1. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I think you guys have wandered way of the point of the thread, which is to show people the iPhone ain't all that. It has bugs, and it has awkward interfaces in many areas, and many people buy one and discover it cant do what they expect it to do.

    I really dont know what you guys are debating here.

    Surur
    Agreed.
    07-19-2007 04:29 PM
  2. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Please tell us about this importance for business, Mikec.
    Communication with co-workers/staff/etc. We aren't always at the desk, and need quick info; less intrusive than phone call, faster than email.
    07-19-2007 04:30 PM
  3. braj's Avatar
    Please tell us about this importance for business, Mikec.
    I'm REQUIRED to be on chat in Yahoo and MSN throughout my day. Luckily I don't also need to use AIM anymore. Go work in IT with Agile development and you'll see lots of people use chat extensively.
    07-19-2007 04:33 PM
  4. braj's Avatar
    I'd also rather use chat than talk with a team member overseas that barely can speak oral English.
    07-19-2007 04:34 PM
  5. braj's Avatar
    Sales figures are not imagination. To determine what the market wants is simple....you look at what sells....and then you look at what's not out there that people might want. Out of 150 million phones sold in the US, only 6% of them bought smartphones. To say that more needed them but didn't buy them is ridiculous. If they are still alive and still employed then I guess they really didn't "need" them after all.
    Sales figures do not equal customer satisfaction or what percentage of the features a user desires from a product before they buy it. People make compromises all the time when they buy stuff. You're full of BS there bro if you think otherwise.
    07-19-2007 04:38 PM
  6. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    Probably true, but meaningless. First, the iPhone is brand new, the Treo not so. "New" alsmost always outsells old, at first. People who have been waiting for it for 6 months can now all buy it in a very short time period. People who wanted a Treo during the last 6 months just bought one.
    Aside from that, so what? McDonalds sells a lot more hamburgers than Lowry's sells Prime Rib. I suppose that proves the burger is better?
    Better for what ?

    I have 10 minutes to sneak in lunch before my next meeting
    I wanna impress a client
    I wanna take out my wife
    I have 13 kids who just won a little elague game, where do I take em

    Many Treo "fanboys" have denied the Treo's flaws since day one. It appears most iPhone "fanboys" have the same myopia regarding their plaything.
    The opposite is also true. Treo fans will not accept the huge paradign shift the iPhone's introduction has caused and will not accept that their beloved UI has been topped and will apparently not accept the fact that not even they use all the Treos features on a day to day or even weekly basis. The last time I used the web to look up something on my Treo I was in a tent. If I am anywhere close to electricity, I want a land line and full KB / screen. And it's not the loading time I find frustrating, it's the scrolling.

    The loyal Treo base, especially those who still prefer the POS version over the WM version, seem to find it easy to excuse the list of what WM can do that they can't, harping on the wonderful UI (and I don't disagree here) but now all of a sudden seem to think the iPhone's superior UI is not so significant and wanna make their list.

    I think the release date of Palm's new Linux UI just slipped a bit. I think it would be a mistake to release it unless it can be favorably compared with the iPhone's. The treo is kinda stuck. In the business marketplace it will always be compared against the BB yardstick and in the consumer market it will now be compared using the iPhone yardstick. Palm and everybody else in the game have quite a challenge.

    The Treo rocked the world when it was introduced and we all jumped on board. Tho I'm not ready to get wet with apple juice, it's more than obvious to me the iPhone has made a bigger splash today with regard to bringing the smartphone into the mindset of new customers than the Treo did back then.
    07-19-2007 04:40 PM
  7. oalvarez's Avatar
    Communication with co-workers/staff/etc. We aren't always at the desk, and need quick info; less intrusive than phone call, faster than email.

    excellent! this is why you carry the device that you do. i'm sure people can deal with that.
    07-19-2007 04:47 PM
  8. marcol's Avatar
    I think you guys have wandered way of the point of the thread, which is to show people the iPhone ain't all that.
    It's wandered a bit but then it is 50 plus pages. My last post was saying, to put it in the terms you used, that actually for me the iPhone is 'all that', or at least pretty darn close. It's contrary to your opinion but I think that's ok in a discussion forum.
    07-19-2007 05:16 PM
  9. marcol's Avatar
    The Treo rocked the world when it was introduced and we all jumped on board. Tho I'm not ready to get wet with apple juice, it's more than obvious to me the iPhone has made a bigger splash today with regard to bringing the smartphone into the mindset of new customers than the Treo did back then.
    I think Ars Technica said it rather well:

    Also, let's be honest here. It's clear to us that the iPhone wasn't meant, at the outset anyway, as a smartphone for smartphone people (who typically end up being business people). Instead, the iPhone was meant as a smartphone for everyone else: average people who, until now, had no reason or motivation to get a BlackBerry or something similar that may have been more difficult to use and had way too many features for the average phone user. But the concept of the iPhone doesn't just appeal to average users; it appeals to everyone, including business users. And some would even say that business usage patterns are really at the forefront of what the iPhone should be doing anyway: push e-mail, network independence (you don't have to chose a carrier based on your phone), and custom apps.
    http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardw...-review.ars/15

    The simplicity of the UI and experience of using the device appeal to many who've not used a smartphone before, but those same features also appeal to at least a subset of those who have. Clearly it's not for everyone, but then I'd imagine no one device ever will be.
    07-19-2007 05:25 PM
  10. braj's Avatar
    network independence (you don't have to chose a carrier based on your phone)
    Unfortunately the iPhone doesn't do that. Instead they sell a phone without subsidy locked to a carrier (you can't even unlock it if you so desire). That kind of sucks IMO. You have absolutely no choice in carrier if you choose the iPhone.
    07-19-2007 05:30 PM
  11. surur's Avatar
    Unfortunately the iPhone doesn't do that. Instead they sell a phone without subsidy locked to a carrier (you can't even unlock it if you so desire). That kind of sucks IMO. You have absolutely no choice in carrier if you choose the iPhone.
    Thats what "you dont have to chose.." means. You know, taking away the terrible tyranny of choice. Iphone users hate that.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 05:38 PM
  12. oalvarez's Avatar
    ^ that is correct. any other earth shattering information you would like to share with us?
    07-19-2007 05:39 PM
  13. surur's Avatar
    ^ that is correct. any other earth shattering information you would like to share with us?
    There was an earth quake in Japan recently....

    Surur
    07-19-2007 05:46 PM
  14. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    Exactly. Will Jack's argument fall apart when the iPhone gets its much vaunted upgrade to include all the smartphone features its missing?
    That's consistent logic....well consistently illogical. Since you don't like long posts containing a series of facts, let's just cover one feature from your "big 3".

    Ringtones:

    User consider's iPhone purchase and decides that he really don't give a **** about ringtones so he buys an iPhone anyway. Apple does an an upgrade which provides ringtones.

    Question: (I am identifying it now in bold so you won't have to ask where it is) If he didn't care about this missing feature, ringtones, before why would he care about it being later provided ?

    Responses to this post not including an answer to the above question shall be deemed non responsive.

    Surur: "That deli sux cause you don't get free pickles with a sandwhich"

    Jack: "I don't like pickles and this deli has better coldcuts, better bread and I get my sandwich in half the time."

    Surur: "Look, your deli is now giving out free pickes, so you must wanna go to my deli now"

    Jack: "No, I still don't care whether or not I get a pickle and I still get better coldcuts, better bread and wait half the time."
    07-19-2007 05:51 PM
  15. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    Unfortunately the iPhone doesn't do that. Instead they sell a phone without subsidy locked to a carrier (you can't even unlock it if you so desire). That kind of sucks IMO. You have absolutely no choice in carrier if you choose the iPhone.
    You mean just like the 700p and just about all the other Treos when it was introduced. There is a GSM model with 3G and there is a CDMA model, tho I did read something about the latter possible being held up over a patent dispute with Qualcomm or someone.
    07-19-2007 05:54 PM
  16. braj's Avatar
    You mean just like the 700p and just about all the other Treos when it was introduced. There is a GSM model with 3G and there is a CDMA model, tho I did read something about the latter possible being held up over a patent dispute with Qualcomm or someone.
    You can unlock a GSM Treo and use it with any GSM SIM card. The iPhone is totally locked to AT&T with absolutely no other choice.
    07-19-2007 05:58 PM
  17. CountBuggula's Avatar
    That's consistent logic....well consistently illogical. Since you don't like long posts containing a series of facts, let's just cover one feature from your "big 3".

    Ringtones:

    User consider's iPhone purchase and decides that he really don't give a **** about ringtones so he buys an iPhone anyway. Apple does an an upgrade which provides ringtones.

    Question: (I am identifying it now in bold so you won't have to ask where it is) If he didn't care about this missing feature, ringtones, before why would he care about it being later provided ?

    Responses to this post not including an answer to the above question shall be deemed non responsive.

    Surur: "That deli sux cause you don't get free pickles with a sandwhich"

    Jack: "I don't like pickles and this deli has better coldcuts, better bread and I get my sandwich in half the time."

