1. surur's Avatar
    I just knew you'd say that! You're right of course. It's important to Canalys, NPD and the like. It's important to headline writers and thus probably important to manufacturers too. What I was trying to express was that however we categorise it doesn't actually affect the device in your hand, doesn't affect what it can do, doesn't affect your experience of your device. In the end, as a user first and foremost, I do think those things are the more important than any label you might apply.
    By my definition, it makes a big difference to what a device can do.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 02:59 PM
  2. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Shall include and include are not the same thing.

    Surur
    He's right Jack. Let's not get the lawyers involved... ;-)
    07-19-2007 03:01 PM
  3. surur's Avatar
    Sales figures are not imagination. To determine what the market wants is simple....you look at what sells....and then you look at what's not out there that people might want. Out of 150 million phones sold in the US, only 6% of them bought smartphones. To say that more needed them but didn't buy them is ridiculous. If they are still alive and still employed then I guess they really didn't "need" them after all.
    Jack, you do realize smartphones are growing faster than the dumb phone market, dont you?

    Surur
    07-19-2007 03:03 PM
  4. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Fair enough. Best bet might be if you and mikec step outside and the winner comes back and tells us who's right
    As much as you'd like it, I bet surur could come up with a concise agreement a lot faster than some of the tomes by Jack.

    I'm could care less if someone thinks the iPhone is a smartphone or not. Bottom line is that Apple positioned it as such.
    07-19-2007 03:06 PM
  5. marcol's Avatar
    Duplicate post
    07-19-2007 03:08 PM
  6. marcol's Avatar
    Again, I posted a correction to support virtual keyboard.

    "There are not virtual keyboards"

    http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/revie...l_Keyboard.php

    Opps...you've be pwned too.

    I already said the Nokia N-series are odd beasts, but I the general defn still fits.
    Ah yes, BT keyboard. Very clever Now if you can just prove to me that it works with N series devices I'll concede the point and accept the definition at least covers a majority of devices (the amended one that is).
    07-19-2007 03:10 PM
  7. marcol's Avatar
    As much as you'd like it, I bet surur could come up with a concise agreement a lot faster than some of the tomes by Jack.
    I think you and Surur disagree fairly fundamentally on the third-party app side of things so although he might be able to do it quickly and concisely, it would differ significantly from your definition. That's my point: there's no general agreement.
    07-19-2007 03:17 PM
  8. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Ah yes, BT keyboard. Very clever Now if you can just prove to me that it works with N series devices I'll concede the point and accept the definition at least covers a majority of devices (the amended one that is).
    Here's another one:

    http://www.howardforums.com/showthre...7&page=3&pp=15

    You can concede now.
    07-19-2007 03:18 PM
  9. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I think you and Surur disagree fairly fundamentally on the third-party app side of things so although he might be able to do it quickly and concisely, it would differ significantly from your definition. That's my point: there's no general agreement.
    I think we could work something out.

    General defn does not mean absolute.

    But a 80%+ majority is close enough for me.
    07-19-2007 03:19 PM
  10. marcol's Avatar
    Here's another one:

    http://www.howardforums.com/showthre...7&page=3&pp=15

    You can concede now.
    Ok. I concede that your *amended* definition now covers N series devices too.
    07-19-2007 03:34 PM
  11. oalvarez's Avatar
    Compromise. Say it's a Feature Phone.
    Who in god's name really cares what it is called?

    It is what it is, not what it isn't.
    07-19-2007 03:35 PM
  12. marcol's Avatar
    I think we could work something out.
    I'd like to see it.

    General defn does not mean absolute.

    But a 80%+ majority is close enough for me.
    Let's keep on topic here. Will it include the iPhone or not?
    07-19-2007 03:35 PM
  13. marcol's Avatar
    Who in god's name really cares what it is called?

    It is what it is, not what it isn't.
    While I agree (see above), you know we're just passing the time of day here. Nothing wrong with that I think.
    07-19-2007 03:37 PM
  14. oalvarez's Avatar
    By my definition, it makes a big difference to what a device can do.

