1. CountBuggula's Avatar
    Right. And that's why people who really use computers hard and often and in complex ways -- designers and film people and musicians and photographers -- are Mac folks.

    What's stupid is ignoring the facts, lad. Do you know how much Walt Mossberg is paid by the Wall Street Journal to review products like this for a very sophisticated audience? Do you know how much Pogue is paid by the NY Times? Levy by Newsweek, or Baig by USA Today? Are you actually so deluded that you believe that they're stupider than you are? That your need to wirelessly download a Britney video while IMing 37 friends at once is more significant than having a stable, user friendly, user accessible tool to do the things that MOST people do MOST of the time?

    Of course you are. But other people reading your posts don't think, "Genius, by damn! Give me a donkey so I can be like Surur!" They think, "Gaseous nitwit, he belongs on a donkey."

    Want an alternate bet? Palm in bankruptcy, acquired for its tax value as a massive loss, or non-existent in five years. Afraid of that one, too? How about relative market share of OSX and Windows in five years? Find one you like, and put your money where your mouth is.
    I love how people keep putting words in Surur's mouth. Just because the masses will buy a product doesn't make it good, it just means the company has a fabulous marketing program. Why do people buy iPods when they cost twice as much as the other MP3 players out there (many of which have more functionality)? It's because the iPod has become culturally ingrained as a status symbol. Why do customers and businesses still buy Intel vs AMD when their chips are more expensive? It's all marketing.

    Oh, and the "people who really use computers hard and often and in complex ways" use Unix at work and Linux at home.
    07-02-2007 01:37 AM
  2. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    In another thread, there was link to Apple Insider saying that Apple will add more apps of it's own, like the ones that will help it compete with true smartphones. I think that will help.

    Apple got smart and mainstreamed some of it's iPods' prices for the last batch. 30GB for $250 is not so bad. $150 for 2GB is better than the $200 they wanted for the 1st gen. Nano, although most 2GB players are still a little less. They listen to the public, sometimes. At least more than Palm.
    07-02-2007 04:24 AM
  3. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    What's stupid is ignoring the facts, lad. Do you know how much Walt Mossberg is paid by the Wall Street Journal to review products like this for a very sophisticated audience? Do you know how much Pogue is paid by the NY Times? Levy by Newsweek, or Baig by USA Today? Are you actually so deluded that you believe that they're stupider than you are? That your need to wirelessly download a Britney video while IMing 37 friends at once is more significant than having a stable, user friendly, user accessible tool to do the things that MOST people do MOST of the time?
    By your logic, Microsoft's operating systems are an order of magnitude better than Apple's operating systems - actually closer to 2 orders of magnitude better - based solely on your "MOST people, MOST of the time" measure. It would be stupid to ignore that fact wouldn't it?

    Oh, and the "people who really use computers hard and often and in complex ways" use Unix at work and Linux at home.
    So true, although to be fair, OS X is a close approximation of Linux/Unix under all that pretty makeup.
    07-02-2007 04:27 AM
  4. Fafafoooey's Avatar

    Oh, and the "people who really use computers hard and often and in complex ways" use Unix at work and Linux at home.
    Well, maybe you do, but actually, people that are that deep into computers actually have more than one machine, and more than likely use more than 1 OS.

    My Co-worker is a developer, and I am a systems engineer, and we use Windows, Mac OSX, Solaris, and Linux at home, so that is 4 machines minimum. There is no way that you can solely use Linux at home. There is just not enough software out there for Linux. But at least if you have a choice, then you can have all your needs covered.

    07-02-2007 04:33 AM
  5. Fafafoooey's Avatar
    I try not to post in the iPhone forums, but this part is just a pure lie. The iPhone is unstable out of the box. See my mega-thread.

    Surur
    Do you have one? So, to you, what is a stable device, out of the box? You can't say a Palm Treo. Blackberrys are stable. Other smartphones? Any Windows mobile device, you have to be kidding.
    07-02-2007 04:35 AM
  6. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    My Blackjack holds up fine.
    07-02-2007 04:41 AM
  7. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    My Blackjack holds up fine.
    So does my Dash.
    07-02-2007 04:45 AM
  8. oalvarez's Avatar
    Why do people buy iPods when they cost twice as much as the other MP3 players out there (many of which have more functionality)?
    that's an easy one: they look good, are fun, and more importantly, the entire process is very easy to use. some consumers like its convenience, simplicity, and can afford the real thing and not some substitute product. insert iPhone here.
    07-02-2007 08:12 AM
  9. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    I wish i could add 3rd party apps, but im not convinced that wont happen down the road. I would really like a password manager and a GPS navigation solution. The recessed headphone jack is a PITA, but i'll buy Belkins adapter to fix that.

