1. braj's Avatar
    I'm not sure about that. Many other smartphones have WIFI.

    Surur
    OK, then conspiracy theory time: Apple made sure to make the phone get online via EDGE as much as possible. But then they also do have the device try and get on WIFI first, so maybe they aren't trying to make it cost you data minutes (only while roaming, lets assume, since most have unlimited data). And the other things always being on (while I agree is limiting your options) are intended to give the richest browsing experience. I get your Points surur, but they aren't nearly as damning as you make them out to be IMO. I want more options myself, but most wouldn't care and maybe be bothered by the added options (scenario Apple is avoiding: 'Why doesn't my iPhone download the whole email? Why can't I display images in Safari?' answer: because the user is an ***** and doesn't remember they changed those settings). It isn't all black and white whether something is good or not but different for each individual. That's what makes the iPhone suck for some and perfect for others. Or make it suck sometimes for one task and brilliant for another. That's life.
    07-31-2007 02:52 PM
  2. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Requirements is what the device is supposed to have. According to wikipedia
    Try rereading my post and the one of yours i was quoting. You stated that all the stuff i said the iPhone does better than a WM was stuff you wanted, but that you had other requirements. I then said:

    How is this different than me requiring a big bright screen, a full browser, style, simplicity, a stable OS and everything else the iPhone has over WM devices and wanting open access to the file system, 3rd party apps, 3G? By your logic that makes my requirements higher. In fact your logic is that anything surur requires takes precedence over anyone elses priorities. I think i got your "simple equation" all figured out.
    My requirements are simply different than yours. Notice where i separate my requirements from my "wants" the same way you did. It's pretty obvious that at that point a WM device is below my requirements, but that an iPhone would meet them.
    07-31-2007 02:54 PM
  3. surur's Avatar
    OK, then conspiracy theory time: Apple made sure to make the phone get online via EDGE as much as possible. But then they also do have the device try and get on WIFI first, so maybe they aren't trying to make it cost you data minutes (only while roaming, lets assume, since most have unlimited data). And the other things always being on (while I agree is limiting your options) are intended to give the richest browsing experience. I get your Points surur, but they aren't nearly as damning as you make them out to be IMO. I want more options myself, but most wouldn't care and maybe be bothered by the added options (scenario Apple is avoiding: 'Why doesn't my iPhone download the whole email? Why can't I display images in Safari?' answer: because the user is an ***** and doesn't remember they changed those settings). It isn't all black and white whether something is good or not but different for each individual. That's what makes the iPhone suck for some and perfect for others. Or make it suck sometimes for one task and brilliant for another. That's life.
    Apple excels at designing for the clueless user (and enjoys fleecing them in the process).

    Surur
    07-31-2007 02:56 PM
  4. surur's Avatar
    Try rereading my post and the one of yours i was quoting. You stated that all the stuff i said the iPhone does better than a WM was stuff you wanted, but that you had other requirements. I then said:

    My requirements are simply different than yours. Notice where i separate my requirements from my "wants" the same way you did. It's pretty obvious that at that point a WM device is below my requirements, but that an iPhone would meet them.
    Sorry, in what way does no WM device have " a big bright screen, a full browser, style, simplicity, a stable OS .." ?

    When you say want you express a desire, I am expressing a requirement.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 02:59 PM
  5. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    It isn't all black and white whether something is good or not but different for each individual.
    Oh it's black and white for surur, he's right and anyone who likes their iPhone is a moron. He clearly is pained by the iPhone hype and the fact that the phone is a success. People bought them, people love them and they're getting great reviews. He's cemented in his position and unwilling to even consider that someone else may have different requirements for a phone than him, I mean most of us figured this out on page 2. Why do we come back? :brick:
    07-31-2007 03:02 PM
  6. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Sorry, in what way does no WM device have " a big bright screen, a full browser, style, simplicity, a stable OS .." ?
    In the way that WM is behind the iPhone in all of those.
    07-31-2007 03:03 PM
  7. braj's Avatar
    Apple excels at designing for the clueless user (and enjoys fleecing them in the process).

