Biggest iPhone disappointment

[ohbw]

Umm...that's a pretty poor analogy IMO.

I meant to be humorous, Count! (While, of course, suggesting that you should all take a close look at the merits of pink, rosy women).

And we can agree that no device is perfect for everyone. I don't game or IM or do a host of other things, so yes, I weight the approachability and the stability of the device above having every possible function or being able to download an encyclopedia in 22 seconds.

There's a lot more that's innovative in the iPhone than prettiness, be real.

I suspect the iPhone will meet you guys halfway in time. As I said in another post, it doesn't make any more sense for Apple to crack a secure platform wide open to just any old developer than it does for Audi to continue to warranty my car if I've chipped it with some insane hot rodder's engine management program that's likely to send valves clattering into pistons in short order. There are competing considerations at work, and Apple balances them differently than some others. For a lot of us, what we gain from that is well worth what we give up. I like having machines that never crash, and can't be infected, and that are hugely friendly to use.

Does Steve Jobs stay up at night thinking of ways to make people read about French cheeses on their iPhones rather than playing Grand Theft Auto? I don't think so. After all, who gave us the wide spectrum of downloadable music (that honors an artist's copyright, i.e., ability to eat)?

 

[ohbw]

Interesting NY Times article today

"As handsets look more like PCs, software gets more important.?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/02/technology/02cellphone.html

 

[CountBuggula]

Now be fair, there is a lot more to it than just GUI. Visual voicemail looks like a good start, and if the phone actually works as demo'd, I like the phone answering and conferencing features - noi question about what you're doing and when.

Um...what part of that isn't User Interface improvements? Yes, it's got a pretty GUI. Yes, the UI is slick. But all the things that people like about the iPhone have to do with those things.

I also want to personally thank Steverino for giving AT&T a kick in the shorts by upping EDGE performance. YES, HSDPA is the only real way to go, but having suffered with 55-80k performance on my Blackjack since November (we are not blessed with 3G here), the new 145-180k we've seen since Friday is a godsend. And with any luck, when Stevie releases the 3G version for Xmas, I'll finally GET 3G in the backwater.

It's better than vanilla EDGE, but it's still no 3G or EVDO.

 

[CountBuggula]

I meant to be humorous, Count! (While, of course, suggesting that you should all take a close look at the merits of pink, rosy women).

Ok, yeah I gotcha. Didn't mean to be a stickler.

And we can agree that no device is perfect for everyone. I don't game or IM or do a host of other things, so yes, I weight the approachability and the stability of the device above having every possible function or being able to download an encyclopedia in 22 seconds.

There's a lot more that's innovative in the iPhone than prettiness, be real.

I suspect the iPhone will meet you guys halfway in time. As I said in another post, it doesn't make any more sense for Apple to crack a secure platform wide open to just any old developer than it does for Audi to continue to warranty my car if I've chipped it with some insane hot rodder's engine management program that's likely to send valves clattering into pistons in short order. There are competing considerations at work, and Apple balances them differently than some others. For a lot of us, what we gain from that is well worth what we give up. I like having machines that never crash, and can't be infected, and that are hugely friendly to use.

You're just repeating what I said, only you don't know it. What's innovative and secure to you is just a closed platform to me. It's the same thing, we just call it different names. And to you, having that pretty GUI and slick UI is worth being locked down to what functionality you get out of the box (and what Apple decides to spoon feed you). And that's fine, as long as you're happy with it. Like I said, it's just how much weight we choose to place on the value of having an open versus closed system and having that great Apple UI.

 

[ohbw]

Um...what part of that isn't User Interface improvements? Yes, it's got a pretty GUI. Yes, the UI is slick. But all the things that people like about the iPhone have to do with those things.



It's better than vanilla EDGE, but it's still no 3G or EVDO.

Okay, visual voicemail is in some sense a user interface. Whatever you call it, it's instantly and appreciably better SOFTWARE, whatever other name we give it, than having to aurally page through voicemails. What does UI mean? It means, effectively, that very wide territory where the man meets and interacts with the machine. That territory that Apple does 3x as good as anyone else.

