1. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Clearly posted by somebody that has never used the iPhone (but won't miss an opportunity to complain about it). You do not need to scroll through every name using the rolodex method. On the right side of the screen, the letters of the alphabet are displayed vertically. You can tap on the corresponding letter to go right to that area in your contact list. If you want to call somebody whose last name starts with "Z", you do not need to scroll through the entire database.
    Clearly, this is written by someone who has never used a rolodex. You see there are these little tab as the top for each letter...

    Yes, I have used and iPhone, and know how it works.

    Before you make false assertions, you should not assume you know what a person has or has not done, and you should understand the analogy before you critique it.
    07-23-2007 04:55 PM
  2. Malatesta's Avatar
    With all due respect Malatesta, Deepfish has nothing on Mobile Safari. I installed it on a few of my work devices, and while it might be the best WM browser available, it still has a ways to go before it can compete. I'm also wondering how much effort Microsoft will put into developing it further.
    It's basic functions are similar i.e. view the whole web site "as is" with controlled zoom.

    Now, in current form, it doesn't compare in richness of Safari, but as I stressed: this is a "technology preview" pre-alpha and pre-beta, so a direct comparison of a fully released browser vs. basically a "usable demo" is a bit inaccurate, imo.

    I think MS will develop this a lot. It'll be the standard browser for Photon (I'm betting). They wouldn't even have thrown it out there so early if they weren't looking to build off of it and with 3g getting wider and more standard, it actually makes sense as the next evolution of mobile browsing.

    and Pattycerts, you're level-headed too, don't feel left out, lol :thumbsup:
    07-23-2007 04:57 PM
  3. braj's Avatar
    Being able to narrow down a large contact DB based on categories or companies is very 1986. Why Apple didn't do so is very strange actually, as well as the same in the Calendar app. They do seem very half-baked even for a personal device.
    07-23-2007 04:58 PM
  4. mobileman's Avatar
    It's basic functions are similar i.e. view the whole web site "as is" with controlled zoom.

    Now, in current form, it doesn't compare in richness of Safari, but as I stressed: this is a "technology preview" pre-alpha and pre-beta, so a direct comparison of a fully released browser vs. basically a "usable demo" is a bit inaccurate, imo.

    I think MS will develop this a lot. It'll be the standard browser for Photon (I'm betting). They wouldn't even have thrown it out there so early if they weren't looking to build off of it and with 3g getting wider and more standard, it actually makes sense as the next evolution of mobile browsing.
    Well, you did say "MS's Deepfish is not too far off from what Safari can do". I definately disagree with you here. The internet browsing experience of Deepfish, still is not what I would call pleasant. I hope MS does develop it further, and with a completely different development team that did Windows Live for WM.

    I also think for Microsoft to compete with safari, they need to talk to the hardware suppliers about bumping up screen resolution. Even the mighty Kaiser coming soon is still 320x240. Its tough to compete with Safari like that.
    07-23-2007 05:05 PM
  5. mobileman's Avatar
    Before you make false assertions, you should not assume you know what a person has or has not done, and you should understand the analogy before you critique it.
    Please explain this part of your quote then
    I think I would go batty scrolling through hundreds or thousands of contacts manually

    Why would I ever need to do this on an iPhone?
    07-23-2007 05:07 PM
  6. braj's Avatar
    Please explain this part of your quote then


    Why would I ever need to do this on an iPhone?
    It would be easy to have hundreds of contacts starting with really common letters. So hitting 'S' you could still have a gang of thumbing through your phonebook before you get to what you are looking for.

    It seems to me that someone at Apple thought the flicking thing was so cool that they would make it mandatory, as opposed to using tried and true methods, they want you to flick as much as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if they begrudgingly put in the letter sorting just because they had to
    07-23-2007 05:12 PM
  7. mobileman's Avatar
    It would be easy to have hundreds of contacts starting with really common letters. So hitting 'S' you could still have a gang of thumbing through your phonebook before you get to what you are looking for.

