1. surur's Avatar
    And it's still a better pdf viewer because i can see an entire page and read it. At 240x240, you cannot.
    My work horse is 480x640. I can see more, and I can see more detail. Do I win now?

    Now, back to the subject. You said "iphone users demand so little." You continue to insist that anyone who values different features than you, or has different needs than you, or who values a few quality features over quantity of features, is irrational, naive, has low standards, etc.
    I said people who are happy with very few features have low requirements. You still have not explained to me why its wrong. Its not a term of abuse, its a fact.

    It's fine to disagree with me, and it's fine to state facts and present arguments, but starting a few pages ago all you've come up with is, essentially, "the fact that you have different needs and requirements than me is illegitimate."
    Your interpretation is skewed. I am saying "Your requirements are low. Stop trying to sell your low spec device to me, just because you are happy with it." Its pretty simple really.

    And the fact that you think pdf viewing on your device is as good as on iphone is just another example of you straying from your safety zone of relying on copying first-hand reports; anyone who's actually TRIED an iphone and a WM device would be hard-pressed to summarily declare "my device is a better pdf viewer." That's like arguing Word is the best html editor, because it offers mail merge.
    Well, it just is. I told you why already. How about trying to tell me why its not.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 10:41 AM
  2. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Agreed. Something that is totally lost on the trifecta (Surur, Mally, MikeC).
    While I get all giddy thinking I'm part of some club, don't include me in your iPhone Illuminati paranoia.
    07-31-2007 10:41 AM
  3. mikec#IM's Avatar
    You are being intentionally insulting. I value:

    - being able to read and navigate pdfs and word documents as well as or better than I can on my work desktop machine
    - being able to count on my phone not crashing or locking up at inconvenient times (or, as with my treo 650, near constantly)
    - being able to browse nearly every website I need to browse and seeing it rendered in a way that is actually useful rather than painful (especially since more and more websites now rely on ajax)
    - being able to retrieve imap email from my own mailserver
    - being able to write my own working applications for my device
    - being able to carry on multiple SMS conversations simultaneously
    - being able to access google talk on occasion
    - being able to take occasional snapshots that actually look reasonable
    - being able to sync with all my outlook contact and calendar data

    Now, some of these things can be done on other devices, and some can be done better on other devices (heck bullet by bullet you can probably find a device that's better for any one of those), but I've yet to see a single device that does all of these in combination as well as iphone, and which does so while still "looking pretty" and being a joy to actually use.

    Your obsession with 3rd party apps (i want them too) is misplaced when you cite it in the abstract. 3rd party apps are only valuable in that they provide you the ability to do things you need to do that you otherwise couldn't. Webapps happen to suit my needs. I'd still like native apps for various reasons, but I'm happy. My expectations are not low. The damned phone does what I need it to do.

    Your refusal to accept that someone could have different priorities than you is simply moronic, and eliminates any shred of credibility you might otherwise have.

    I have frequently (on this thread and others) acknowledged problems, even when they aren't of concern to me, as being something that people with different values than my own might be affected by. You are incapable of doing the same, and thus have no credibility with me (I'm sure you're heartbroken).

    Yes, the iphone is shiny. But it's possible to be both shiny AND useful, and the iphone represents that combination for me because it does what I need it to do. When you can get your WM devices to instantly bring up a pdf on the screen so i can actually read the entire page at once, and so i can effortlessly and instantaneously page and zoom with as little trouble as I can on my iphone, then WM might become the phone for me.
    Cmaier,

    Does this mean that since I have acknowledged different people have different priorities, that I have more than a shred of credibility? ;-)
    07-31-2007 10:44 AM
  4. mikec#IM's Avatar
    for crying out loud it was you who decided to respond to one of my quotes and comment on it. do you not even remember what you say anymore? and what do you resort to? more spin and redirection.

