1. CountBuggula's Avatar
    Sigh. I can't, at least for the moment, let stuff like this go by. My Macbook Pro at $2K doesn't look overpriced to me. I've never had an OSX crash, or heard of one. That's in over six years of using the OS every single day, all day. I use to have six Win crashes in a day. I've also never spent more than about three minutes waiting for tech support. Is the premium I paid over a Dell/Win catastrof*ck worth it? You betcha.

    My Audi cost more than a Cavalier, too. Was it overpriced? Not to me. It's a much mo' bettah machine.
    DoubleSigh. Again, it's all about perceived value. By my standards a $2k Macbook Pro is seriously overpriced, but it's because each of us as individuals put different values on different things. I can go and buy a $500 laptop and install Ubuntu Linux on it and have the exact same No-Crashin' experience you've got on your Mac. I also value the ability to run all the software that isn't available on a Mac more than you do. Granted you can use other OS's now with BootCamp but then you're just paying twice as much to do what I can do with a cheaper laptop anyways.

    Anyways, the point is that there are those of us who put different amounts of weight on the value of this or that feature. I can deal with some occasional crashes on my Desktop computer at home to have a cheap, powerful gaming rig because of where I personally place the value. You don't want or need that capability, and to you having a machine that never crashes (and that you don't have to set up yourself - see previous comment about Linux) is more valuable so you're willing to shell out an awful lot of extra dough for it. That's fine. We're just different people with different ideas of what's important in a computer. Luckily there's different computers that cater to each of us.

    I respectfully disagree. Stable, accessible, and impervious to assault mean a whole lot more than "closed". They mean a machine that works beautifully and reliably and without any availability to hijacking by a 17 year old goth in Germany.
    I'll have to respecfully disagree with your disagreement. I really don't see the distinction between closed and stable. Although a "closed device" might not be stable, any device that's stable because it's a closed platform is still just a closed platform. And I really have no idea what you're getting at with the Goth girl thing.
    07-02-2007 12:56 PM
  2. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    I can go and buy a $500 laptop and install Ubuntu Linux on it and have the exact same No-Crashin' experience you've got on your Mac.
    I'm a big linux fan, though i run Fedora on my linux boxes at home, but to compare Linux to OS X isnt really fair. Sure, neither will crash all that often, but OS X offers a far better user experience, far better interface, and a more user friendly OS than any Linux flavor IMHO.

    I also value the ability to run all the software that isn't available on a Mac more than you do. Granted you can use other OS's now with BootCamp but then you're just paying twice as much to do what I can do with a cheaper laptop anyways.
    Huh? With bootcamp, parallels or VMware Mac owners can load any Linux OS they want, install Wine and run everything you can plus much more.
    07-02-2007 01:02 PM
  3. CountBuggula's Avatar
    I'm a big linux fan, though i run Fedora on my linux boxes at home, but to compare Linux to OS X isnt really fair. Sure, neither will crash all that often, but OS X offers a far better user experience, far better interface, and a more user friendly OS than any Linux flavor IMHO.
    Have you tried Ubuntu lately?

    Huh? With bootcamp, parallels or VMware Mac owners can load any Linux OS they want, install Wine and run everything you can plus much more.
    Did you miss the part where I already mentioned that? But why would I pay twice the price just to run the same OS's I could run on a cheaper computer?
    07-02-2007 01:13 PM
  4. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Have you tried Ubuntu lately?
    Havent installed it, but i have played with it briefly. i hear good things, but i'm happy with Fedora or my linux flavor.

    Did you miss the part where I already mentioned that? But why would I pay twice the price just to run the same OS's I could run on a cheaper computer?
    But you cant run OS X on that machine. That's Apple's advantage, I can run OS X, Winblows, and any flavor of Linux all on the same machine and take advantage of all the available software. Or, as you suggested, forget windows and just stick to OS X and Linux w/ Wine.

    Don't get me wrong, i understand that not everyone wants or needs OS X and if thats the case then so be it, it wouldnt make any sense for those people to buy a Mac. But saying that a Ubuntu install is basically the same as OS X is far from the truth.
    07-02-2007 01:19 PM
  5. ohbw's Avatar
    ...why would I pay twice the price just to run the same OS's I could run on a cheaper computer?
    Running Linux and running OSX aren't the same thing. You're comparing goats and beautiful French women again, guys. A receptacle does not a lover make, and a lit screen does not a useful, enjoyable computer make.

