1. oalvarez's Avatar
    Sure it could be better, but technology can always be improved upon. A 320x320 WM Treo should be very nice (800w).

    "technology can always be improved upon"

    ---yes sir, no doubt. unlike the iPhone of course as it lives in some sort of static environment impervious to change. right?

    "a 320x320 WM Treo should be very nice"

    ---yes sir, no doubt....a big improvement over the 240x240 WM screen resolution currently employed. but if it's yet another brick......
    07-30-2007 10:22 PM
  2. Malatesta's Avatar
    "technology can always be improved upon"

    ---yes sir, no doubt. unlike the iPhone of course as it lives in some sort of static environment impervious to change. right?
    Umm...

    My original criticism of the iPhone has always been consistent and I don't think what you are implying is true for what I've said are my issues:

    - no 3rd party apps
    - no 3g
    - no Sprint

    I've always maintained had it had those features I would at least try it out. But AT&T is a rip off compared to my current plan and I won't revert to 2g after having 3g for nearly 2 years already (factor in I'm already very happy with the 700wx and what it does).

    Everything else that I've said (like no copy/paste) are not deal-breakers but merely pet-peeves which I could apply to
    any device.

    Other than that the resolution issue is subjective: some will not like it, others don't mind it. Of course it can't compare the to the iPhone in resolution or size, but for what it is, it quite usable.
    07-30-2007 10:26 PM
  3. oalvarez's Avatar
    fair enough.
    07-30-2007 10:29 PM
  4. mobileman's Avatar
    Really? I think in Jan 2006 when the WM Treo was first introduced this would have been the case, but honestly there is not a single program I cannot run on a WM Treo due to it's resolution. Sure it could be better, but technology can always be improved upon. A 320x320 WM Treo should be very nice (800w).

    Browsing is very easy. Here are a few shots of the "web" on the Treo:



    Those shots of the NY Times and Treocentral, are they from the mobile sites or the real ones?
    07-31-2007 12:41 AM
  5. surur's Avatar
    far from full experience? i need to be able to read the information, the text, that is important to me. being able to watch and see animated gifs like you do, isn't.
    That statement does not really support your argument. If you only need the text, why do you need the iPhone. Most mobile browsers can get to the text just fine. I can get text and flash and gifs. I am less than impressed.

    But keep trying.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 02:46 AM
  6. surur's Avatar
    Those shots of the NY Times and Treocentral, are they from the mobile sites or the real ones?
    If it contains the same information, whats the difference?

    Surur
    07-31-2007 02:47 AM
  7. surur's Avatar
    You are being intentionally insulting. I value:

    - being able to read and navigate pdfs and word documents as well as or better than I can on my work desktop machine
    - being able to count on my phone not crashing or locking up at inconvenient times (or, as with my treo 650, near constantly)
    - being able to browse nearly every website I need to browse and seeing it rendered in a way that is actually useful rather than painful (especially since more and more websites now rely on ajax)
    - being able to retrieve imap email from my own mailserver
    - being able to write my own working applications for my device
    - being able to carry on multiple SMS conversations simultaneously
    - being able to access google talk on occasion
    - being able to take occasional snapshots that actually look reasonable
    - being able to sync with all my outlook contact and calendar data

    Now, some of these things can be done on other devices, and some can be done better on other devices (heck bullet by bullet you can probably find a device that's better for any one of those), but I've yet to see a single device that does all of these in combination as well as iphone, and which does so while still "looking pretty" and being a joy to actually use.

    Your obsession with 3rd party apps (i want them too) is misplaced when you cite it in the abstract. 3rd party apps are only valuable in that they provide you the ability to do things you need to do that you otherwise couldn't. Webapps happen to suit my needs. I'd still like native apps for various reasons, but I'm happy. My expectations are not low. The damned phone does what I need it to do.

    Your refusal to accept that someone could have different priorities than you is simply moronic, and eliminates any shred of credibility you might otherwise have.

    I have frequently (on this thread and others) acknowledged problems, even when they aren't of concern to me, as being something that people with different values than my own might be affected by. You are incapable of doing the same, and thus have no credibility with me (I'm sure you're heartbroken).

