1. sxtg's Avatar
    An enhanced calculator to replace the stock one should be the first "real" app.

    Why do people keep insisting that apple will open it for 3rd party apps? Is that the last frontier of hope for this V 1.000000000000001 Godsend?
    07-28-2007 11:46 AM
  2. braj's Avatar
    I think they didn't include the extra features because it would take away from the simplicity of the interface. Which is exactly what appears to be wrong with the iPhone. In an effort to make it simple to use, they made it too simple. This would be 100% ok had they let 3rd parties develop more apps. And my buying one 100% hinges on them adding 3rd party access, which they have shown no indication of doing. Apple (Stevo?) is particularly stubborn to admit when they were wrong about something, so my guess is the iPhone will sit back without this constant innovation from its usersbase while other platforms play catch-up with their own interfaces. Will Apple see the light before others make slick interfaces? I doubt it.
    07-28-2007 12:31 PM
  3. cmaier's Avatar
    I now have one of each, so I can give a little bit of a comparison.

    The apple is clearly smaller and lighter. The audio quality is about the same from each (so far). I can't really tell them apart.

    I'm not real happy with the fit of either, but at least, because of the earhook, the jawbone doesn't fall off.

    Jawbone is less sensitive to distance from the iphone (to be expected, i suppose, due to its increased size). The difference is not much, though. I still think that people who are disappointed with the ability to roam far from the phone are used to much bigger earphones.

    People on the other end of the call don't seem to have a preference, but I haven't yet tried the jawbone in a high-noise situation.

    Pairing was easy (just holding a button for a few seconds) but not as easy as the apple (which just needs to be placed in the same dock as the phone to pair). For some reason I didn't have to enter a code on the iphone, despite directions in the jawbone documentation.

    So far my wife prefers the apple, and i prefer the jawbone, primarily due to fit issues. (my ears are such that in-ear phones always fall out unless they have compressible foam tips). The jawbone come with 4 ear hooks and 4 ear pieces, but it really comes down to two sizes of each (2 each for left and right ears).
    07-28-2007 12:44 PM
  4. cmaier's Avatar
    I think they didn't include the extra features because it would take away from the simplicity of the interface. Which is exactly what appears to be wrong with the iPhone. In an effort to make it simple to use, they made it too simple. This would be 100% ok had they let 3rd parties develop more apps. And my buying one 100% hinges on them adding 3rd party access, which they have shown no indication of doing. Apple (Stevo?) is particularly stubborn to admit when they were wrong about something, so my guess is the iPhone will sit back without this constant innovation from its usersbase while other platforms play catch-up with their own interfaces. Will Apple see the light before others make slick interfaces? I doubt it.
    I think the real reason is that building security has improved:

    http://www.pacifict.com/Story/


    Personally, if it ain't an HP-48 emulator, I ain't interested in using it, anyway. (And for those of you complaining about lack of a "%" key, you are either mathematically illiterate or, more likely, calculator heathens who labor under the mistaken belief that calculators also need "=" keys. This is the only proper calculator keyboard (and it ain't got no %):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HP48G.jpg

    I started writing my own RPN web-based calculator but stopped to focus on games. Maybe I'll get back to it.
    07-28-2007 12:51 PM
  5. surur's Avatar
    The calculator is obviously a minor issue, but with no clear entry and no backspace key, when you make any mistake in keying you will have to start all over again. This is emblamatic of how Apple makes things more complicated by making them too simple.

    And with no 3rd party apps there is no way of fixing these issues either.

    Surur
    07-28-2007 01:06 PM
  6. cmaier's Avatar
    There certainly is a way to fix the calculator problem. There are plenty of third party web-based calculators, and since these are generally javascript rather than server-based, they can either be cached or stored in a bookmark using the data: trick (there's already a website, pagemarks (? can't remember), where you can create these bookmarks from html pages, pdfs, word docs, etc.)

    Yes, not ideal, but "no way of fixing these issues" is not entirely accurate.
    07-28-2007 01:30 PM
  7. sxtg's Avatar
    I think the real reason is that building security has improved:

    http://www.pacifict.com/Story/


    Personally, if it ain't an HP-48 emulator, I ain't interested in using it, anyway. (And for those of you complaining about lack of a "%" key, you are either mathematically illiterate or, more likely, calculator heathens who labor under the mistaken belief that calculators also need "=" keys. This is the only proper calculator keyboard (and it ain't got no %):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HP48G.jpg

    I started writing my own RPN web-based calculator but stopped to focus on games. Maybe I'll get back to it.
    Maybe V 2.0000000000001 will just come with a pencil and a pad of paper
    07-28-2007 01:31 PM
  8. whmurray's Avatar
    The calculator is obviously a minor issue, but with no clear entry and no backspace key, when you make any mistake in keying you will have to start all over again. This is emblamatic of how Apple makes things more complicated by making them too simple.