They didn't go 3G for real and valid and balanced reasons. They will when the chip utility and breadth of the 3G network are viable. Why all the fuss about the fact that this is going to come in six months or a year? Who buys a device like this hoping to still be using it in five years? When a 3G iPhone appears, I'll buy it, and sell my current iPhone for a tidy sum. I've sold three Mac laptops in the last year, all 1-2 years old, for almost what I paid for them. There will be plenty of folks happy to buy an 8GB EDGE iPhone for $425 in six months or a year when 3G iPhones appear, I'll wager.

 

[ohbw]

Ok, yeah I gotcha. Didn't mean to be a stickler.



You're just repeating what I said, only you don't know it. What's innovative and secure to you is just a closed platform to me. It's the same thing, we just call it different names. And to you, having that pretty GUI and slick UI is worth being locked down to what functionality you get out of the box (and what Apple decides to spoon feed you). And that's fine, as long as you're happy with it. Like I said, it's just how much weight we choose to place on the value of having an open versus closed system and having that great Apple UI.

I respectfully disagree. Stable, accessible, and impervious to assault mean a whole lot more than "closed". They mean a machine that works beautifully and reliably and without any availability to hijacking by a 17 year old goth in Germany.

In an analagous way, I'm totally okay with Audi having some say about how the integrity of the A8 they designed and built is maintained over time. It works so magnificently, so much better than any other car I see on the market for so many meaningful real-world purposes -- performance, safety, UI(!), aesthetics -- that I (quite reasonably, I think) am willing to forego another 150 short term horsepower. Yeah, I know what wicked automotive performance is about, I've had 400 hp in a 1900 lb car. And I've had the headache of staying on top of it all the time. Fun? Lots. But over time? Gimme 360 hp, 4WD, the safest crash-worthiness in the industry, the most beautiful cabin this side of a Bentley.

 

[bruckwine]

that's an easy one: they look good, are fun, and more importantly, the entire process is very easy to use. some consumers like its convenience, simplicity, and can afford the real thing and not some substitute product. insert iPhone here.

Matter of opinion..iPods are not that great to me..all i can do on one is play music (NO RADIO - why Apple why?). I have a 15GB iPod 3rd gen (eBayed it) and i find that i just don't use it any more (had to change the battery too but it was 2nd hand so no prob)..ever since I got a treo it's laid in the dust (but now the treo jacks' going bonkers so i may just get a 2GB nano or some other PMP like iAudio) ..I just use it as storage space to hold all my catalog (roughly 13 GB music and climbing)...worst part is the darned cheap iPod headphones that hurt my ears anyway (buds the call 'em)...finally the hard drive stopped spinning so I'm due to replace it and Im not sure i'm going back.

Calling a better PMP a substitute is also rightly a matter of opinion...I think the new creative zen micros look better than shuffles , they're cheaper and they have LCD displays..I think I'll get one of those b4 a shuffle! Apple has always overpriced their stuff whether it's better or worse - it's part of how they make a profit. As SOME ppl always have the need to feel special they'll go and buy i simply for status.

 

[ohbw]

Apple has always overpriced their stuff whether it's better or worse - it's part of how they make a profit. As SOME ppl always have the need to feel special they'll go and buy i simply for status.

Sigh. I can't, at least for the moment, let stuff like this go by. My Macbook Pro at $2K doesn't look overpriced to me. I've never had an OSX crash, or heard of one. That's in over six years of using the OS every single day, all day. I use to have six Win crashes in a day. I've also never spent more than about three minutes waiting for tech support. Is the premium I paid over a Dell/Win catastrof*ck worth it? You betcha.

My Audi cost more than a Cavalier, too. Was it overpriced? Not to me. It's a much mo' bettah machine.

 

[AnteL0pe]

Folks have been claiming Macs are overpriced for years, and it simply isnt true. Macs hold their resale value far better than standard PCs, they have a lower TCO in the long term and they stay usable for longer. My DP 1GHz G4 is like 5-6 years old and is still my main media machine. It's hooked directly into my entertainment center and easily drives my 1080p HDTV with its original graphics card. Not many 6 year old Windows based desktops are still as usable as this machine is.

 

[ohbw]

Exactamente. That an argument is tired, invalid, and patently false has never been an impediment to the Win community. See Gates's outburst a few months ago that OSX crashes every day. Right, and the sun explodes, consuming the Earth, every Tuesday and Friday.

