let me know if i missed some other definition):

    What constitutes a discharge cycle?

    "There are no standard definitions that constitute a discharge cycle. Smart batteries that keep track of discharge cycles commonly use a depth-of-discharge of 70% to define a discharge cycle. Anything less than 70% does not count. The reason of the cycle count is to estimate the end-of-battery life.

    A battery often receives many short discharges with subsequent recharges. With the smart battery, these cycles do not count because they stress the battery very little. On satellites, the depth-of-discharge is only about 10%. Such minute discharge cycles put the least amount of stress on the batteries in space. With shallow discharges, however, nickel-based batteries require a periodic deep discharge to eliminate memory.

    Lithium and lead-based batteries do not require a periodic full discharge. In fact, it is better not to discharge them too deeply but charge them more often. Using a larger battery is one way to reduce the stress on a battery. "
    No bluff involved, just facts.

    Apple makes it's own reality - that's fine. Lots of organizations do that. But it's not based in an empirical data.

    BatteryU states "no std defintion" because of the variances in technologies - however, there are defacto standards out there, as it is used to measure battey life.
    07-06-2007 12:55 PM
  8. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Anyone else's definition is irrelevant (but see below where I call your bluff). Apple is being their own lexicographer.

    They are saying:

    1) you will get 300-400 charge cycles from the battery
    2) a charge cycle is defined as _________
    This seems pretty straight forward. It doesnt matter what anyone else's definition is if Apple not only tells you how many cycles it will last and tells you what it considers a cycle to be. They could call them anything at that point as long as they define them.
    07-06-2007 01:11 PM
  9. cmaier's Avatar
    Mikec - Huh?

    What are you talking about? Are you trying to say that you don't believe the iphone battery will last through 300-400 "charge cycles" as defined by Apple?

    Or are you trying to say that you just don't like the words Apple uses?

    Because if it's the latter, I don't think anyone cares as long as they know how long the battery will last.

    And I don't understand your empirical data statement. I am sure Apple actually tested the battery or is relying on empirical data relating to batteries with similar chemistry and load profiles. Do you think otherwise, and, if so, where's your evidence? (Because, you know, you should be empirical too.)

    And to what "de facto standards" do you refer? Sources, please.


    Look, you can go on as much as you want and play semantic games to ignore the rules of logic and the laws of science, but right now I have no idea what you are even complaining about. It seems to me that the issues are this:

    1) the battery is not removable and will eventually stop recharging (and its charge life will gradually decrease.) This is bad. We'd all like to know how long it will take before the decrease in charge life is noticeable. Apple says 300-400 full discharges. Based on apparent real-world discharge rates, this comes out somewhere in the range of 18-36 months. This is bad if it dies while out of warranty ($89 + rental). This is less bad if it dies in warranty (maybe rental fee, and certainly hassle).

    2) apple may not be telling the truth. the battery may stop working sooner than 300-400 full discharges. Other than "reality distortion field" and "makes it's own reality" comments which prove nothing, probably the only facts supporting this are past experiences with apple ipods or notebooks, some percentage of which did not live up to stated battery lifespan claims. I don't know what percentage that is, which is a shame, because that would be "empirical data" which you love so much. In my own case I've had three ipods. One had the battery die right when apple predicted. One had the battery die way too soon. One still has the battery going strong, long after apple predicted. That's too small a sample set to draw any conclusions other than "your mileage may vary."

    One thing to note is that the life-per-charge figures (talk time, standby time, audio time, etc.) figures quoted by Apple seem to be holding true for most people (with some doing a little better and some a little worse).

    3) apparently you are a battery engineer and object to apple's use of terminology, despite the fact that their terminology seems to match the terminology used in the one reference you pointed us at (yeah, sucks when I actually read the thing you claim supports your point, doesn't it?) But, of course, "there are defacto [sic] standards out there" so by (supposedly) inventing its own terminology, Apple is a bad bad company. Clearly trying to confuse the public.

    If you are trying to bring up a point other than 1, 2, or 3, please say so. It might be a very good point. I just don't understand it.
    07-06-2007 01:14 PM
  10. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Mikec - Huh?

    What are you talking about? Are you trying to say that you don't believe the iphone battery will last through 300-400 "charge cycles" as defined by Apple?

    Or are you trying to say that you just don't like the words Apple uses?

    Because if it's the latter, I don't think anyone cares as long as they know how long the battery will last.

    And I don't understand your empirical data statement. I am sure Apple actually tested the battery or is relying on empirical data relating to batteries with similar chemistry and load profiles. Do you think otherwise, and, if so, where's your evidence? (Because, you know, you should be empirical too.)