    If a few hundred bucks here and there is determinative to you, save the money (and spend it on anti-virus software and time invested in tech support run-arounds). As I've said, and never heard refuted, all the converts go in one direction. That speaks volumes.
    07-02-2007 01:20 PM
  6. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    As I've said, and never heard refuted, all the converts go in one direction. That speaks volumes.
    True, but not all those who run linux or windows and who have tried OS X have switched either.
    07-02-2007 01:24 PM
  7. CountBuggula's Avatar
    Running Linux and running OSX aren't the same thing. You're comparing goats and beautiful French women again, guys. A receptacle does not a lover make, and a lit screen does not a useful, enjoyable computer make.

    If a few hundred bucks here and there is determinative to you, save the money (and spend it on anti-virus software and time invested in tech support run-arounds). As I've said, and never heard refuted, all the converts go in one direction. That speaks volumes.
    For me, there's no reason to need OSX. There's nothing it can do that I can't do on another operating system. Yes, I know it's sleek and easy to use. That's not worth a $1000 premium to me. If you've got that much extra money to throw at a computer, and really think it's worth it, I'm not stopping you. I know plenty of folks who love their Macs for very good reasons. I'm not one of them though, and Macs aren't for everyone. And to say all the converts go in one direction is pretty narrow minded. It's simply wishful thinking. I know plenty of others who tried Macs, decided it wasn't for them and walked away. I also know people who started out using Macs and didn't know Computer Gaming existed until they left for the other side. Just don't make blanket statements like that that can't be proved.
    07-02-2007 01:29 PM
  8. ohbw's Avatar
    Luckily there's different computers that cater to each of us.


    I'll have to respecfully disagree with your disagreement. I really don't see the distinction between closed and stable. Although a "closed device" might not be stable, any device that's stable because it's a closed platform is still just a closed platform. And I really have no idea what you're getting at with the Goth girl thing.
    Luckily, yes.

    I didn't say Goth girl. Secure and stable means any wingnut with a computer, a modem, time, and bad intentions can't get in to wreak havoc, as they can and do day in and day out in Winworld. It doesn't mean the computer is a Pong game. It means it works, all the frigging time, and does all the things we want it to do really elegantly, without requiring that we program in four languages, have seven firewalls erected, or any of the other nonsense that Winfolks tolerate -- and, bizarrely, celebrate.

    Apprciez vos chvres, guys. I have a French woman waiting to go to lunch. She only speaks three languages, has two breasts, and loves me absolutely. Somehow I'm just not missing a more resplendent udder and the instantaneous translations into Urdu.
    07-02-2007 01:35 PM
  9. surur's Avatar
    Hate to disturb this love-in but the Audi chipping argument is just stupid. Its more like Audi is stopping you from using any fuel except the ones purchased from BP, as thats quality approved, by designed a special nozzle shape that will only fit in there. They also make it impossible to change the radio station, as anything less than classical music would ruin the image of the car. Also you are not allowed to drive on dirt roads with the car, as an Audi should never be allowed to get dirty.

    Thats what the iPhone is like.

    Surur
    07-02-2007 02:06 PM
  10. CountBuggula's Avatar
    Luckily, yes.

    I didn't say Goth girl. Secure and stable means any wingnut with a computer, a modem, time, and bad intentions can't get in to wreak havoc, as they can and do day in and day out in Winworld. It doesn't mean the computer is a Pong game. It means it works, all the frigging time, and does all the things we want it to do really elegantly, without requiring that we program in four languages, have seven firewalls erected, or any of the other nonsense that Winfolks tolerate -- and, bizarrely, celebrate.
    Look, you're still just rewording exactly what a Closed Platform is. We've been over this. Oh, and sorry, I meant goth teen. Way to stereotype by the way. And if you really think that a Mac can't be hacked you're fooling yourself. We've also already seen how much the iPhone crashes, and you're obviously grossly exaggerating the difficulties in using Windows. I'm not a big fan of Windows or Microsoft, but it does not "requiring that we program in four languages, have seven firewalls erected". That kind of language actually makes me wonder if you've actually used a Windows machine in the last 5 years, because what you say isn't true. And if it wasn't supposed to be you shouldn't have said it.

    Apprciez vos chvres, guys. I have a French woman waiting to go to lunch. She only speaks three languages, has two breasts, and loves me absolutely. Somehow I'm just not missing a more resplendent udder and the instantaneous translations into Urdu.
    It's really sad that you've had to resort back to such tasteless analogies and logical fallacies. First sign of a losing argument is resorting to insults.
    07-02-2007 02:13 PM
  11. dbpaddler's Avatar
    Personally....I'd never buy an iPhone or an iPod. I have bought iPods for others because I know they need the sheer simplicity of it over other features. I've used Macs and with them finally using multi button mice, they're pretty good. Could never stand that single button all the way back to my Mac Plus in college.