    Surur
    who cares what it can do or can't? it only matters what you want it to do. if it doesn't do what you want, great, onto the next device.

    and the stupidity continues.
    07-19-2007 03:37 PM
  15. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    Now for people less swayed by marketing, can you list the features the IPhone has. AFAIK the list is pretty short.
    Why is length important ? I got a better idea....skip the spec list comparisons and arguments about whose is bigger and make a list of the things one needs to do and see if the device does everything on the list. My business user oriented list is short.

    Device must make calls (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Device must use BT headset (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Device must do POP e-mail (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Device must do web access (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Device must do voice dial (treo yes / iPhone no)
    Device must sync with puter (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Third party Apps (treo yes / iPhone no)
    Device must not make me jump thru hoops or use 2h to navigate(pos treo yes / wm treo no / iPhone insufficient experience)

    Tho the last is getting less and less important. Most of my 3rd party apps are utilities to make the Treo work acceptably. Another bunch are utilities for which I have not investigated whether there is an iPhone equivalent function like an alarm that wakes me up or turning the phone on automatically. I can't recall the last time I opened up anything outside those categories which has me questioning how important this will be in the future.

    I had some games on the treo but playing on the teeny screen got old real quick. I tried a few e-books but that also got old. Overzealous stewardesses and comfort have me back on the ole paper variety. And just because one can do something on a handheld, even tho its cool, doesn't mean it's the best way to do something. I used to respond to a lot of e-mails on my Treo, over time I found it just too damn cumbersome to thumbtype. Most of my e-mails are therefore answered by a phone call. Most of the rest will wait till I have a full size KB and screen. So yes I had a lot of reasons for convincing myself I "needed" a Treo.....and while some remain valid, some do not.

    Things I definitely don't care about

    WiFi - won't use
    Music / video - won't use
    Ringtones won't use - don't wanna be in room with anyone who does
    07-19-2007 03:41 PM
  16. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    I just asked my son for input

    His consumer oriented list is also short.....tho he wants to add numbers. Like me has the $20 AT&T MediaMax bundle (unlimited data , 200 text messages, MMS on per use basis disabled).

    Device must make calls (treo 8 / iPhone 8)
    Device must use BT headset (treo 7 / iPhone 6)
    Device must do POP e-mail (treo 6 / iPhone 9)
    Device must do web access (treo 4 / iPhone 9)
    Device must sync with puter (treo 8 / iPhone 9)
    Device must not require him to refer to manual (treo 4 / iPhone 9)
    Device must do text messaging (treo 6 / iPhone 7)
    Device must require little "fiddling time" (Treo 3 / iPhone 9)
    Device must play music / video (Treo 5 / iPhone 6)
    Device musts have adequate music storage (Treo 8 / iPhone 8)
    Device must sync w/ iTunes (Treo 0 / iPhone 9)
    Device must be GSM (Treo 650 / iPhone)
    07-19-2007 03:42 PM
  17. surur's Avatar
    Why is length important ? I got a better idea....skip the spec list comparisons and arguments about whose is bigger and make a list of the things one needs to do and see if the device does everything on the list.
    The point of having many features is meeting the needs of more people. I like A2DP for example, and would want that in any device I buy. Other people like MMS, chat etc.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 03:51 PM
  18. oalvarez's Avatar
    The point of having many features is meeting the needs of more people. I like A2DP for example, and would want that in any device I buy. Other people like MMS, chat etc.

    Surur
    if it doesn't have the features you're looking for, don't buy it! if it does, buy it!

    example: HobbesisReal needs his/her device to have certain capabilities. He/She uses every functional aspect of the device and adds more to it to meet his/her working needs. So he/she chooses a ppc device, in this case a Mogul...Great!

    i and others might not care for that device no matter what functionality it offers due to its slideout keyboard. "we" choose not to buy that device and we choose some other......Great!

    some choose the iPhone as their choice and not many understand why you and some of your cronies can't understand that.

    it's getting beyond silly and you know it.
    07-19-2007 03:59 PM
  19. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    it only matters what you want it to do.
    Apparently we haven't left the locker room yet and it's important whose is bigger.
    07-19-2007 04:01 PM
  20. marcol's Avatar
    Things I definitely don't care about

    WiFi - won't use
    Music / video - won't use
    Ringtones won't use - don't wanna be in room with anyone who does
    This is my over-simplified version: I used to carry a phone and a PDA and I swapped both for a Treo. I now carry a smartphone (an E61) and an iPod and I'd like to swap them both for an iPhone.