    And to what "de facto standards" do you refer? Sources, please.


    Look, you can go on as much as you want and play semantic games to ignore the rules of logic and the laws of science, but right now I have no idea what you are even complaining about. It seems to me that the issues are this:

    1) the battery is not removable and will eventually stop recharging (and its charge life will gradually decrease.) This is bad. We'd all like to know how long it will take before the decrease in charge life is noticeable. Apple says 300-400 full discharges. Based on apparent real-world discharge rates, this comes out somewhere in the range of 18-36 months. This is bad if it dies while out of warranty ($89 + rental). This is less bad if it dies in warranty (maybe rental fee, and certainly hassle).

    2) apple may not be telling the truth. the battery may stop working sooner than 300-400 full discharges. Other than "reality distortion field" and "makes it's own reality" comments which prove nothing, probably the only facts supporting this are past experiences with apple ipods or notebooks, some percentage of which did not live up to stated battery lifespan claims. I don't know what percentage that is, which is a shame, because that would be "empirical data" which you love so much. In my own case I've had three ipods. One had the battery die right when apple predicted. One had the battery die way too soon. One still has the battery going strong, long after apple predicted. That's too small a sample set to draw any conclusions other than "your mileage may vary."

    One thing to note is that the life-per-charge figures (talk time, standby time, audio time, etc.) figures quoted by Apple seem to be holding true for most people (with some doing a little better and some a little worse).

    3) apparently you are a battery engineer and object to apple's use of terminology, despite the fact that their terminology seems to match the terminology used in the one reference you pointed us at (yeah, sucks when I actually read the thing you claim supports your point, doesn't it?) But, of course, "there are defacto [sic] standards out there" so by (supposedly) inventing its own terminology, Apple is a bad bad company. Clearly trying to confuse the public.

    If you are trying to bring up a point other than 1, 2, or 3, please say so. It might be a very good point. I just don't understand it.
    I believe Apple 300-400 cycle statement - it's conservative, and will likely be higher. I said that in a previous post.

    I am not a battery engineer, again, as previously stated.

    Apple is not a bad company.

    I think reading and comprehension are two different things.

    We can end this topic now.
    07-06-2007 05:56 PM
  11. cmaier's Avatar
    Please, clearly explain to me what I didn't comprehend from batteryuniversity's website. I want to learn from you. Clearly you think the website supports your point of view, since you were the one who initially brought it up to support your argument. I previously asked for a reference to where in that website it says something helpful to your position, but I haven't seen a response. So perhaps the section I quoted is what you consider helpful? If so, please explain how.

    With the limited comprehension afforded me as someone with a B.S., M.S., and a Ph.D. in electrical engineering (not to mention a law degree, which i bring up only because i don't think I could have earned that if I couldn't read), it seems to suggest that what matters in battery lifetime is discharge cycles, which, as I pointed out, is what Apple bases their lifetime estimates on. But clearly I must be misinterpreting it. So, again, please, in clear and succinct terms, either explain to me what I am misunderstanding, or explain to me why you think apple is "distorting reality" or, even better, explain both.

    Otherwise, I think everyone will just assume you want to end the topic because you made a bunch of baseless throw-away remarks about "reality distortion fields" and stuff, that you attempted to back up your baseless remarks by citing a website you didn't read or didn't understand, and, when caught, attempted to trump logical argument by stating that I just don't understand what I read and that you're taking your ball and going home.
    07-06-2007 06:10 PM
  12. bruckwine's Avatar
    What's REALLY upsetting is they soldered the damn thing to the board (unlike iPod batteries which aren't and so user replaceable using eBay purchases)!
    07-06-2007 07:18 PM
  13. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    What's REALLY upsetting is they soldered the damn thing to the board (unlike iPod batteries which aren't and so user replaceable using eBay purchases)!
    Agreed. it wasnt a huge deal to me that there wasn't a user swapable battery, but having it stuck to the damn MB sucks big time.
    07-06-2007 07:22 PM
  14. bruckwine's Avatar
    Agreed. it wasnt a huge deal to me that there wasn't a user swapable battery, but having it stuck to the damn MB sucks big time.
    Figured they lost a bag of potential money when ppl started buying batteries off eBay and replacing it themselves with iPods...now you have almost no choice on who to go to...
    07-06-2007 10:39 PM
  15. cmaier's Avatar
    I dunno. A large percentage of the people willing to crack their ipods open probably are pretty handy with a soldering iron :-)
    07-06-2007 10:53 PM
  16. MacUser's Avatar
    Please, clearly explain to me what I didn't comprehend from batteryuniversity's website. I want to learn from you. Clearly you think the website supports your point of view, since you were the one who initially brought it up to support your argument. I previously asked for a reference to where in that website it says something helpful to your position, but I haven't seen a response. So perhaps the section I quoted is what you consider helpful? If so, please explain how.