    Surur
    Some users are clueless, that's the reality. Or perhaps they don't have the time nor inclination to get as into their gadgets as we do? I'm sure there are brilliant doctors, lawyers etc. that definitely have a clue but no time to figure out how to get a video to play smoothly on a Treo. I want more in a device (3rd party support would give that to me on the iPhone btw), you want more (and have it with your WM devices) but that doesn't mean everyone does. For them it doesn't suck.
    07-31-2007 03:03 PM
  8. surur's Avatar
    Some users are clueless, that's the reality. Or perhaps they don't have the time nor inclination to get as into their gadgets as we do? I'm sure there are brilliant doctors, lawyers etc. that definitely have a clue but no time to figure out how to get a video to play smoothly on a Treo. I want more in a device (3rd party support would give that to me on the iPhone btw), you want more (and have it with your WM devices) but that doesn't mean everyone does. For them it doesn't suck.
    Cant argue with that. Hope they dont travel overseas with their iPhone however.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 03:05 PM
  9. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Cant argue with that. Hope they dont travel overseas with their iPhone however.

    Surur
    I will be and it shouldnt be an issue. International roaming from cingular/att is pretty cheap, especially in europe. When i was in China i could have picked up a local SIM for my 650, but Cingular's international roaming was cheaper. I use IMAP so im not worried about that, who in the world uses POP these days? I was just in Canada with the phone for about 5 days and the extra cost was minimal.
    07-31-2007 03:17 PM
  10. surur's Avatar
    I will be and it shouldnt be an issue. International roaming from cingular/att is pretty cheap, especially in europe. When i was in China i could have picked up a local SIM for my 650, but Cingular's international roaming was cheaper. I use IMAP so im not worried about that, who in the world uses POP these days? I was just in Canada with the phone for about 5 days and the extra cost was minimal.
    So you dont agree with this poster then.

    powerbook911
    macrumors 65816
    Join Date: Mar 2005

    I feel bad for the original poster. I looked into this, when I got my phone, and I did some math, and I knew overseas use would be almost impossible at those rates.

    I'd be scared to turn it on. ha-ha.

    I actually thought the fee was $0.015 per kb. So .005 is better than I thought.

    600 MB sure is a lot of use. However, even if someone used 100 MB that would be $500 if the above story is true, so even that is crazy, and I couldn't afford that.

    AT&T does need to offer an unlimited international plan like they do for blackberry.
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...=335874&page=2

    Surur
    07-31-2007 03:24 PM
  11. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    That isnt my experience, but im not going to say it didnt happen to them.
    07-31-2007 03:26 PM
  12. cmaier's Avatar
    POP email is only full download (not headers only?) Is that true? (I'm sure someone who is a heavy iPhone email user can correct...)
    Don't know about POP. On imap, it only loads attachments when you view the actual message. Sometimes it doesn't load the attachments until you click the particular attachment icon. I haven't studied it extensively to determine whether it makes that decision based on file size or what, but i've only seen it not download-on-message-view when the file was "large." (When it doesn't download it ahead of time, you get a little icon with an arrow pointing downward. Clicking on it results in the icon changing to the iphone equivalent of hour glass, with a progress counter like "1.4 of 1.8MB" that updates until it finishes.)

    I'm also not certain it always loads the full text of the message (when on imap). For large messages i've seen it do the "i'm busy" when i click on them, and had the message fill in a couple seconds later. Don't know if it's a rendering delay or a loading delay, but i suspect the latter.

    Update: it says "loading" when doing this, so presumably it's grabbing the message at that time, not merely rendering it.

    In short, it appears that it is downloading as little as possible until you ask for it, and deciding on its own, based on size, when to grab stuff automatically as opposed to through human interaction.

    POP may be different.
    07-31-2007 03:27 PM
  13. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Millions of people use POP...IMAP is not panacea for everything.
    07-31-2007 03:28 PM
  14. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Oh and you must have missed the last post in that thread where the OP says that ATT fixed the whole situation.

    Word travels fast over the internet...

    AT&T just called and agreed to waive all charges due to the "miscommunication." I think they have a customer for life now!
    ______________
    07-31-2007 03:30 PM
  15. braj's Avatar
    Millions of people use POP...IMAP is not panacea for everything.
    Yep, Gmail is POP-only right now, and that's my main personal mail account.
    07-31-2007 03:31 PM
  16. braj's Avatar
    AT&T does need to offer an unlimited international plan like they do for blackberry.
    That seems to be the solution for AT&T really.
    07-31-2007 03:32 PM
  17. cmaier's Avatar
    Millions of people use POP...IMAP is not panacea for everything.
    I just tried a quick experiment with POP, and it SEEMS to be behaving the same way. I can try more detailed experiments later.