 

[CountBuggula]

Sigh. I can't, at least for the moment, let stuff like this go by. My Macbook Pro at $2K doesn't look overpriced to me. I've never had an OSX crash, or heard of one. That's in over six years of using the OS every single day, all day. I use to have six Win crashes in a day. I've also never spent more than about three minutes waiting for tech support. Is the premium I paid over a Dell/Win catastrof*ck worth it? You betcha.

My Audi cost more than a Cavalier, too. Was it overpriced? Not to me. It's a much mo' bettah machine.

DoubleSigh. Again, it's all about perceived value. By my standards a $2k Macbook Pro is seriously overpriced, but it's because each of us as individuals put different values on different things. I can go and buy a $500 laptop and install Ubuntu Linux on it and have the exact same No-Crashin' experience you've got on your Mac. I also value the ability to run all the software that isn't available on a Mac more than you do. Granted you can use other OS's now with BootCamp but then you're just paying twice as much to do what I can do with a cheaper laptop anyways.

Anyways, the point is that there are those of us who put different amounts of weight on the value of this or that feature. I can deal with some occasional crashes on my Desktop computer at home to have a cheap, powerful gaming rig because of where I personally place the value. You don't want or need that capability, and to you having a machine that never crashes (and that you don't have to set up yourself - see previous comment about Linux) is more valuable so you're willing to shell out an awful lot of extra dough for it. That's fine. We're just different people with different ideas of what's important in a computer. Luckily there's different computers that cater to each of us.

I respectfully disagree. Stable, accessible, and impervious to assault mean a whole lot more than "closed". They mean a machine that works beautifully and reliably and without any availability to hijacking by a 17 year old goth in Germany.

I'll have to respecfully disagree with your disagreement. I really don't see the distinction between closed and stable. Although a "closed device" might not be stable, any device that's stable because it's a closed platform is still just a closed platform. And I really have no idea what you're getting at with the Goth girl thing.

 

[AnteL0pe]

I can go and buy a $500 laptop and install Ubuntu Linux on it and have the exact same No-Crashin' experience you've got on your Mac.

I'm a big linux fan, though i run Fedora on my linux boxes at home, but to compare Linux to OS X isnt really fair. Sure, neither will crash all that often, but OS X offers a far better user experience, far better interface, and a more user friendly OS than any Linux flavor IMHO.

I also value the ability to run all the software that isn't available on a Mac more than you do. Granted you can use other OS's now with BootCamp but then you're just paying twice as much to do what I can do with a cheaper laptop anyways.

Huh? With bootcamp, parallels or VMware Mac owners can load any Linux OS they want, install Wine and run everything you can plus much more.

 

[CountBuggula]

I'm a big linux fan, though i run Fedora on my linux boxes at home, but to compare Linux to OS X isnt really fair. Sure, neither will crash all that often, but OS X offers a far better user experience, far better interface, and a more user friendly OS than any Linux flavor IMHO.

Have you tried Ubuntu lately?

Huh? With bootcamp, parallels or VMware Mac owners can load any Linux OS they want, install Wine and run everything you can plus much more.

Did you miss the part where I already mentioned that? But why would I pay twice the price just to run the same OS's I could run on a cheaper computer?

 

[AnteL0pe]

Have you tried Ubuntu lately?

Havent installed it, but i have played with it briefly. i hear good things, but i'm happy with Fedora or my linux flavor.

Did you miss the part where I already mentioned that? But why would I pay twice the price just to run the same OS's I could run on a cheaper computer?

But you cant run OS X on that machine. That's Apple's advantage, I can run OS X, Winblows, and any flavor of Linux all on the same machine and take advantage of all the available software. Or, as you suggested, forget windows and just stick to OS X and Linux w/ Wine.

Don't get me wrong, i understand that not everyone wants or needs OS X and if thats the case then so be it, it wouldnt make any sense for those people to buy a Mac. But saying that a Ubuntu install is basically the same as OS X is far from the truth.

 

[ohbw]

...why would I pay twice the price just to run the same OS's I could run on a cheaper computer?

Running Linux and running OSX aren't the same thing. You're comparing goats and beautiful French women again, guys. A receptacle does not a lover make, and a lit screen does not a useful, enjoyable computer make.