    Surur, you're starting to show....and people are noticing. :o
    Now wait a minute, everybody was hating on me, and now surur is getting the brunt of that. I feel so left out... ;-)
    07-31-2007 10:48 AM
  5. surur's Avatar
    Mobileman,

    your requirements are illegitimate. It is proper to want to view gigantic animated gifs, but not proper to want to read the ny times with full formating. it is proper to want to be able to save pdfs on your phone, but not to be able to view stunning movies on it. it is improper to accept 320x480, and you should be willing to accept a pocket-busting form factor.

    if you weren't such a newbie, you would know that you are simply not asking enough from your phone.
    cmaier, maybe you missed the part where WM devices have a superset of the functionality of an iPhone. I can view gifs, save pdf's, AND view the full NY Times with full formatting and watch stunning movies. Thats the effect of having a more capable device.

    Main Entry: capable
    6 : having or showing general efficiency and ability
    How about putting an end to this argument by just admitting you have a less capable device, which you love. I can assure you no-one will look down on you for that.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 10:48 AM
  6. cmaier's Avatar
    Cmaier,

    Does this mean that since I have acknowledged different people have different priorities, that I have more than a shred of credibility? ;-)
    yes.

    Unlike surur, who has now resorted to "it just is!" as an argument, while ignoring my repeated assertions that being able to view an entire page in readable form and being able to navigate effortlessly are the reason why. (And yes, his higher resolution is even better, but that still doesn't buy him the ease of navigation. And I believe that's one gigantic device.)

    He also now is arguing in a loop. iphone users have low requirements because the iphone can't do much. Not that it can't do much that HE IS INTERESTED IN, mind you. It just can't do much. How does he know it can't do much? because iphone users have low requirements. That is why any time an iphone user points out a useful feature or benefit they derive from the device it doesn't count. iphone can do pinch and spread to zoom? that's only impressive because iphone users are dolts; ease of document navigation is not a legitimate feature. iphone has an incredible screen for viewing movies? iphone users value features that are not important. That's just bling. iphone can do email better than can versamail on palm? that can't be good enough for anyone, because some other phone can do it even better, and therefore iphone users have low requirements. (what? you mean you don't need lotus notes connectivity? troglodyte!) iphone fits in your pocket, unlike whatever beast of a device allows easy viewing of pdfs? get bigger pockets!

    There's a difference, which I think people recognize, between pointing out differences between devices and shortcomings of devices, and refusing to acknowledge that one user's requirements are just as legitimate as another's.
    07-31-2007 10:57 AM
  7. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    cmaier, you are obviously resiting the idea that you have a less capable device. Why I have no idea. No-one is saying you cant love your iPhone, and what it is capable of doing, but arguing that because you love one feature, its more capable and has more functionality that a device that can do the same + more is just irrational.
    You are sticking to your own definition of "capable." Not everyone needs to do what you do with their phone. If people just want the best mobile browser on the planet, email, text messaging, phone, decent camera plus a lot more then this phone is indeed capable. I have no need to be restricted to a smaller, less clear screen. I have no need to use outlook on my personal phone, I have no need for most of what you are claiming the iPhone can't do. So how is any other device any more capable than the iPhone if the iPhone does everything i need it to?

    I said people who are happy with very few features have low requirements. You still have not explained to me why its wrong. Its not a term of abuse, its a fact.
    Your implication here is derogatory and shows the failure of your argument. My requirements aren't "lower" than yours, theyre different. I require a larger screen, better browser, more stable OS, cleaner interface and style. I could say that anyone who doesnt require those has "low requirements," but that would be stupid because different people value different features more/less. Your problem is that anyone would be happy with their iPhone, and since you are now realizing that just about everyone who picked one up is happy with it you've decided that they are all less intelligent than you. That somehow your need for different functions and less style makes you more intelligent.
    07-31-2007 11:01 AM
  8. Denny Crane's Avatar
    cmaier, maybe you missed the part where WM devices have a superset of the functionality of an iPhone. I can view gifs, save pdf's, AND view the full NY Times with full formatting and watch stunning movies. Thats the effect of having a more capable device.