    (Note: i, too, use gmail as my main email. I just forward it to an imap server :-)
    07-31-2007 03:34 PM
  18. surur's Avatar
    Oh and you must have missed the last post in that thread where the OP says that ATT fixed the whole situation.
    Wont help you though. If data is $5 per megabyte (which is about right for European rates) would it be very wise to use google maps?

    Surur
    07-31-2007 03:35 PM
  19. surur's Avatar
    When the honeymoon is over...

    - why iReturned.

    garsgadgets 07-31-2007 15:56

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I returned mine too. My reasons were pretty much the same as yours. Once playing with the screen wore off I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the $$$$. I still get separation anxiety when I see the commercial on tv. boo hoo

    ferniesp 07-31-2007 16:03

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Originally Posted by garsgadgets
    I returned mine too. My reasons were pretty much the same as yours. Once playing with the screen wore off I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the $$$$. I still get separation anxiety when I see the commercial on tv. boo hoo

    You hit it right on the head with this one. I agree with you 100%. Once the newness or honeymoon is over, the phone really is not that big of a deal. Over time, once the crowds around you gets smaller, the less appeal the phone has. Still, I get separation anxiety when I see the commercials on tv. Maybe you can agree with me that when you are at a dinner table with friends and family, once the demonstration is over....you sort of feel like....ok...what now?
    http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1211953

    Surur
    07-31-2007 03:37 PM
  20. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Wont help you though. If data is $5 per megabyte (which is about right for European rates) would it be very wise to use google maps?

    Surur
    That isnt the fee i will be charged though. Reread that thread again, the data rates are disclosed on ATTs website. What's funny is that with an international roaming data plan i'll pay far less than the Europeans on the same network
    07-31-2007 03:39 PM
  21. surur's Avatar
    That isnt the fee i will be charged though. Reread that thread again, the data rates are disclosed on ATTs website. What's funny is that with an international roaming data plan i'll pay far less than the Europeans on the same network
    International Data Global Plan for iPhone
    For just an additional $24.99 per month, iPhone customers may add a Data Global Plan to their existing domestic data plan and receive 20MB of data usage in 29 countries, including Canada, China, Mexico and many additional countries in Europe/Asia. Overage rate is $.005/KB. Outside the 29 discounted countries, the data usage rate is $.0195/KB

    **AT&T also imposes a Regulatory Cost Recovery Fee of up to $1.25 to help defray its costs incurred in complying with obligations and charges imposed by State and Federal telecom regulation, a gross receipts surcharge, and State and Federal Universal Service charges. The Regulatory Cost Recovery Fee is not a tax or a government-required
    Sorry, but $0.005 x 1000 = about $5 per megabyte. Your first 20 MB may cost you $25, but the next will cost you $100.
    http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/in...d-packages.jsp

    Surur
    07-31-2007 03:49 PM
  22. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    You hit it right on the head with this one. I agree with you 100%. Once the newness or honeymoon is over, the phone really is not that big of a deal. Over time, once the crowds around you gets smaller, the less appeal the phone has. Still, I get separation anxiety when I see the commercials on tv. Maybe you can agree with me that when you are at a dinner table with friends and family, once the demonstration is over....you sort of feel like....ok...what now?
    Some of us were lucky enough to get to this point while still in the Apple store. More people will pay $60 dollars to get past this point (after their return/re-stocking fee). Even more will pay $2000+ over 23 months wishing they'd made a more timely decision in the first month. Some will be satisfied for the entire time...and take a defensive stance regarding their high-priced purchase on boards like this one.
    07-31-2007 03:53 PM
  23. whmurray's Avatar
    Luck with products can be a weird thing.

    I had 3 MP3 players of the same brand and model go bad in one month and they should have been good, according to reviews(plus I liked them a lot). Got 3 exchanges from Best Buy and praying the 4th one works. Sometimes you get unlucky with one model, but others are the best for you.
    You have reported on so many toys that I do not know how you can keep the experiences separate in your head.
    07-31-2007 03:58 PM
  24. Denny Crane's Avatar
    Surur must not work. Either that or he has been commissioned by Microsoft to scour the internet in search of upset iPhone owners. He has drastically increased the hits on iPhone sites. Or he could just need to get a life.
    07-31-2007 04:44 PM
  25. cmaier's Avatar
    Apple just released firmware 1.0.1. So far reported benefits are increased volume, and no safari crashes while listening to music. The official change log is merely "bug fixes."

    Update: the volume increase is disputed.
    Update: on security issues, apple posted this: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306173
    07-31-2007 08:28 PM
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