    I've managed to make Safari crash once, but the iPhone is rock solid. Certainly the most stable mobile OS/apps combination i've ever used. If anyone is experiencing issues they should just use iTunes to restore the phone to factory defaults and then let iTunes restore all your settings.
    07-02-2007 08:13 AM
  10. ohbw's Avatar
    So does my Dash.
    And so does my iPhone, so far. I've spent weeks installing software and debugging every Treo I've ever had -- the battery issues alone on the 680 took dozens of hours of fiddling, reading, posting, hoping, praying. I'm not doing that right now. That's different.

    The comment about operating systems ignores two important factors: (1) the outrageous and well-documented anti-competitive behavior of MS, which has made Windows predominant in a marketplace full of (2) sheep, who get fed one OS, learn how to use it, and are terrified to venture out and try something different. Like a lot of people here.

    These conversations never end. There's always a developer who says no human can function without 17 computers and working knowledge of 11 operating systems, or someone who insists that a pda/phone should run Photoshop. My simple point is this: I'm 48. I've been using computers for almost 30 years for the things most folks use computers for -- some professional, some personal. That part of my life got a whole lot sweeter when I moved to Mac. I don't design spacecraft or run the Pentagon with my computer or phone, and I don't want to. I run my own website and mess around with music and images a lot and communicate with the world -- pretty average, I think. And all of those things are very much easier and more satisfying to do on a Mac. I'm having the same kind of experience with my iPhone: it just works, and is eminently approachable, to a degree no Treo ever was. And I repeat: I had four Treos, and thought they were the best thing going. Now they aren't, and I'm not ashamed to recognize it.

    I'll put it this way, and let the nitpicking begin: I've met hundreds of people who switched, like me, and say, as I do, "I wouldn't go back at gunpoint." I've never met one person who abandoned the Mac for the FUBAR logic and security joys of Windows.

    And anyone who doesn't realize that Apple just released the prototype for the cell phone of the future -- a phone/pda that advances the type substantially in a dozen different, important ways -- is stoopit, or hasn't had an iPhone in his hand. Yeah, it's not perfect, EDGE is slow. But WiFi is everywhere, and I also own a computer. I don't want to research a dissertation from my phone. It's not perfect. It's just way better. Deal with it.
    07-02-2007 09:06 AM
  11. dstrauss#IM's Avatar
    Since I'm your elder Brian, listen up...

    You are right. If the iPhone does what you need, the way you need it, then no amount of dstrauss/surur/olavarez/archie/larsen/WHOMEVER makes any difference at all. At the same time, Phone DIva and Kupe are also right...our Blackjacks/Dashes hold up fine as well. Not as flashy, but even more goodies under the hood.

    Enjoy your iPhone secure in the knowledge that you are right...for you.
    07-02-2007 09:40 AM
  12. ohbw's Avatar
    Since I'm your elder Brian, listen up...

    You are right. If the iPhone does what you need, the way you need it, then no amount of dstrauss/surur/olavarez/archie/larsen/WHOMEVER makes any difference at all. At the same time, Phone DIva and Kupe are also right...our Blackjacks/Dashes hold up fine as well. Not as flashy, but even more goodies under the hood.

    Enjoy your iPhone secure in the knowledge that you are right...for you.
    Lord Silverback ,

    I humbly apologize for getting exercised and accept what you say. But the dialogue is uninformed and reactionary on one side, isn't it? I know things are possible with other devices, I've used them for a long time. I also know that a touch screen with access to every app on one (completely visible at once) screen / visual voice mail / sexy scrolling / sleek package / stable integrated OS / full screen browser / ginormous and vivid display under glass / etc. are significant and desirable steps forward -- sort of like a GUI, or an OS that is stable and functional and impervious to assaults from without.