    Yes, the iphone is shiny. But it's possible to be both shiny AND useful, and the iphone represents that combination for me because it does what I need it to do. When you can get your WM devices to instantly bring up a pdf on the screen so i can actually read the entire page at once, and so i can effortlessly and instantaneously page and zoom with as little trouble as I can on my iphone, then WM might become the phone for me.
    For your convenience you gave up a huge amount of freedom. For your needs the iPhone may be useful, but with the Iphone being so limited, I really dont see how I am wrong to assume your needs are also.

    - being able to read and navigate pdfs and word documents as well as or better than I can on my work desktop machine

    But you are not able to store these documents locally, edit them, store and forward them or any of the useful features available in more capable devices.

    - being able to count on my phone not crashing or locking up at inconvenient times (or, as with my treo 650, near constantly)

    Maybe using a device with no memory protection or proper multi-tasking as your benchmark is the real problem.

    - being able to browse nearly every website I need to browse and seeing it rendered in a way that is actually useful rather than painful (especially since more and more websites now rely on ajax)

    And you give up simple things like being able to cut and paste from those web pages, or being able to up or download content.

    - being able to retrieve imap email from my own mailserver

    This is scraping the bottom of the barrel on features, as its so far from unique its not even relevant.

    - being able to write my own working applications for my device

    Sorry, you could do a lot more with a device that allows native development.

    - being able to carry on multiple SMS conversations simultaneously

    Again, not unique, and most other devices allow IM too.

    - being able to access google talk on occasion

    And other devices allow google talk AND skype.

    - being able to take occasional snapshots that actually look reasonable

    Again, as this is not a unique or even exclusive feature, and the Iphone camera is severely under-featured, I fail to see how this even was part of your decision making.

    - being able to sync with all my outlook contact and calendar data

    Other devices do it better.

    The Iphone does most things on your list poorer than competing devices, therefore your needs must be pretty limited if you are happy with its performance.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 04:03 AM
  8. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    Honestly, I still think it's the appearance, sleekness and coolness, and not completely the performance of the iPhone, that many are in love with. If the iPhone weren't so hot looking, many would have returned it already. JMO, but I do suspect that looking at some(SOME, not all) posts. When you start making excuses for a phone lacking something, it means you really like the phone for reasons other than performance.
    07-31-2007 05:52 AM
  9. oalvarez's Avatar
    That statement does not really support your argument. If you only need the text, why do you need the iPhone.

    Surur
    because of its large, bright and clear screen. all that matters is what i like and get out of the iPhone, not what you don't like or can't comprehend (nor read). i said the text was "important to me" and did not say "i only need the text."

    that was easy.
    07-31-2007 07:44 AM
  10. surur's Avatar
    because of its large, bright and clear screen. all that matters is what i like and get out of the iPhone, not what you don't like or can't comprehend (nor read). i said the text was "important to me" and did not say "i only need the text."

    that was easy.
    Then dear oalvarez, why are you even talking to me about it? 'Because I say so!' has never been the most convincing argument in the world, no matter how easy it is to say.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 07:58 AM
  11. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    It's almost like Surur takes it personally that some folks like the iPhone. He needs help.
    That is exactly what it is. He saw all the hype surrounding the iPhone and proclaimed himself some sort of "iPhone hype vigilante!" His goal? To spread enough anecdotal and disinformation to attempt to counter the iPhone hype. The only problem is that the iPhone has largely lived up to the hype and the overwhelming majority of iPhone owners are happy with their purchase.

    If it contains the same information, whats the difference?

    Surur
    The world isnt simply based on function, form is a significant consideration.
    07-31-2007 08:04 AM
  12. oalvarez's Avatar
    for crying out loud it was you who decided to respond to one of my quotes and comment on it. do you not even remember what you say anymore? and what do you resort to? more spin and redirection.

    Surur, you're starting to show....and people are noticing. :o
    07-31-2007 08:07 AM
  13. surur's Avatar
    for crying out loud it was you who decided to respond to one of my quotes and comment on it. do you not even remember what you say anymore? and what do you resort to? more spin and redirection.
    Oalvarez, no need to get so excited. Its just a message board. You seem to be losing the train of the conversation. Try some deep breathing exercises.