    And with no 3rd party apps there is no way of fixing these issues either.

    Surur
    Use Google. Google is your friend.
    07-28-2007 01:39 PM
  9. braj's Avatar
    There certainly is a way to fix the calculator problem. There are plenty of third party web-based calculators, and since these are generally javascript rather than server-based, they can either be cached or stored in a bookmark using the data: trick (there's already a website, pagemarks (? can't remember), where you can create these bookmarks from html pages, pdfs, word docs, etc.)

    Yes, not ideal, but "no way of fixing these issues" is not entirely accurate.
    Yeah, but me personally, I don't want to use web apps. I want full 3rd party apps. I want all the types of apps I have on my Palm: a music sequencer, photo editing, more advanced datebook, IM app of my choice, games, and anthing else I see released that seems useful and interesting. And IMO all these could be done spectacularly with the iPhone and multitouch. It just seems like such a waste of potential. I'll just wait and see what happens in the next year or so, my 'best bet' is that Apple will make my next device but that really hinges on real 3rd party support.
    07-28-2007 01:48 PM
  10. cmaier's Avatar
    braj - that's a different issue.

    limiting discussion to calculator, a web-based calculator stored on the iphone would be virtually indistinguishable from a native calculator, the main difference being you need to click more times to get to it and the bottom of the calc would have the web toolbar (many apps, mine included, eliminate the addressbar).
    07-28-2007 01:52 PM
  11. cmaier's Avatar
    BTW, this is probably the best solution right now:

    http://iphav.com/Calculator/Calculator.html

    I saw a prettier one someplace, but can't recall where.

    Some info on the iphone calc design:

    http://www.core77.com/blog/technolog...it_is_6929.asp

    (too bad it's missing that left column)
    07-28-2007 01:56 PM
  12. mobileman's Avatar
    Yeah, but me personally, I don't want to use web apps. I want full 3rd party apps. I want all the types of apps I have on my Palm
    You know what then braj, just maybe the iPhone isn't for you then.
    07-28-2007 02:15 PM
  13. surur's Avatar
    BTW, this is probably the best solution right now:

    http://iphav.com/Calculator/Calculator.html

    I saw a prettier one someplace, but can't recall where.

    Some info on the iphone calc design:

    http://www.core77.com/blog/technolog...it_is_6929.asp

    (too bad it's missing that left column)
    Its funny, but even that web app lacks backspace or CE. Anyway, as I have said, all these work around seem to be against the spirit of simplicity.

    Surur
    07-28-2007 02:25 PM
  14. cmaier's Avatar
    Agreed, and i'm fairly certain we will see improvements, especially because none of the apple people i know are idiots, and they are all going to be as frustrated about this stuff (with their free iphones) as the rest of us.

    There are lots of clues that some major firmware changes are coming around the time leopard is released.
    07-28-2007 02:28 PM
  15. cmaier's Avatar
    This one is kind of nice:

    http://m.netninja.com/calc/
    07-28-2007 02:45 PM
  16. surur's Avatar
    Agreed, and i'm fairly certain we will see improvements, especially because none of the apple people i know are idiots, and they are all going to be as frustrated about this stuff (with their free iphones) as the rest of us.

    There are lots of clues that some major firmware changes are coming around the time leopard is released.
    Thanks for that link about the Apple graphing calculator. I have actually read that story before, and it gives an interesting insight into all the work that goes into shipping even small features.

    With that in mind, what would give me concern would be if Apple intentionally omitted features, and have done months of usability testing, and decided the man in the street does not need the display cluttered up by a backspace key, and will therefore never give people even simple features they want.

    For example, I am sure the next update will say something like "enhanced memory management which will reduce the likelihood of errors in Safari", but its unlikely to say "Enhanced calculator, now with backspace key".