    How about putting an end to this argument by just admitting you have a less capable device, which you love. I can assure you no-one will look down on you for that.

    Surur
    I admit that I have a device that Surur is obsessed with.
    07-31-2007 11:02 AM
  9. surur's Avatar
    yes.

    Unlike surur, who has now resorted to "it just is!" as an argument, while ignoring my repeated assertions that being able to view an entire page in readable form and being able to navigate effortlessly are the reason why. (And yes, his higher resolution is even better, but that still doesn't buy him the ease of navigation. And I believe that's one gigantic device.)
    What ease of navigation? I can scroll with my fingers, I can use Find to jump to a section, I can jump to any page numbers. About the only thing I cant do is zoom with two fingers.

    I think you are mistaking glitz for ease of navigation.

    He also now is arguing in a loop. iphone users have low requirements because the iphone can't do much. Not that it can't do much that HE IS INTERESTED IN, mind you. It just can't do much. How does he know it can't do much? because iphone users have low requirements. That is why any time an iphone user points out a useful feature or benefit they derive from the device it doesn't count. iphone can do pinch and spread to zoom? that's only impressive because iphone users are dolts; ease of document navigation is not a legitimate feature. iphone has an incredible screen for viewing movies? iphone users value features that are not important. That's just bling. iphone can do email better than can versamail on palm? that can't be good enough for anyone, because some other phone can do it even better, and therefore iphone users have low requirements. (what? you mean you don't need lotus notes connectivity? troglodyte!) iphone fits in your pocket, unlike whatever beast of a device allows easy viewing of pdfs? get bigger pockets!
    There is no loop. The iPhone has low specs, independent of its users. That iPhone users do not mind the low specs says they have low requirements. No loop, just simple inference.

    There's a difference, which I think people recognize, between pointing out differences between devices and shortcomings of devices, and refusing to acknowledge that one user's requirements are just as legitimate as another's.
    Who says your requirements are not legitimate, just because they are lower? This is an inference you are making.

    Saying your low-spec device is better is where you are going wrong.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 11:06 AM
  10. oalvarez's Avatar
    Oalvarez, no need to get so excited. Its just a message board. You seem to be losing the train of the conversation. Try some deep breathing exercises.

    If you love your iPhone just because you love your iPhone, why come here and engage any of us with your posts? Its really not necessary, you know. I'm sure your time is better spend elsewhere.

    Surur
    no, you're saying that i'm excited but i am not. like your usual self you now begin with the redirection....now you try and paint an untruth about my level of excitability and how this is "just a message board." then you go on with prescribing "deep breathing exercises." derision, spin, redirection, futile attempts at being humorous. we all see it, it's obvious.

    this is a forum, one in which i've been posting since 2004. this is the "other handhelds, other devices" section of TreoCentral, where we speak about non-Treo devices. sorry to disappoint you but we're all entitled to participate here and elsewehere.
    07-31-2007 11:12 AM
  11. mobileman's Avatar
    Now wait a minute, everybody was hating on me, and now surur is getting the brunt of that. I feel so left out... ;-)
    dont worry, your a charter member of the trifecta. Who is in charge, you,Surur, or Mal?
    07-31-2007 11:13 AM
  12. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Surur you are changing the subject. I have admitted to every flaw in the device. (And it's still a better pdf viewer because i can see an entire page and read it. At 240x240, you cannot. I can also zoom and navigate it more easily. I know, I've tried it on WM, and everyone who i know who has WM prefers iphone for this task. And I can email a pdf to someone else as well. No, i can't search it, but since all pdfs i deal with are not ocr'd, i wouldn't be able to do this on my desktop, either. And zooming with two fingers is damned helpful when you have a giant pdf that you want to navigate almost as quickly as a stack of paper, so your flippant comment is just ignorant and more evidence you've never tried it).