    I could care less about bashing the iPhone and praising anything else. It has its good points and its bad points. Is it revolutionary? I'll say it is to the point where it just may kick the other manufacturers in the *** which I think is sorely needed seeing all the crap that is out there in the market. I like some of the nice features it has and would like to see them incorporated in other smartphones. I think if they keep it crippled, other companies will have a chance to catch up really quick and only improve on products that are already better than the iPhone in some ways. This industry is not the DAP industry, and they will not have the lions share of the market to the point where they almost dictate it or drive it.
    07-02-2007 03:32 PM
  12. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    I think many people are trying to compare the iPhone to a smartphone which isn't fair. The iPhone isn't a smartphone and it isn't meant to be.
    07-02-2007 04:00 PM
  13. braj's Avatar
    I think many people are trying to compare the iPhone to a smartphone which isn't fair. The iPhone isn't a smartphone and it isn't meant to be.
    The thing is it is a travesty really: imagine what an awesome device the iPhone could be if you could extend the functionality with 3rd party apps? It just seems really neutered to me
    07-02-2007 04:33 PM
  14. dbpaddler's Avatar
    the iPod is crippled also. It's the way they do things. So many features and codec support that can be found on other devices. The philosophy carries over.

    And even though it's not considered a smartphone, it does have quite a few smartphone functions, but it lacks some of the basic smartphone functions we've all taken for granted with Palm and WM. So of course if you want to like the device you find it frustrtating. If you're coming from anything but a smartphone, you're probably fairly happy, well, unless you can't even connect the thing from the get go.

    The thing is it is a travesty really: imagine what an awesome device the iPhone could be if you could extend the functionality with 3rd party apps? It just seems really neutered to me
    07-02-2007 04:59 PM
  15. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    I think you're just looking at it from a "glass is half empty" point of view. Apple never intended to take on the smartphones, it's like looking at a harley and saying "it's so neutered, just think what it could have been had they made it a hummer." It's meant to be a phone, a phone that is better than any other phone, one that takes what most other phones already do and do it leaps and bounds better. This is exactly what it does, it just so happens that it does some of these things so much better than any phone that it also outdoes most smartphones.
    07-02-2007 05:42 PM
  16. CountBuggula's Avatar
    I think many people are trying to compare the iPhone to a smartphone which isn't fair. The iPhone isn't a smartphone and it isn't meant to be.
    Exactly. It's an extremely high priced Feature Phone and granted those features are darn purdy but plenty of us are still looking for a good smartphone. I wouldn't mind some of those innovative UI features creeping into the smartphone market too, now that they've set the bar. But those of us who still need a smartphone will be looking elsewhere for awhile.
    07-02-2007 05:50 PM
  17. silverado's Avatar
    [...]
    I've got my calendar, email, contacts, and notes, just as I did on my Treos.
    How did you get the notes in there? My notes weren't imported from Outlook.

    Thanks.
    07-02-2007 05:53 PM
  18. MacUser's Avatar
    I respectfully disagree. Stable, accessible, and impervious to assault mean a whole lot more than "closed". They mean a machine that works beautifully and reliably and without any availability to hijacking by a 17 year old goth in Germany.

    In an analagous way, I'm totally okay with Audi having some say about how the integrity of the A8 they designed and built is maintained over time. It works so magnificently, so much better than any other car I see on the market for so many meaningful real-world purposes -- performance, safety, UI(!), aesthetics -- that I (quite reasonably, I think) am willing to forego another 150 short term horsepower. Yeah, I know what wicked automotive performance is about, I've had 400 hp in a 1900 lb car. And I've had the headache of staying on top of it all the time. Fun? Lots. But over time? Gimme 360 hp, 4WD, the safest crash-worthiness in the industry, the most beautiful cabin this side of a Bentley.
    Very, very true.
    07-02-2007 08:18 PM
  19. ohbw's Avatar
    How did you get the notes in there? My notes weren't imported from Outlook.

    Thanks.
    I'm just using the Notes program that comes on the iPhone. I create a new Note for whatever -- Books to Buy, Projects, Restaurants in SF, Crucial Numbers (mileage programs, disguised passwords, etc). It's not really a business app for me, just odds and ends I'd forget otherwise.