    It's almost as if a group of young men born in the hills, shepherds, came down from those hills and said as one, "Women?! Why would we need these rosy pink women of yours?! Our sheep are perfectly serviceable, and look, they have wool onto which a man can grab! There can be no desirable use for these women of yours!"
    07-02-2007 10:18 AM
  13. CountBuggula's Avatar
    Well, maybe you do, but actually, people that are that deep into computers actually have more than one machine, and more than likely use more than 1 OS.

    My Co-worker is a developer, and I am a systems engineer, and we use Windows, Mac OSX, Solaris, and Linux at home, so that is 4 machines minimum. There is no way that you can solely use Linux at home. There is just not enough software out there for Linux. But at least if you have a choice, then you can have all your needs covered.

    True, to an extent. I used to go back and forth between Windows and Linux at home, but with the recent improvements in Wine there's little reason to use a Windows machine anymore. I can't think of anything I need in Windows that I can't either run in Wine or which has a Linux equivalent (Paint.net comes to mind here - there's some great free image editing software for Linux that replaces that).

    Um...sorry I didn't mean to turn this into a Linux-evangelical discussion. Back to your regularly scheduled topic...
    07-02-2007 10:33 AM
  14. CountBuggula's Avatar
    Lord Silverback ,

    I humbly apologize for getting exercised and accept what you say. But the dialogue is uninformed and reactionary on one side, isn't it? I know things are possible with other devices, I've used them for a long time. I also know that a touch screen with access to every app on one (completely visible at once) screen / visual voice mail / sexy scrolling / sleek package / stable integrated OS / full screen browser / ginormous and vivid display under glass / etc. are significant and desirable steps forward -- sort of like a GUI, or an OS that is stable and functional and impervious to assaults from without.

    It's almost as if a group of young men born in the hills, shepherds, came down from those hills and said as one, "Women?! Why would we need these rosy pink women of yours?! Our sheep are perfectly serviceable, and look, they have wool onto which a man can grab! There can be no desirable use for these women of yours!"
    Umm...that's a pretty poor analogy IMO. All we're (some of us) are trying to say is that there's absolutely nothing revolutionary in the iPhone except for the pretty UI. Sure, the UI is good looking. It feels nice. We're not disputing that. The only difference between you and I is how much weight we put on that particular feature. To some, an awesome pretty UI makes not having an open platform worth it. There's others of us who just need (or want) to do more with a device. That's what convergence is all about. Because of my Treo, I don't have to carry around a PDA, phone, and Game Boy because one device can fill all of those needs. I'm not saying the Treo's perfect, far from it. But for me, and plenty of other users out there, the iPhone doesn't fit the bill.
    07-02-2007 10:42 AM
  15. dstrauss#IM's Avatar
    Umm...that's a pretty poor analogy IMO. All we're (some of us) are trying to say is that there's absolutely nothing revolutionary in the iPhone except for the pretty UI. Sure, the UI is good looking. It feels nice. We're not disputing that. The only difference between you and I is how much weight we put on that particular feature. To some, an awesome pretty UI makes not having an open platform worth it. There's others of us who just need (or want) to do more with a device. That's what convergence is all about. Because of my Treo, I don't have to carry around a PDA, phone, and Game Boy because one device can fill all of those needs. I'm not saying the Treo's perfect, far from it. But for me, and plenty of other users out there, the iPhone doesn't fit the bill.
    Now be fair, there is a lot more to it than just GUI. Visual voicemail looks like a good start, and if the phone actually works as demo'd, I like the phone answering and conferencing features - noi question about what you're doing and when. I also want to personally thank Steverino for giving AT&T a kick in the shorts by upping EDGE performance. YES, HSDPA is the only real way to go, but having suffered with 55-80k performance on my Blackjack since November (we are not blessed with 3G here), the new 145-180k we've seen since Friday is a godsend. And with any luck, when Stevie releases the 3G version for Xmas, I'll finally GET 3G in the backwater.
    07-02-2007 10:55 AM
  16. ohbw's Avatar
    Umm...that's a pretty poor analogy IMO.
    I meant to be humorous, Count! (While, of course, suggesting that you should all take a close look at the merits of pink, rosy women).

    And we can agree that no device is perfect for everyone. I don't game or IM or do a host of other things, so yes, I weight the approachability and the stability of the device above having every possible function or being able to download an encyclopedia in 22 seconds.