    Now, back to the subject. You said "iphone users demand so little." You continue to insist that anyone who values different features than you, or has different needs than you, or who values a few quality features over quantity of features, is irrational, naive, has low standards, etc. It's disrespectful, and judging by the general lack of people rushing to your defense, it's obviously so.

    It's fine to disagree with me, and it's fine to state facts and present arguments, but starting a few pages ago all you've come up with is, essentially, "the fact that you have different needs and requirements than me is illegitimate."

    And the fact that you think pdf viewing on your device is as good as on iphone is just another example of you straying from your safety zone of relying on copying first-hand reports; anyone who's actually TRIED an iphone and a WM device would be hard-pressed to summarily declare "my device is a better pdf viewer." That's like arguing Word is the best html editor, because it offers mail merge.
    Um, the measure of someone's comments is not how many people rush to his defense. That seems like an odd metric, esp. in the forum world.

    I think this is all about the superlatives (or lack thereof). Instead of "low" many times it should be lowers.

    There are functions, and there are how well function are implemented for the user. Users vary in their implementation desire

    Arguing one feature (PDF) is pointless, as you (the general you) could go tit-for-tat all day. Usually, the summation of certain features provide the critical threshold for someone to be "satisfied" with their device.

    The other thing is you have to look at the relevant comparisons. MobileOSX is new, Palm OS is over 10 years old, and WM5 is, what 1 year and a half (someone correct me), and WM6 is new. Even at the OS level, there are significant differences.

    Apple chooses not to include features that other PDA/smartphones/phone have). That's thier choice. I liken this to MS locking WM screen sizes back in the early days (they have now opened that up.) BUt that constraint was a pain, even though I they were doing it for consistent experience (their desgin choice). However, MS did not make the hardware, so there is a difference in control there.

    For some, that's fine, for other's it's not. C'est la vie.

    I used to use Palm Treos, and put up with an enormous amount of issues (resets, etc.) because the form factor worked best for me. I switched to WM5 Treo, and was concerned about the screen resolution drop and interface. You know what? I adjusted, and appreacited the fact that the device was much more stable and easier to intergrate with my laptop. Is it perfect? Nope, but it works for me (until something better emerges.) And surprisingly, I can take whatever criticism people level on the Treo and WM and address them without feeling my honor has been impugned.

    Unfortunately, the key things for which I use the Treo are areas where the iPhone does not have the same feature/flexibilty. No knock against anyone else. Maybe the iPhone will have this some day. Who knows.

    However, the hype level around the iPhone (and to be honest, the apologistic nature of many on other forums that give Apple a pass on issues) is what is getting some well deserved lumps. Buit those lumps help make things better (albeit not as fast as many would like).

    And yes, I have used an iPhone, and yes, it's slick and cool (and frustrating in some spots).
    07-31-2007 11:13 AM
  13. mikec#IM's Avatar
    dont worry, your a charter member of the trifecta. Who is in charge, you,Surur, or Mal?
    There is no leader - that is why sheeple like yourself always get led down a path.
    07-31-2007 11:15 AM
  14. surur's Avatar
    You are sticking to your own definition of "capable." Not everyone needs to do what you do with their phone. If people just want the best mobile browser on the planet, email, text messaging, phone, decent camera plus a lot more then this phone is indeed capable. I have no need to be restricted to a smaller, less clear screen. I have no need to use outlook on my personal phone, I have no need for most of what you are claiming the iPhone can't do. So how is any other device any more capable than the iPhone if the iPhone does everything i need it to?
    The world does not revolve around you and your requirements. All devices are not equally capable. This is a fact. Why you would even argue this is beyond me.

    Your implication here is derogatory and shows the failure of your argument. My requirements aren't "lower" than yours, theyre different. I require a larger screen, better browser, more stable OS, cleaner interface and style. I could say that anyone who doesnt require those has "low requirements," but that would be stupid because different people value different features more/less.
    I never said I dont want those things too. However, I ALSO want open access to the file system, 3rd party apps, 3G, open push e-mail and options and features not provided by the iPhone. Thats why my requirements are higher, and yours are... lower.