    It seems to me that someone at Apple thought the flicking thing was so cool that they would make it mandatory, as opposed to using tried and true methods, they want you to flick as much as possible.
    So your trying to tell me you have thousands of people in your contacts list whose name is starting with the same letter? Your right then, you should return the iPhone immediately (if you do own it).
    07-23-2007 05:15 PM
  8. cmaier's Avatar
    Please explain this part of your quote then


    Why would I ever need to do this on an iPhone?
    To be fair, those letters on the side are very tiny, and when i click one i frequently miss. So I end up scrolling a couple of letters in either direction. Luckily I only have a few hundred contacts total, but if I had thousands, that could still be a lot of contacts. Luckily the "flick gesture" works well enough that you'd have to have a lot of contacts before it became too horrendous. It would be pretty sweet to be able to launch the keyboard and type a few letters of the name. It would also be nice to be able to type a few digits of a phone number in the phone application and have it find who you meant. It would also be nice if people's photos showed up next to their speed dial entries. Many things would be nice. But I digress.

    Search would also be pretty sweet. Search is coming, however (I claim).
    07-23-2007 05:18 PM
  9. braj's Avatar
    So your trying to tell me you have thousands of people in your contacts list whose name is starting with the same letter? Your right then, you should return the iPhone immediately (if you do own it).
    I'm saying that some letters have more contacts than others. Some people have huge contact lists. I personally don't, but still I like to sort by categories, I have business contacts, personal contacts, recreational contacts, family contacts etc. Some options for the user would be nice. Apologist arguing like yours is against the consumer's interest, why is it a good thing to have no way to sort beyond letter? You think less is more in every instance? Why are you defending this?

    One question (and this would make Apple's implementation easier to live with): does the iPhone find a contact when you select 'M' for example based on first, last, and company? If so this is a little better. Sometimes I may forget the contact's name I need to call but remember their company. Does it do this? It would be better of course to be able to see all the contacts that belong to a certain group/organization though, so you can email easier, or place a conference call.
    07-23-2007 05:23 PM
  10. mobileman's Avatar
    To be fair, those letters on the side are very tiny, and when i click one i frequently miss. So I end up scrolling a couple of letters in either direction. Luckily I only have a few hundred contacts total, but if I had thousands, that could still be a lot of contacts. Luckily the "flick gesture" works well enough that you'd have to have a lot of contacts before it became too horrendous. It would be pretty sweet to be able to launch the keyboard and type a few letters of the name. It would also be nice to be able to type a few digits of a phone number in the phone application and have it find who you meant. It would also be nice if people's photos showed up next to their speed dial entries. Many things would be nice. But I digress.

    Search would also be pretty sweet. Search is coming, however (I claim).
    Agreed, letters are small, but I have gotten pretty accurate with them. Not having the keyboard pop up in contact search mode is kind of strange, but I guess I dont have enough contacts where it bothers me to much. As of today I have 574 contacts.

    I cant imagine though how on a windows mobile device (except the treo) it would be much easier. You have to slide out the keyboard and rotate the device before you can start typing.
    07-23-2007 05:26 PM
  11. mobileman's Avatar
    Apologist arguing like yours is against the consumer's interest, why is it a good thing to have no way to sort beyond letter? You think less is more in every instance? Why are you defending this?
    Wait a second....why if anybody here has an opinion that doesnt agree with a negative iPhone comment get labled as an "Apologist". Could it possibly be that the something that you find as a problem with the iPhone, other people might not?