    The 'over simplification' relates to the fact that my current smartphone isn't just a phone plus a PDA anymore. That said, the iPhone covers *nearly* everything I need. Notable exceptions:

    1) PIM needs a bit of work. Especially adding to-dos (waiting for Leopard?)

    2) Personal navigation. Can't live without TomTom now, but I figure iPhone plus PND is still less devices than E61 plus iPod plus BT GPS. Also, the PND can mostly live in the car so I'm only carrying one device most of the time.

    Obviously in an E61 vs iPhone comparison there are plusses and minuses on both sides, but the iPod functionality is really the difference that's most important to me personally. Music on the E61 is simply unacceptable (poor quality sound, bad UI, stupid 'pop port' adapter, no iTunes integration, etc).

    3G is pretty much de rigueur of course, but that will come (within 12 months I should think).
    07-19-2007 04:05 PM
  21. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Why is length important ? I got a better idea....skip the spec list comparisons and arguments about whose is bigger and make a list of the things one needs to do and see if the device does everything on the list. My business user oriented list is short.

    Device must make calls (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Device must use BT headset (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Device must do POP e-mail (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Device must do web access (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Device must do voice dial (treo yes / iPhone no)
    Device must sync with puter (treo yes / iPhone yes)
    Third party Apps (treo yes / iPhone no)
    Device must not make me jump thru hoops or use 2h to navigate(pos treo yes / wm treo no / iPhone insufficient experience)

    Tho the last is getting less and less important. Most of my 3rd party apps are utilities to make the Treo work acceptably. Another bunch are utilities for which I have not investigated whether there is an iPhone equivalent function like an alarm that wakes me up or turning the phone on automatically. I can't recall the last time I opened up anything outside those categories which has me questioning how important this will be in the future.

    I had some games on the treo but playing on the teeny screen got old real quick. I tried a few e-books but that also got old. Overzealous stewardesses and comfort have me back on the ole paper variety. And just because one can do something on a handheld, even tho its cool, doesn't mean it's the best way to do something. I used to respond to a lot of e-mails on my Treo, over time I found it just too damn cumbersome to thumbtype. Most of my e-mails are therefore answered by a phone call. Most of the rest will wait till I have a full size KB and screen. So yes I had a lot of reasons for convincing myself I "needed" a Treo.....and while some remain valid, some do not.

    Things I definitely don't care about

    WiFi - won't use
    Music / video - won't use
    Ringtones won't use - don't wanna be in room with anyone who does
    Jack,

    You missed chat/instant messaging. Important for businees.
    07-19-2007 04:05 PM
  22. oalvarez's Avatar
    I hear you, Jack....i've said just about everything you have at some earlier point in time, responses were all the same. It all goes back to "Jobs saying it is a smartphone" (as they like to say) and that's why they're here spouting the ridiculousness that they do.

    Throw logic out the window when discussing this stuff with some of these folk. Do like I did....leave for a few days and you'll notice that they have nothing to say.
    07-19-2007 04:08 PM
  23. surur's Avatar
    I think you guys have wandered way of the point of the thread, which is to show people the iPhone ain't all that. It has bugs, and it has awkward interfaces in many areas, and many people buy one and discover it cant do what they expect it to do.

    I really dont know what you guys are debating here.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 04:11 PM
  24. oalvarez's Avatar
    Jack,

    You missed chat/instant messaging. Important for businees.
    Please tell us about this importance for business, Mikec.
    07-19-2007 04:13 PM
  25. surur's Avatar
    Do like I did....leave for a few days and you'll notice that they have nothing to say.
    Yes, the thread would be a lot shorter without Jack's posts.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 04:14 PM
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