    If you love your iPhone just because you love your iPhone, why come here and engage any of us with your posts? Its really not necessary, you know. I'm sure your time is better spend elsewhere.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 08:22 AM
  14. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    Honestly, I still think it's the appearance, sleekness and coolness, and not completely the performance of the iPhone, that many are in love with.
    Exactly. I find it amusing that many iPhone users are drawn to its sleek look and clever interfaces and then go over-the-top trying to claim its functionality is on par with other (more capable) devices. Simply put, it's a good phone with some good functionality with an excellent interface (for most of its functionality)...perhaps even $600 worth.
    07-31-2007 08:28 AM
  15. mobileman's Avatar
    If it contains the same information, whats the difference?Surur
    Let me get this straight. When I asked if that was a mobile site or a real site, this was your answer, yet when complaining about the iPhones lack of being able to display animated .gifs you said....

    Its funny, but most of those sites use flash extensively, implying that even with an iPhone you are getting far from a full experience. I'm sure that does not concern you either.Surur

    I think you need to go to dictionary.com and look up the word "Hypocrite". Make sure to use the mobile site though if you are using your Windows Mobile device.


    As an iPhone user, I never go to mobile sites, and yes there is a big difference. If not, Surur, why don't you just use rss feeds, it contains the same information.
    07-31-2007 08:50 AM
  16. surur's Avatar
    Mobileman, there is a rather big difference. WM never promised to give users the "Real Internet". iPhone is being held to higher standards. Get it?

    And RSS feeds - of course thats the best way to get info fast. Its what I use all the time. I only go to the full site if a) the story is of interest and b) they do not include it in full.

    Do you actually see a full story in a RSS feed and then hop on over to the site for the formatting? That would fit in perfectly in your style-over-substance world.

    Surur
    07-31-2007 09:08 AM
  17. mobileman's Avatar
    Mobileman, there is a rather big difference. WM never promised to give users the "Real Internet". iPhone is being held to higher standards. Get it?

    And RSS feeds - of course thats the best way to get info fast. Its what I use all the time. I only go to the full site if a) the story is of interest and b) they do not include it in full.

    Do you actually see a full story in a RSS feed and then hop on over to the site for the formatting? That would fit in perfectly in your style-over-substance world.

    Surur

    No need for me, I just go to the real site. I guess the only thing I'm missing is flash and apparently animated .gifs. Couldnt be missing them to much though because I can never tell the difference.

    Microsoft is very smart not to advertise WM as having the true internet. Amazing really because its been around for years and really hasn't improved that much.
    07-31-2007 09:14 AM
  18. AnteL0pe's Avatar
    Do you actually see a full story in a RSS feed and then hop on over to the site for the formatting? That would fit in perfectly in your style-over-substance world.

    Surur
    Youre failing to recognize that not everyone falls at the same point on the style |--------------| substance graph, and that any position is just as valid as another. You obviously place little or no value on style, thus WM is better for you. So be it, but that doesnt mean that your position is any better or worse than someone who values style more. You are not a better person, you are not a better phone user, you are not smarter, you are not superior just because you dont value style. The fact that you are taking shots at people who simply dont agree with you is pretty silly.
    07-31-2007 09:17 AM
  19. cmaier's Avatar
    Once again Surur comes back with a response that the features I value are invalid. Because iphone doesn't have OTHER features, that he values (I say I like the way it views pdfs. he says that since it doesn't SAVE pdfs, it's not a good feature ), I have low functional requirements.

    Anyone see the pattern? It's a fundamental disrespect for anyone who harbors differing opinions. He is incapable of discussing anything neutrally, of acknowledging actual benefits of the device he has decided to lambast, or of acknowledging that people who use their phones differently than he does are just as intelligent, demanding, and discerning as he is.

    The funny thing is someday Surur will actually try an iphone, realize that the way the core features are implemented actually saves him time and allows him to do things he couldn't do before, realize that being able to set his phone background to an animated klingon maybe isn't so valuable, and will buy 10 iphones to add to his collection.
    07-31-2007 09:30 AM
  20. surur's Avatar
    cmaier, you are obviously resiting the idea that you have a less capable device. Why I have no idea. No-one is saying you cant love your iPhone, and what it is capable of doing, but arguing that because you love one feature, its more capable and has more functionality that a device that can do the same + more is just irrational.