    Surur: "Look, your deli is now giving out free pickes, so you must wanna go to my deli now"

    Jack: "No, I still don't care whether or not I get a pickle and I still get better coldcuts, better bread and wait half the time."
    You're still just arguing that you, along with a large percentage of the US population don't want or need a Smartphone, but with WAY more words. We know already. The smartphone market is small (compared to all the cellphones on the market) but growing very quickly. Apple wants a piece of that smartphone pie so sparks a media frenzy claiming their new device is better than all the smartphones out there, but doesn't actually make a smartphone, they just make a very pretty feature phone. So yeah, there's probably a few of those ex-treo users who never really liked pickles and love coldcuts, so they jump ship. The overlap is pretty small though, as the rest of those who actually need a smartphone that can run 3rd party apps will chose to ignore the iPhone.
    07-19-2007 06:01 PM
  18. surur's Avatar
    Question: (I am identifying it now in bold so you won't have to ask where it is) If he didn't care about this missing feature, ringtones, before why would he care about it being later provided ?
    Faith in Apple Jack, faith in Apple. Everyone is waiting for the update that will fix all the iPhone's (many) ills. And because its Apple they know, deep in their hearts, that it will come. Their child-like belief is endearing really.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 06:16 PM
  19. braj's Avatar
    I don't think anyone is ignoring the iPhone, just look at this thread. Hopefully the end result of the iPhone launch is the market delivers some truly excellent next-gen smartphones. If this ends up being Palm, Apple, Nokia or HTC is really irrelevant to me personally. I just want some good tech and freedom to choose what I do with my device.
    07-19-2007 06:18 PM
  20. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    The simplicity of the UI and experience of using the device appeal to many who've not used a smartphone before, but those same features also appeal to at least a subset of those who have. Clearly it's not for everyone, but then I'd imagine no one device ever will be.
    I had said something similar earlier. If you are gonna enter a market, ya gotta figure apple was thinking where can I make the biggest splash....and where can I get a big fat return to fund future R & D.

    If it was me, my first model would go right where apple went.....the non business user who would use many of the features of a smartphone but hadn't so far because:

    1. Too difficult to set up.
    2. Too cumbersome to use.
    3. Web browsing was a kludge.
    4. Too complicated and unstable

    The iPhone we have seen so far goes after that market. Next they should wanna go for the mass market, impressing wall street and gaining mindshare. This will require a device with no more than a $300 price tag. The iPhone nano or whatever it will be called that we hearing about now goes after that market. With a strong foothold in those markets, it can turn it's attention to the until now miniscule "business smartphone" market ... that 6% of 2006 total sales.

    The income from the 1st two entries could pay for the R & D which the time delay had permitted them to develop and refine beyond anything we have seen to date. They have to be thinking that by then, they will be in position to do what Palm and MS haven't done......provide a stable, uncomplicated, intuitive UI based unit with no "kludge" like experiences.

    Loot at the desktop space. Boot camp allows one to install windows on an apple desktop. Why not an Apple UI on top of WM6 ? Why not Bootcamp for the iPhone ? Why not take a shot at their own full featured mobile OS ?

    Well I'll answer that .... remember the smartphone market is still only 6%. Yes 6% of people have decided that they like running programs on a 2" screen. That means 94% have decided that they do not or can't be bothered with. I have to wonder whether apple wants to invest that much T & E in that market unless it shows signs of future growth. If they were to take 15% of that, is 1% of the market enough to invest the time and money to be a contender ? Or is the consumer / entertainment sector their best shot ? MS has the business lead in with Windows, Exchange and Office being dominant. Apple dominates with iTunes. So in the end, I don't know that it makes sense just yet for apple to pursue the business market.

    But at the very least, us Treo and other business smartphone users will benefit as MS, palm and everyone else are scrambling to adapt to the paradigm shift caused by Apple's web experience. Everyone expected Apple to come up with a wonderful UI and they did. But what they did with their web experience just wraps the "kludge" label around everything else.
    07-19-2007 06:28 PM
  21. sxtg's Avatar
    Please tell us about this importance for business, Mikec.
    I use it all the time for business. Its an unintrusive way for my office to communicate with me while I am on appts in the field.
    07-19-2007 06:28 PM
  22. oalvarez's Avatar
    as the rest of those who actually need a smartphone that can run 3rd party apps will chose to ignore the iPhone.
    now actually try to do as you say! ignore it so all of this can be put to rest.
    07-19-2007 06:28 PM
  23. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    Faith in Apple Jack, faith in Apple. Everyone is waiting for the update that will fix all the iPhone's (many) ills. And because its Apple they know, deep in their hearts, that it will come. Their child-like belief is endearing really.
    True to form, a non repsonsive response. Answer the question. I went through all the trouble to make it easy by putting it in bold and all.
    07-19-2007 06:29 PM
  24. oalvarez's Avatar
    I use it all the time for business. Its an unintrusive way for my office to communicate with me while I am on appts in the field.
    i know, i know.....email is no longer a preferred method of business communication. it's all about sms/mms/chat, right?
    07-19-2007 06:30 PM
  25. oalvarez's Avatar
    Hey Surur, quick question: Does WM have any ills? If so, how have they remedied them? Or are they still trying to figure out how to?
    07-19-2007 06:32 PM
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