    Why do you have a problem with this simple equation.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 11:15 AM
  15. mobileman's Avatar
    I don't think I ever complain about people having different views.

    As far as the number of posts, I'm not sure that is ever relevant (except maybe for the super-noob with one posts saying "I just got the inside scoop and the a 30GB, 3G, fully open iPhone is coming on Dec 1 and it's $199!"). :-)
    I agree, Malatesta was the one explaining whose posts are valid and whose are not. Maybe you should bring that up in your next "My cellphone can see animated .gifs and your cant. Therefore your phone sucks" club.
    07-31-2007 11:17 AM
  16. mobileman's Avatar
    Mobileman,

    your requirements are illegitimate. It is proper to want to view gigantic animated gifs, but not proper to want to read the ny times with full formating. it is proper to want to be able to save pdfs on your phone, but not to be able to view stunning movies on it. it is improper to accept 320x480, and you should be willing to accept a pocket-busting form factor.

    if you weren't such a newbie, you would know that you are simply not asking enough from your phone.
    Exactly!!!!


    Surur, Please tell me what device your viewing full webpages on. Is it your mini notebook (the HTC Universal), or your 320x240 HTC Touch?
    07-31-2007 11:19 AM
  17. surur's Avatar
    Look, some-one returned the iphone because its less capable. He should have know it was just "differently" capable.

    - why iReturned.
    Fit Dennis 07-30-2007 01:57

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    why iReturned.

    I did it. My beloved iPhone went back today. The last day of the return policy. Here's why iReturned

    Email- It's Beautiful, but not as complex as I'm used to. On my Blackberry BIS all mail sent from my handheld is also in the sent box on my online server. And now that HTML email is available on Blackberry I'm at no loss.
    My Fiancee and I will have full on email conversations since she sits at a desk all day and I'm on the go, so waiting 15 mins to get email was downright painful. Manually retreiving every time is not an elegant solution.
    And not having the ability to mark multiple items racked my nerves everytime my email went off. Which brings me to the fact I couldn't set different alerts for different email accounts. This is HUGE for me as I make full use of 5 different accounts. Some I want instant notification. Some I don't. Some are more urgent than others. Blackberry allows me to hear a different alert for each account and alows me to decide whether to take out the device to deal with it at that time or not.

    SMS- As a event promoter on the side I often send SMS messages to upwards of 700 people at one time. Blackberry alows me to make a group of all those people and select the group as the recipient. Enough said. Blackberry also shows as a chat just not as pretty.

    Maps- I thought I'd miss this until iRemembered Beyond411 for blackberry. Exact same functionality. No loss

    MP3- As much as I use my iPod I was SEVERELY limiting my phone time use. So I'm back to my 80gig Ipod and Blackberry Curve.

    There's more but these where the biggies. I went through 5 iPhones. in 14 days. That's just not kosher. I'll try it again when they give me a replaceable battery
    (http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1211953)

    Surur
    07-31-2007 11:25 AM
  18. mikec#IM's Avatar
    yes.

    Unlike surur, who has now resorted to "it just is!" as an argument, while ignoring my repeated assertions that being able to view an entire page in readable form and being able to navigate effortlessly are the reason why. (And yes, his higher resolution is even better, but that still doesn't buy him the ease of navigation. And I believe that's one gigantic device.)

    He also now is arguing in a loop. iphone users have low requirements because the iphone can't do much. Not that it can't do much that HE IS INTERESTED IN, mind you. It just can't do much. How does he know it can't do much? because iphone users have low requirements. That is why any time an iphone user points out a useful feature or benefit they derive from the device it doesn't count. iphone can do pinch and spread to zoom? that's only impressive because iphone users are dolts; ease of document navigation is not a legitimate feature. iphone has an incredible screen for viewing movies? iphone users value features that are not important. That's just bling. iphone can do email better than can versamail on palm? that can't be good enough for anyone, because some other phone can do it even better, and therefore iphone users have low requirements. (what? you mean you don't need lotus notes connectivity? troglodyte!) iphone fits in your pocket, unlike whatever beast of a device allows easy viewing of pdfs? get bigger pockets!