    There's a lot more that's innovative in the iPhone than prettiness, be real.

    I suspect the iPhone will meet you guys halfway in time. As I said in another post, it doesn't make any more sense for Apple to crack a secure platform wide open to just any old developer than it does for Audi to continue to warranty my car if I've chipped it with some insane hot rodder's engine management program that's likely to send valves clattering into pistons in short order. There are competing considerations at work, and Apple balances them differently than some others. For a lot of us, what we gain from that is well worth what we give up. I like having machines that never crash, and can't be infected, and that are hugely friendly to use.

    Does Steve Jobs stay up at night thinking of ways to make people read about French cheeses on their iPhones rather than playing Grand Theft Auto? I don't think so. After all, who gave us the wide spectrum of downloadable music (that honors an artist's copyright, i.e., ability to eat)?
    07-02-2007 11:01 AM
  17. ohbw's Avatar
    "As handsets look more like PCs, software gets more important.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/02/te...cellphone.html
    07-02-2007 11:06 AM
  18. CountBuggula's Avatar
    Now be fair, there is a lot more to it than just GUI. Visual voicemail looks like a good start, and if the phone actually works as demo'd, I like the phone answering and conferencing features - noi question about what you're doing and when.
    Um...what part of that isn't User Interface improvements? Yes, it's got a pretty GUI. Yes, the UI is slick. But all the things that people like about the iPhone have to do with those things.

    I also want to personally thank Steverino for giving AT&T a kick in the shorts by upping EDGE performance. YES, HSDPA is the only real way to go, but having suffered with 55-80k performance on my Blackjack since November (we are not blessed with 3G here), the new 145-180k we've seen since Friday is a godsend. And with any luck, when Stevie releases the 3G version for Xmas, I'll finally GET 3G in the backwater.
    It's better than vanilla EDGE, but it's still no 3G or EVDO.
    07-02-2007 11:16 AM
  19. CountBuggula's Avatar
    I meant to be humorous, Count! (While, of course, suggesting that you should all take a close look at the merits of pink, rosy women).
    Ok, yeah I gotcha. Didn't mean to be a stickler.

    And we can agree that no device is perfect for everyone. I don't game or IM or do a host of other things, so yes, I weight the approachability and the stability of the device above having every possible function or being able to download an encyclopedia in 22 seconds.

    There's a lot more that's innovative in the iPhone than prettiness, be real.

    I suspect the iPhone will meet you guys halfway in time. As I said in another post, it doesn't make any more sense for Apple to crack a secure platform wide open to just any old developer than it does for Audi to continue to warranty my car if I've chipped it with some insane hot rodder's engine management program that's likely to send valves clattering into pistons in short order. There are competing considerations at work, and Apple balances them differently than some others. For a lot of us, what we gain from that is well worth what we give up. I like having machines that never crash, and can't be infected, and that are hugely friendly to use.
    You're just repeating what I said, only you don't know it. What's innovative and secure to you is just a closed platform to me. It's the same thing, we just call it different names. And to you, having that pretty GUI and slick UI is worth being locked down to what functionality you get out of the box (and what Apple decides to spoon feed you). And that's fine, as long as you're happy with it. Like I said, it's just how much weight we choose to place on the value of having an open versus closed system and having that great Apple UI.
    07-02-2007 11:39 AM
  20. ohbw's Avatar
    Um...what part of that isn't User Interface improvements? Yes, it's got a pretty GUI. Yes, the UI is slick. But all the things that people like about the iPhone have to do with those things.



    It's better than vanilla EDGE, but it's still no 3G or EVDO.
    Okay, visual voicemail is in some sense a user interface. Whatever you call it, it's instantly and appreciably better SOFTWARE, whatever other name we give it, than having to aurally page through voicemails. What does UI mean? It means, effectively, that very wide territory where the man meets and interacts with the machine. That territory that Apple does 3x as good as anyone else.

    They didn't go 3G for real and valid and balanced reasons. They will when the chip utility and breadth of the 3G network are viable. Why all the fuss about the fact that this is going to come in six months or a year? Who buys a device like this hoping to still be using it in five years? When a 3G iPhone appears, I'll buy it, and sell my current iPhone for a tidy sum. I've sold three Mac laptops in the last year, all 1-2 years old, for almost what I paid for them. There will be plenty of folks happy to buy an 8GB EDGE iPhone for $425 in six months or a year when 3G iPhones appear, I'll wager.
    07-02-2007 11:43 AM
  21. ohbw's Avatar
    Ok, yeah I gotcha. Didn't mean to be a stickler.