    With the limited comprehension afforded me as someone with a B.S., M.S., and a Ph.D. in electrical engineering (not to mention a law degree, which i bring up only because i don't think I could have earned that if I couldn't read), it seems to suggest that what matters in battery lifetime is discharge cycles, which, as I pointed out, is what Apple bases their lifetime estimates on. But clearly I must be misinterpreting it. So, again, please, in clear and succinct terms, either explain to me what I am misunderstanding, or explain to me why you think apple is "distorting reality" or, even better, explain both.

    Otherwise, I think everyone will just assume you want to end the topic because you made a bunch of baseless throw-away remarks about "reality distortion fields" and stuff, that you attempted to back up your baseless remarks by citing a website you didn't read or didn't understand, and, when caught, attempted to trump logical argument by stating that I just don't understand what I read and that you're taking your ball and going home.
    Was that a gauntlet I saw?! The fans will be waiting...
    07-07-2007 09:16 AM
  17. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Please, clearly explain to me what I didn't comprehend from batteryuniversity's website. I want to learn from you. Clearly you think the website supports your point of view, since you were the one who initially brought it up to support your argument. I previously asked for a reference to where in that website it says something helpful to your position, but I haven't seen a response. So perhaps the section I quoted is what you consider helpful? If so, please explain how.

    With the limited comprehension afforded me as someone with a B.S., M.S., and a Ph.D. in electrical engineering (not to mention a law degree, which i bring up only because i don't think I could have earned that if I couldn't read), it seems to suggest that what matters in battery lifetime is discharge cycles, which, as I pointed out, is what Apple bases their lifetime estimates on. But clearly I must be misinterpreting it. So, again, please, in clear and succinct terms, either explain to me what I am misunderstanding, or explain to me why you think apple is "distorting reality" or, even better, explain both.

    Otherwise, I think everyone will just assume you want to end the topic because you made a bunch of baseless throw-away remarks about "reality distortion fields" and stuff, that you attempted to back up your baseless remarks by citing a website you didn't read or didn't understand, and, when caught, attempted to trump logical argument by stating that I just don't understand what I read and that you're taking your ball and going home.
    I always wondered how to define "owned."
    07-07-2007 01:38 PM
  18. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Please, clearly explain to me what I didn't comprehend from batteryuniversity's website. I want to learn from you. Clearly you think the website supports your point of view, since you were the one who initially brought it up to support your argument. I previously asked for a reference to where in that website it says something helpful to your position, but I haven't seen a response. So perhaps the section I quoted is what you consider helpful? If so, please explain how.

    With the limited comprehension afforded me as someone with a B.S., M.S., and a Ph.D. in electrical engineering (not to mention a law degree, which i bring up only because i don't think I could have earned that if I couldn't read), it seems to suggest that what matters in battery lifetime is discharge cycles, which, as I pointed out, is what Apple bases their lifetime estimates on. But clearly I must be misinterpreting it. So, again, please, in clear and succinct terms, either explain to me what I am misunderstanding, or explain to me why you think apple is "distorting reality" or, even better, explain both.

    Otherwise, I think everyone will just assume you want to end the topic because you made a bunch of baseless throw-away remarks about "reality distortion fields" and stuff, that you attempted to back up your baseless remarks by citing a website you didn't read or didn't understand, and, when caught, attempted to trump logical argument by stating that I just don't understand what I read and that you're taking your ball and going home.
    No need to brag about your degrees (if you even have them; rattling off pedigree on internet forums is like a flashing sign of "BS"); it just adds to the fact you don't understand the original intent of the posts. The prisms in your glasses were set when you walked in the room.

    The only reason I comment to end the topic is that it's course is run; but if you want to keep it going, you go ahead and do that. Go ahead and throw in some more "baseless" insults while you are at it - you may pump up you PD cred.