    Surur
    07-28-2007 02:48 PM
  17. cmaier's Avatar
    I think you will be surprised
    07-28-2007 02:58 PM
  18. oalvarez's Avatar
    do you all use the calculator function that often? The question isn't meant to justify the omittance of a backspace key or the like.
    07-28-2007 04:27 PM
  19. cmaier's Avatar
    i use it, rarely. Anything i can do on that calculator i can usually do in my head. And I rarely need to perform calculus away from my hp calc.

    My wife uses hers quite a bit for quick calculations.

    Honestly, i probably used the palm calculator a dozen times in all the years i had it.
    07-28-2007 04:42 PM
  20. oalvarez's Avatar
    probably the same for me, one time a month on average, if that!
    07-28-2007 04:47 PM
  21. sxtg's Avatar
    Perhaps in 5 yrs when we all catch up, no one will be using calculators. Maybe this half a** implementation is just meant as a stepping stone for us normal folk who stumble on to this wonder of technology.
    07-28-2007 05:33 PM
  22. surur's Avatar
    do you all use the calculator function that often? The question isn't meant to justify the omittance of a backspace key or the like.
    If that question is directed at me, my 10 year old often uses my calculator while doing homework, because regular calculators are never where you think you left them last, and phones are always at hand.

    I would miss a backspace button - to me is a simple usability feature that really should be present, especially when using a touch screen.

    Surur
    07-28-2007 06:05 PM
  23. mikec#IM's Avatar
    You keep making false statements. I respect people who don't make any false statements.

    I don't have to prove anything. You're the one who attacked me without evidence.

    It's the same topic. My point was that you narrowed the focus to a minor part of her job. Even by that measure she did well.

    Yes you did. Read post #1831.

    I didn't. As I said, she was wrong for a few years. But then she was right again.

    Again, no. I said she was right more than she was wrong. She's a perpetual bull; she was right through the 90s, wrong in the bear market for a few years, and then right again. This is common knowledge. You're disputing this by pointing at what everyone knows.

    Since we're OT, I'll give you the last word. If you're consistent, you'll make another false claim, but I'll try to let it go. I look forward to more iPhone posts.
    Well, third time's a charm. Still a prickly pontificator. I will still be polite, even though you don't deserve it.

    I guess here's where the crux of the issue is - I never attacked you, just countered something you said about analysts. The burden of proof is on you, whether you like it or not, because you started it with you initial statement. But you don't see that.

    I did not narrow the focus; you asserted predicting the market as the key skill, not the subsequent items you posted. I responded with evidence, which you discard, because "everyone knows it." Maybe so, but it still does not prove your point.

    You keep saying "perpetual bull". Well, that really doesn't mean much...for the past 50 years, anyone can be a long term bull, and the market just keeps going up (even with corrections). No magic there. Predicting the upturns and downturns is what counts.


    Re: #1831, I thought she was "off" those years, although the site is down so I can't check. If I am wrong, I will be glad to admit it. Once it's up, I will repost. Again, it does not prove you point. (Please provide the 1992-2000 data if you have it.) Still my previous post in #1775 points to my initial position. Agian, you ignore/discard.

    No false claims have been made, just a polite response.

    You may find it tiresome, etc, but quite frankly, too many people at TC make claims of all types without explanation or substantiation. As surur said, quoting Smokey the Bear, only you can prevent false perceptions (or something like that.) I've been around her long enough to see this and call a spade a spade. I'm admitted mistakes, apologized, etc. where it is warranted (one of the very few on TC), and be relentless on those who are full of themselves and make spurious claims.

    I guess we can get back OT with the iPhone....it was those analysts predicting iPhone sales that got us starting down this path. I'll blame it on them ;-)
    07-28-2007 06:12 PM
  24. mikec#IM's Avatar
    do you all use the calculator function that often? The question isn't meant to justify the omittance of a backspace key or the like.
    I don't use the calculator much, but when I, I need a reasonably full function one. No CE key?

    Well, I suppose it was a design tradeoff. While a minor annoyance, I hardly put it up there in the "suck" category.
    07-28-2007 06:15 PM
  25. oalvarez's Avatar
    If that question is directed at me, my 10 year old often uses my calculator while doing homework, because regular calculators are never where you think you left them last, and phones are always at hand.

    I would miss a backspace button - to me is a simple usability feature that really should be present, especially when using a touch screen.

    Surur
    no, that question wasn't directed at you.....it's for anyone to answer, thanks for yours.
    07-28-2007 06:18 PM
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