    I can view pdf's with my Adobe Reader on my 3.6 inch VGA-screened WM device. I can even scroll with my fingers. To zoom I click an icon - doesn't kill me to do that, but I can save the pdf to me device, and e-mail it so some-one else etc. Can you even search inside a pdf on the iphone?

    How could a rational person not argue my device is a better pdf viewer? Maybe some-one who likes the way you can zoom with two fingers can.

    If my device is more capable and more functional, and you are happy with your low functionality device, how can you disagree that your functionality requirements are lower?

    Surur
    07-31-2007 10:00 AM
  21. cmaier's Avatar
    Surur you are changing the subject. I have admitted to every flaw in the device. (And it's still a better pdf viewer because i can see an entire page and read it. At 240x240, you cannot. I can also zoom and navigate it more easily. I know, I've tried it on WM, and everyone who i know who has WM prefers iphone for this task. And I can email a pdf to someone else as well. No, i can't search it, but since all pdfs i deal with are not ocr'd, i wouldn't be able to do this on my desktop, either. And zooming with two fingers is damned helpful when you have a giant pdf that you want to navigate almost as quickly as a stack of paper, so your flippant comment is just ignorant and more evidence you've never tried it).

    Now, back to the subject. You said "iphone users demand so little." You continue to insist that anyone who values different features than you, or has different needs than you, or who values a few quality features over quantity of features, is irrational, naive, has low standards, etc. It's disrespectful, and judging by the general lack of people rushing to your defense, it's obviously so.

    It's fine to disagree with me, and it's fine to state facts and present arguments, but starting a few pages ago all you've come up with is, essentially, "the fact that you have different needs and requirements than me is illegitimate."

    And the fact that you think pdf viewing on your device is as good as on iphone is just another example of you straying from your safety zone of relying on copying first-hand reports; anyone who's actually TRIED an iphone and a WM device would be hard-pressed to summarily declare "my device is a better pdf viewer." That's like arguing Word is the best html editor, because it offers mail merge.
    07-31-2007 10:13 AM
  22. mobileman's Avatar
    If my device is more capable and more functional, and you are happy with your low functionality device, how can you disagree that your functionality requirements are lower?

    Surur
    You view rss feeds. I go to the real site. My functionality is higher, how can you stand using you low functionality device?

    The music features on the iPhone blow away windows mobile. How can you stand using your low functionality device?

    By the way, your vga device is the size of a small laptop.
    07-31-2007 10:17 AM
  23. cmaier's Avatar
    You view rss feeds. I go to the real site. My functionality is higher, how can you stand using you low functionality device?

    The music features on the iPhone blow away windows mobile. How can you stand using your low functionality device?

    By the way, your vga device is the size of a small laptop.
    Mobileman,

    your requirements are illegitimate. It is proper to want to view gigantic animated gifs, but not proper to want to read the ny times with full formating. it is proper to want to be able to save pdfs on your phone, but not to be able to view stunning movies on it. it is improper to accept 320x480, and you should be willing to accept a pocket-busting form factor.

    if you weren't such a newbie, you would know that you are simply not asking enough from your phone.
    07-31-2007 10:25 AM
  24. Denny Crane's Avatar
    Mobileman,

    your requirements are illegitimate. It is proper to want to view gigantic animated gifs, but not proper to want to read the ny times with full formating. it is proper to want to be able to save pdfs on your phone, but not to be able to view stunning movies on it. it is improper to accept 320x480, and you should be willing to accept a pocket-busting form factor.

    if you weren't such a newbie, you would know that you are simply not asking enough from your phone.
    LMAO! You captured the essence of Surur.
    07-31-2007 10:38 AM
  25. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Or, like in your case, you want to complain when people have different opinions than yours. Either way, it's odd that Mally complained that I post here frequently and didn't comment on the frequent posts of people that have negative iPhone views. I also think a person with over 2200 posts should never comment on how often another person posts. That was my point MikeC. I'm sure you will have an intelligent, positive response.
    I don't think I ever complain about people having different views.

    As far as the number of posts, I'm not sure that is ever relevant (except maybe for the super-noob with one posts saying "I just got the inside scoop and the a 30GB, 3G, fully open iPhone is coming on Dec 1 and it's $199!"). :-)
    07-31-2007 10:39 AM
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