    Apple makes up facts to suit their mission (just like many other companies). Sorry if that gives you some indigestion, barrister.
    07-08-2007 04:59 PM
  19. mikec#IM's Avatar
    What's REALLY upsetting is they soldered the damn thing to the board (unlike iPod batteries which aren't and so user replaceable using eBay purchases)!
    The crucial four words overhead during the battery design stage of the iPhone:

    Show me the money!
    07-08-2007 05:02 PM
  20. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Was that a gauntlet I saw?! The fans will be waiting...
    I think it was more of a "my wiener is bigger than yours" statement.
    07-08-2007 05:04 PM
  21. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I always wondered how to define "owned."
    It that's your defn of pwned, then you've been, as they say on SP, FITA.
    07-08-2007 05:26 PM
  22. cmaier's Avatar
    No need to brag about your degrees (if you even have them; rattling off pedigree on internet forums is like a flashing sign of "BS"); it just adds to the fact you don't understand the original intent of the posts. The prisms in your glasses were set when you walked in the room.

    The only reason I comment to end the topic is that it's course is run; but if you want to keep it going, you go ahead and do that. Go ahead and throw in some more "baseless" insults while you are at it - you may pump up you PD cred.

    Apple makes up facts to suit their mission (just like many other companies). Sorry if that gives you some indigestion, barrister.
    1) "Apple makes up facts..." We are all still waiting to hear what those made up facts are. It sounded like it had something to do with batteries, but I guess not? Repeating a statement over and over doesn't make it true. True, it's a proven technique to get people to believe you, but I think the people on this board are a little brigher than that.

    2) My Ph.D. dissertation is actually on-line. Happy to share the url and other evidence with anyone who PM's me, but based on people's reaction to your statements, I doubt anyone actually cares.

    3) "you don't understand the original intent of the posts..." I admit that. I don't think anyone else does either. Let me reiterate my two earlier requests that you please explain it in words we can all understand. That's all I ask. Forget about the rest of this thread, and go back to your original "apple makes crap up" point (or whatever you are now saying the point is), and please explain it more fully and give supporting evidence. That's all I ask.

    I don't want to insult you. You made a bunch of conclusory statements without evidence, then provided bogus evidence, and now are trying to change the subject. I just think it's important that if you have a point you make it clearly, and if you don't have a point that people who read this board are not confused by your broad unsubstantiated generalizations.
    07-08-2007 06:36 PM
  23. mikec#IM's Avatar
    1) "Apple makes up facts..." We are all still waiting to hear what those made up facts are. It sounded like it had something to do with batteries, but I guess not? Repeating a statement over and over doesn't make it true. True, it's a proven technique to get people to believe you, but I think the people on this board are a little brigher than that.

    2) My Ph.D. dissertation is actually on-line. Happy to share the url and other evidence with anyone who PM's me, but based on people's reaction to your statements, I doubt anyone actually cares.

    3) "you don't understand the original intent of the posts..." I admit that. I don't think anyone else does either. Let me reiterate my two earlier requests that you please explain it in words we can all understand. That's all I ask. Forget about the rest of this thread, and go back to your original "apple makes crap up" point (or whatever you are now saying the point is), and please explain it more fully and give supporting evidence. That's all I ask.

    I don't want to insult you. You made a bunch of conclusory statements without evidence, then provided bogus evidence, and now are trying to change the subject. I just think it's important that if you have a point you make it clearly, and if you don't have a point that people who read this board are not confused by your broad unsubstantiated generalizations.
    1.) It's already been stated that what Apple defines is fact is indeed fact/truth. This was earlier in the thread by someone else. I have repreated made it clear that other companies do this, and if you define reality, then you are always correct.

    2.) I too could point to some random person's dissertation. But let's just say you have the bigger weiner and be done with it. Having been through graduate programs myself, it's not that impressive.

    3.) This has already been stated. If you want to ask the question again, with more clarity, I will be glad to answer it again. The point was never that the batteries would or would not fail. You seem to be the only one confused; don't generalize to the whole group.
    07-08-2007 07:52 PM
  24. cmaier's Avatar
    Fine. I'm the only one confused. Please help me out.

    ps: on the "some random person" thing - if you honestly don't believe me, please just PM me and I will send you more than adequate proof of my entire biography. For obvious reasons I don't want to splash details all over the internet. As I own the domain associated with the name of the person who wrote the dissertation (said dissertation being hosted by an .edu, not by my domain), I would happily change my home page on my domain to anything you want. That would prove that whoever owns the domain is me, and a whois would tell you the name of the person who paid for the domain, which will match both the domain name and the name on the dissertation. From there I can send you to the state bar webpage where you can see I passed the bar exam. At which point I guess you'd say "anybody can buy a domain with a fake name matching the name on a ph.d. dissertation from 1996 and the name of someone who passed the bar in 2006, and do so many years ago just for an eventuality such as this." But, if not, I am happy to point you at the data.
    07-08-2007 07:57 PM
  25. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Fine. I'm the only one confused. Please help me out.
    Question, bitte.
    07-08-2007 08:03 PM
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