    FOR MY NEEDS, the sorting is just fine. If I had alot more contacts, I can see where a popup keyboard would help. I don't though, so it's no big deal to me. Don't ever assume that everybody is going to agree with your opinion.
    07-23-2007 05:30 PM
  12. braj's Avatar
    I cant imagine though howon a windows mobile device (except the treo) it would be much easier. You have to slide out the keyboard and rotate the device before you can start typing.
    Don't a lot of WM devices have hard keyboards? Blackjacks, Qs, etc? How does this work on a Blackberry, or a Nokia? In fact, it seems hard to find a phonebook on most phones that is as cumbersome as the iPhone's method.
    07-23-2007 05:34 PM
  13. mobileman's Avatar
    Don't a lot of WM devices have hard keyboards? Blackjacks, Qs, etc? How does this work on a Blackberry, or a Nokia? In fact, it seems hard to find a phonebook on most phones that is as cumbersome as the iPhone's method.

    Blackjacks, and the Q is a Windows Smartphone device. No offense to any smartphone users here but YUCK. The blackberry you can start typing on the exposed keyboard to bring up the contact.

    Most Windows Mobile devices (not smartphone edition) do not have exposed keyboards. I would argue that its not really easier to find a contact on one of these.
    07-23-2007 05:38 PM
  14. cmaier's Avatar
    I'm saying that some letters have more contacts than others. Some people have huge contact lists. I personally don't, but still I like to sort by categories, I have business contacts, personal contacts, recreational contacts, family contacts etc. Some options for the user would be nice. Apologist arguing like yours is against the consumer's interest, why is it a good thing to have no way to sort beyond letter? You think less is more in every instance? Why are you defending this?

    One question (and this would make Apple's implementation easier to live with): does the iPhone find a contact when you select 'M' for example based on first, last, and company? If so this is a little better. Sometimes I may forget the contact's name I need to call but remember their company. Does it do this? It would be better of course to be able to see all the contacts that belong to a certain group/organization though, so you can email easier, or place a conference call.
    It seems to only go by the last name or the "file as" or something. For instance, if I click on "C" i get "Camera 7 Theater" and "Joe C-----" but not "Charles -----."

    One nice touch I just noticed - if you press and HOLD the letters on the side, the whole bar highlights, and you can drag your fingers up and down to zip from letter to letter super-quickly. You can go from first entry to last entry with one finger motion. Even better, it has a quantum effect built in, so if you move slowly, it sort of "snaps" from letter to letter, so you don't have to worry about moving too far and skipping past the letter you intended.

    But it sucks that if i remember someone's first name and not last, I can't easily get to it without search. (If I only remember their company, chances are I have company in the "file as" field, anyway).
    07-23-2007 05:38 PM
  15. braj's Avatar
    Wait a second....why if anybody here has an opinion that doesnt agree with a negative iPhone comment get labled as an "Apologist". Could it possibly be that the something that you find as a problem with the iPhone, other people might not?

    FOR MY NEEDS, the sorting is just fine. If I had alot more contacts, I can see where a popup keyboard would help. I don't though, so it's no big deal to me. Don't ever assume that everybody is going to agree with your opinion.
    OK, for your needs it works fine. Sorry if I offended you, but by making those statements you seem to be saying a more robust way of finding contacts wasn't necessary. "So your trying to tell me..." That sort of language makes it sound that if people aren't doing it your way they must be insane. "you should return the iPhone immediately (if you do own it)." Come on now.
    07-23-2007 05:40 PM
  16. surur's Avatar
    I cant imagine though how on a windows mobile device (except the treo) it would be much easier. You have to slide out the keyboard and rotate the device before you can start typing.
    The Treo is not the only device with an exposed keyboard, and the device has auto-complete from contacts in many fields, e.g. the To: fields in the e-mail address.

    Surur
    07-23-2007 05:41 PM
  17. braj's Avatar
    Blackjacks, and the Q is a Windows Smartphone device. No offense to any smartphone users here but YUCK. The blackberry you can start typing on the exposed keyboard to bring up the contact.

    Most Windows Mobile devices (not smartphone edition) do not have exposed keyboards. I would argue that its not really easier to find a contact on one of these.
    But then what's the point in bringing that up then? It's like saying my kid isn't ugly because your kid is uglier.
    07-23-2007 05:43 PM
  18. cmaier's Avatar
    The Treo is not the only device with an exposed keyboard, and the device has auto-complete from contacts in many fields, e.g. the To: fields in the e-mail address.