If a few hundred bucks here and there is determinative to you, save the money (and spend it on anti-virus software and time invested in tech support run-arounds). As I've said, and never heard refuted, all the converts go in one direction. That speaks volumes.

 

[AnteL0pe]

As I've said, and never heard refuted, all the converts go in one direction. That speaks volumes.

True, but not all those who run linux or windows and who have tried OS X have switched either.

 

[CountBuggula]

Running Linux and running OSX aren't the same thing. You're comparing goats and beautiful French women again, guys. A receptacle does not a lover make, and a lit screen does not a useful, enjoyable computer make.

If a few hundred bucks here and there is determinative to you, save the money (and spend it on anti-virus software and time invested in tech support run-arounds). As I've said, and never heard refuted, all the converts go in one direction. That speaks volumes.

For me, there's no reason to need OSX. There's nothing it can do that I can't do on another operating system. Yes, I know it's sleek and easy to use. That's not worth a $1000 premium to me. If you've got that much extra money to throw at a computer, and really think it's worth it, I'm not stopping you. I know plenty of folks who love their Macs for very good reasons. I'm not one of them though, and Macs aren't for everyone. And to say all the converts go in one direction is pretty narrow minded. It's simply wishful thinking. I know plenty of others who tried Macs, decided it wasn't for them and walked away. I also know people who started out using Macs and didn't know Computer Gaming existed until they left for the other side. Just don't make blanket statements like that that can't be proved.

 

[ohbw]

Luckily there's different computers that cater to each of us.


I'll have to respecfully disagree with your disagreement. I really don't see the distinction between closed and stable. Although a "closed device" might not be stable, any device that's stable because it's a closed platform is still just a closed platform. And I really have no idea what you're getting at with the Goth girl thing.

Luckily, yes.

I didn't say Goth girl. Secure and stable means any wingnut with a computer, a modem, time, and bad intentions can't get in to wreak havoc, as they can and do day in and day out in Winworld. It doesn't mean the computer is a Pong game. It means it works, all the frigging time, and does all the things we want it to do really elegantly, without requiring that we program in four languages, have seven firewalls erected, or any of the other nonsense that Winfolks tolerate -- and, bizarrely, celebrate.

Appr?ciez vos ch?vres, guys. I have a French woman waiting to go to lunch. She only speaks three languages, has two breasts, and loves me absolutely. Somehow I'm just not missing a more resplendent udder and the instantaneous translations into Urdu.

 

[surur]

Hate to disturb this love-in but the Audi chipping argument is just stupid. Its more like Audi is stopping you from using any fuel except the ones purchased from BP, as thats quality approved, by designed a special nozzle shape that will only fit in there. They also make it impossible to change the radio station, as anything less than classical music would ruin the image of the car. Also you are not allowed to drive on dirt roads with the car, as an Audi should never be allowed to get dirty.

Thats what the iPhone is like.

Surur

 

[CountBuggula]

Luckily, yes.

I didn't say Goth girl. Secure and stable means any wingnut with a computer, a modem, time, and bad intentions can't get in to wreak havoc, as they can and do day in and day out in Winworld. It doesn't mean the computer is a Pong game. It means it works, all the frigging time, and does all the things we want it to do really elegantly, without requiring that we program in four languages, have seven firewalls erected, or any of the other nonsense that Winfolks tolerate -- and, bizarrely, celebrate.

Look, you're still just rewording exactly what a Closed Platform is. We've been over this. Oh, and sorry, I meant goth teen. Way to stereotype by the way. And if you really think that a Mac can't be hacked you're fooling yourself. We've also already seen how much the iPhone crashes, and you're obviously grossly exaggerating the difficulties in using Windows. I'm not a big fan of Windows or Microsoft, but it does not "requiring that we program in four languages, have seven firewalls erected". That kind of language actually makes me wonder if you've actually used a Windows machine in the last 5 years, because what you say isn't true. And if it wasn't supposed to be you shouldn't have said it.

Appr?ciez vos ch?vres, guys. I have a French woman waiting to go to lunch. She only speaks three languages, has two breasts, and loves me absolutely. Somehow I'm just not missing a more resplendent udder and the instantaneous translations into Urdu.

It's really sad that you've had to resort back to such tasteless analogies and logical fallacies. First sign of a losing argument is resorting to insults.