    There's a difference, which I think people recognize, between pointing out differences between devices and shortcomings of devices, and refusing to acknowledge that one user's requirements are just as legitimate as another's.
    I think it's much easier to discuss a device than a person. The device is (relatively) static, while people vary. A 18 year old who has never had corporate job might not have certain "requirements (needs)", or not even realized them before they take a job. Then, through experience, their needs change. So if you don't know "now" that you need something in the "future", does that mean your requirements are "low"? I don't think so. They are just are what they are.

    Different does not only apply to "high" and "low". It also applies to "inclusion" and absence of function.

    The device (hardware and OS and apps) can be examined a bit more objectively.

    The latest HD DVD or Blu-Ray movie is useless unless I have the player. And even if I have the player, it won't look to swell on that analog 3:4 TV I have.
    Similarly, the nice web browser experience is not "worth" it to some, as the other gaps are too hard to overcome (at this time).
    07-31-2007 11:26 AM
  19. mobileman's Avatar
    Look, some-one returned the iphone because its less capable. He should have know it was just "differently" capable.


    (http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1211953)

    Surur

    Stop the presses, Surur has discovered somebody that has returned their iPhone. This clearly proves all his points. The iPhone is doomed.

    I'm moving back to Windows Mobile because I have to have animated gifs. Classic.
    07-31-2007 11:27 AM
  20. mikec#IM's Avatar
    spb makes some nice stuff, though. But, yeah, it's a little bit of making lemonade out of lemons.

    So WM5 is a lemon?
    07-31-2007 11:28 AM
  21. mobileman's Avatar
    So WM5 is a lemon?
    When you need to purchase a 3rd party shell replacement, I would say so.
    07-31-2007 11:30 AM
  22. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Stop the presses, Surur has discovered somebody that has returned their iPhone. This clearly proves all his points. The iPhone is doomed.

    I'm moving back to Windows Mobile because I have to have animated gifs. Classic.
    If you read that person's posts, they had some legit reasons. Why not address those, rather than surur's post.

    I sure don't have the need to send 700 SMS messages at once (ex. groups), but some people do. And I guess the iPhone's SMS client does not have that yet. Dealbreaker for me? No, but it was for someone.
    07-31-2007 11:34 AM
  23. surur's Avatar
    Surur, Please tell me what device your viewing full webpages on.
    I can use either, but its better on the VGA screen. I can then cut and paste on either, and post the comments into this thread. I can then download a gif from somewhere and upload it to imageshack, like this.



    I can then view the post in full on either device

    I guess they are more capable devices, independent of the resolution or size of the screen.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 11:36 AM
  24. mikec#IM's Avatar
    When you need to purchase a 3rd party shell replacement, I would say so.
    So Palm OS would qualify too? And Symbian? (I think that can have custom skins, someone please correct)

    So basically every smartphone in the world is a lemon? (Except the iPhone, of course).
    07-31-2007 11:42 AM
  25. mobileman's Avatar
    I can use either, but its better on the VGA screen. I can then cut and paste on either, and post the comments into this thread. I can then download a gif from somewhere and upload it to imageshack, like this.



    I can then view the post in full on either device

    I guess they are more capable devices, independent of the resolution or size of the screen.

    Surur
    I'm sorry, but your VGA device is HUGE. It in no way can be considered a cell phone. Its a mini laptop replacement. I cant even imagine holding that thing up to my head to make a phone call.

    I used the HTC 8125 for months. Browsing on PIE on a 320x240 screen is painful for most sites that are not formated for the small screen. It was a scroll fest. I only went to mobile websites on the device. You would think MS would have come out with a better browser years ago.
    07-31-2007 11:44 AM
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