    Surur
    FWIW, iphone does autocomplete in To: fields of emails and SMS messages. But not when dialing. (That sort of inconsistency drives me nuts). If dialing worked like sending an sms (top line is a text box, bottom third is switchable from numeric to alphabetic keypad, and, as you type, matches appear in-between them) it would be pretty sweet. (Note, too, that it searches by first or last name in sms or email auto-fill, but not in dialing when you use the alphabetic bar on the right side).
    07-23-2007 05:53 PM
  19. braj's Avatar
    Wait a second....why if anybody here has an opinion that doesnt agree with a negative iPhone comment get labled as an "Apologist".
    Hey, you wait a second! I take back my apology! How was my comment in any way a negative iPhone comment? I'm factually discussion the features and you are throwing out apologistic fanboy nonsense, where any statement that doesn't glorify the iPhone is called 'negative'

    (I hope you understand my sense of humor, I'm not really bashing you. Though you are wrong )
    07-23-2007 05:56 PM
  20. surur's Avatar
    FWIW, iphone does autocomplete in To: fields of emails and SMS messages. But not when dialing. (That sort of inconsistency drives me nuts). If dialing worked like sending an sms (top line is a text box, bottom third is switchable from numeric to alphabetic keypad, and, as you type, matches appear in-between them) it would be pretty sweet. (Note, too, that it searches by first or last name in sms or email auto-fill, but not in dialing when you use the alphabetic bar on the right side).
    I'm sure all those little things will be patched in time. I'm more concerned about the things that appear to go against Apple's paradigms, by making the device more complicated, like third party apps.

    Surur
    07-23-2007 05:59 PM
  21. braj's Avatar
    I think they are going to have to allow 3rd party apps of face being hacked into having them anyway.
    07-23-2007 06:05 PM
  22. mobileman's Avatar
    The Treo is not the only device with an exposed keyboard, and the device has auto-complete from contacts in many fields, e.g. the To: fields in the e-mail address.

    Surur
    not that it matters, but I can't think of another commercially avaible device in the U.S. With an exposed keyboard.
    07-23-2007 06:13 PM
  23. cmaier's Avatar
    I'm sure all those little things will be patched in time. I'm more concerned about the things that appear to go against Apple's paradigms, by making the device more complicated, like third party apps.

    Surur
    I'm willing to bet there will be third party apps, but, sadly, that they will follow the ipod model and only allow a small handful of developers to produce the software and only allow it to be available on itunes.

    If they add flash, allow adding icons to the "home screen" that link to urls, and add something like google gears, I'll be happy enough. If they add more links to internal databases from web applications, even better.

    I've been coding iphone webapps for a couple of weeks, and a lot is possible, but if they would just make a few changes some really nice stuff could be done. If an application can be run without network connectivity and could store its data locally and interact with other iphone apps (and if we could hide the damned toolbar) the end user wouldn't know the difference between a native os-x app and a web app. I do think they will make some of these changes as well.

    I'd still prefer a real sdk ala palm or wm.
    07-23-2007 06:23 PM
  24. surur's Avatar
    not that it matters, but I can't think of another commercially avaible device in the U.S. With an exposed keyboard.
    HP Ipaq 6925

    http://www.wireless.att.com/business...equestid=47720

    Surur
    07-23-2007 06:25 PM
  25. bruckwine's Avatar
    Even as a demonstration-release, MS's Deepfish is not too far off from what Safari can do.

    Demo

    I've been using it for months now and even though it's just a "technology preview" (not even an alpha or beta for release) it works quite well. There is a security issue with server-side handling, so that is one thing that will need to be considered.
    Never heard of this....will have to get up to date!
    07-23-2007 06:27 PM
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