    You're just repeating what I said, only you don't know it. What's innovative and secure to you is just a closed platform to me. It's the same thing, we just call it different names. And to you, having that pretty GUI and slick UI is worth being locked down to what functionality you get out of the box (and what Apple decides to spoon feed you). And that's fine, as long as you're happy with it. Like I said, it's just how much weight we choose to place on the value of having an open versus closed system and having that great Apple UI.
    I respectfully disagree. Stable, accessible, and impervious to assault mean a whole lot more than "closed". They mean a machine that works beautifully and reliably and without any availability to hijacking by a 17 year old goth in Germany.

    In an analagous way, I'm totally okay with Audi having some say about how the integrity of the A8 they designed and built is maintained over time. It works so magnificently, so much better than any other car I see on the market for so many meaningful real-world purposes -- performance, safety, UI(!), aesthetics -- that I (quite reasonably, I think) am willing to forego another 150 short term horsepower. Yeah, I know what wicked automotive performance is about, I've had 400 hp in a 1900 lb car. And I've had the headache of staying on top of it all the time. Fun? Lots. But over time? Gimme 360 hp, 4WD, the safest crash-worthiness in the industry, the most beautiful cabin this side of a Bentley.
    07-02-2007 11:54 AM
  22. bruckwine's Avatar
    that's an easy one: they look good, are fun, and more importantly, the entire process is very easy to use. some consumers like its convenience, simplicity, and can afford the real thing and not some substitute product. insert iPhone here.
    Matter of opinion..iPods are not that great to me..all i can do on one is play music (NO RADIO - why Apple why?). I have a 15GB iPod 3rd gen (eBayed it) and i find that i just don't use it any more (had to change the battery too but it was 2nd hand so no prob)..ever since I got a treo it's laid in the dust (but now the treo jacks' going bonkers so i may just get a 2GB nano or some other PMP like iAudio) ..I just use it as storage space to hold all my catalog (roughly 13 GB music and climbing)...worst part is the darned cheap iPod headphones that hurt my ears anyway (buds the call 'em)...finally the hard drive stopped spinning so I'm due to replace it and Im not sure i'm going back.

    Calling a better PMP a substitute is also rightly a matter of opinion...I think the new creative zen micros look better than shuffles , they're cheaper and they have LCD displays..I think I'll get one of those b4 a shuffle! Apple has always overpriced their stuff whether it's better or worse - it's part of how they make a profit. As SOME ppl always have the need to feel special they'll go and buy i simply for status.
    07-02-2007 12:03 PM
  23. ohbw's Avatar
    Apple has always overpriced their stuff whether it's better or worse - it's part of how they make a profit. As SOME ppl always have the need to feel special they'll go and buy i simply for status.
    Sigh. I can't, at least for the moment, let stuff like this go by. My Macbook Pro at $2K doesn't look overpriced to me. I've never had an OSX crash, or heard of one. That's in over six years of using the OS every single day, all day. I use to have six Win crashes in a day. I've also never spent more than about three minutes waiting for tech support. Is the premium I paid over a Dell/Win catastrof*ck worth it? You betcha.

    My Audi cost more than a Cavalier, too. Was it overpriced? Not to me. It's a much mo' bettah machine.
    07-02-2007 12:30 PM
  24. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Folks have been claiming Macs are overpriced for years, and it simply isnt true. Macs hold their resale value far better than standard PCs, they have a lower TCO in the long term and they stay usable for longer. My DP 1GHz G4 is like 5-6 years old and is still my main media machine. It's hooked directly into my entertainment center and easily drives my 1080p HDTV with its original graphics card. Not many 6 year old Windows based desktops are still as usable as this machine is.
    07-02-2007 12:39 PM
  25. ohbw's Avatar
    Exactamente. That an argument is tired, invalid, and patently false has never been an impediment to the Win community. See Gates's outburst a few months ago that OSX crashes every day. Right, and the sun explodes, consuming the Earth, every Tuesday and Friday.
    07-02-2007 12:47 PM
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