    I don't know what notes in Outlook are. Never used it. I'm guessing something more elaborate.
    07-02-2007 10:56 PM
  20. ohbw's Avatar
    And even though it's not considered a smartphone, it does have quite a few smartphone functions, but it lacks some of the basic smartphone functions we've all taken for granted with Palm and WM. So of course if you want to like the device you find it frustrtating. If you're coming from anything but a smartphone, you're probably fairly happy, well, unless you can't even connect the thing from the get go.
    I've been using Palm Treos for 7 years! And the iPhone is doing everything I want it to do. It wasn't designed to be in the pocket of a pharmaceutical salesman, sure. But it's a damn smart phone.
    07-02-2007 10:59 PM
  21. MacUser's Avatar
    Well today in an ATT store, I observed a few big disappointments. Three people came in and wanted to walk out with an iPhone and they were sold out. I gave one of them the phone number for the closest Apple store and they were sold out as well. I was nice enough to show them mine and give them a quick review...

    They were still very disappointed they couldn't get one. How's that rate?
    07-02-2007 11:02 PM
  22. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    Great review of the iPhone from Engadget at this link. The conclusions were:
    It's easy to see the device is extraordinarily simple to use for such a full-featured phone and media player. Apple makes creating the spartan, simplified UI look oh so easy -- but we know it's not, and the devil's always in the details when it comes to portables. To date no one's made a phone that does so much with so little, and despite the numerous foibles of the iPhone's gesture-based touchscreen interface, the learning curve is surprisingly low. It's totally clear that with the iPhone, Apple raised the bar not only for the cellphone, but for portable media players and multifunction convergence devices in general.

    But getting things done with the iPhone isn't easy, and anyone looking for a productivity device will probably need to look on. Its browser falls pretty short of the "internet in your pocket" claims Apple's made, and even though it's still easily the most advanced mobile browser on the market, its constant crashing doesn't exactly seal the deal. The iPhone's Mail app -- from its myriad missing features to its un-integrated POP mail experience to its obsolete method of accessing your Gmail -- makes email on the iPhone a huge chore at best.

    For us, the most interesting thing about the iPhone is its genesis and position in the market. Apple somehow managed to convince one of the most conservative wireless carriers in the world, AT&T (then Cingular), not only to buy into its device sight-unseen, but to readjust its whole philosophy of how a device and carrier should work together (as evidenced by the radically modernized and personalized activation process). Only a few days after launch it's easy to see June 29th as a watershed moment that crystalized the fact that consumers will pay more for a device that does more -- and treats them like a human being, not a cellphone engineer. Imagine that.

    But is the iPhone worth the two year contract with the oft-maligned AT&T and its steep price of admission? Hopefully we gave you enough information about the iPhone's every detail to make an informed decision -- despite the iPhone's many shortcomings, we suspect the answer for countless consumers will be a resounding yes.
    (Underlining added for emphasis) All-in-all a balanced review. Convinced me that for my uses, the iPhone is not quite ready, but for a large number of folks, it is a good fit.
    07-03-2007 08:12 AM
  23. ohbw's Avatar
    I'm 3-1/2 days into my iPhone. I've been power-using the browser and haven't crashed it (or any app) once. I've gotten instant and reliable push email from two different sources since I first synced the phone. And I can't remember ever buying a new Treo without being asked to sign on for two years.

    My one problem in 3-1/2 days? I couldn't re-record my voicemail greeting when I wanted to. Called Apple, got a tech in 3 minutes (on Saturday evening, while they were in the middle of selling a half million phones!), got an answer in 30 seconds. Turned phone off. Turned phone back on. End of problem.

    Would I change a few things? Yeah. Will Apple change a few things? Of course. (They just won't spend months declaring that there IS no problem, as Palm did with my 680).

    Use the device, and find out for yourself. I think it's a quantum leap.
    07-03-2007 08:24 AM
  24. InfiniteWill#IM's Avatar
    I've been using Palm Treos for 7 years! And the iPhone is doing everything I want it to do. It wasn't designed to be in the pocket of a pharmaceutical salesman, sure. But it's a damn smart phone.
    That's pretty amazing since the first Treo, the Treo 180 was announced in October '01 and released in Feb '02, five (and a half) years ago.
    07-03-2007 08:58 AM
  25. ohbw's Avatar
    That's pretty amazing since the first Treo, the Treo 180 was announced in October '01 and released in Feb '02, five (and a half) years ago.
    My brain got scrambled from trying to keep track of all the software downloads, battery problems, and round-robin tech support calls to Palm and the 37 software vendors it took to keep my Treos functioning. Mea culpa.
    07-03-2007 09:43 AM
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