1. CountBuggula's Avatar
    This doesn't even make any sense. By the criteria you cite the iPhone isn't a smartphone. It doesn't have third party apps unless you count web apps or Google maps and it can't edit Microsoft Offices files (presuming that's what you mean by 'office automation documents'). Yet you conclude it is a smartphone. Are you drunk?*

    *Disclaimer: I'm on my second glass
    Oh good I'm not the only one who noticed that. I wonder if he meant to say isn't?

    edit: Mikec posted clarification while I wrote this. I still don't buy the Web2.0 apps argument. Fancy web sites do not an application make. Especially when on an airplane.
    07-19-2007 02:22 PM
  2. marcol's Avatar
    I did not exclude them; they have an OS, just like WM.
    You excluded all devices without a QWERTY.

    I would agree they are a odd beast, with many lacking keyboards.
    All N series devices lack a QWERTY keyboard.

    But they support virtual ones...maybe that should have been my clarification.
    Now you're just talking nonsense. There are no virtual keyboards, not least for the very good reason that the OS (S60) doesn't support touchscreens.

    EDIT: I've taken about out the bit about Mike being drunk. A bit too pot, kettle, black
    07-19-2007 02:25 PM
  3. marcol's Avatar
    Before you shoot reply to a comment, you should read it.

    I said "read or edit", not "read and edit"
    Fair point. Sorry. I missed the 'or'.

    I stand by the keyboard stuff.
    07-19-2007 02:28 PM
  4. surur's Avatar
    Like Justice Potter Stewart, regarding smartphones, I know it when I see it, and the iPhone just ain't it. There are many more advanced devices, such as the Helio Ocean for example which are not considered smartphones.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 02:30 PM
  5. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    For some reason Jack is saying the iPhone has all the features a consumer needs. Here is just another example that this is not the case.
    Never said that, more misdirection. I said the missing features that were mentioned in the post I responded to are not high on consumers priority lists.

    Jack the iPhone lacks features even normal phones have, like MMS, Bluetooth OBEX, RINGTONES!!!
    Name any phone you want. I will post a list of features found in other phones that that unit doesn't have.

    MMS - Let's look at AT&T's most popular data plan.....hmmm doesn't have MMS in it.

    Ringtones - Oh yes a critical feature for all the "ooh look at me" people.

    No device has everything, the question is "is what I get outweighed by what I don't ?" And then question has been resoundingly answered especially by the people paying $167 to break their contracts with their previous carrier.

    http://www.oreillynet.com/windows/bl...he_iphone.html

    Background: I have been using a Treo for over a year. I like the treo, though I dont love it. The browser is only barely usable, the keyboard is barely usable (one feature they despeaately need is a switch to turn of key-repeat) but much of it is great.....The iPhone is, however: the best PDA Ive ever had, the best iPod Ive ever had and (nearly) the best phone Ive ever had. The more I use it the more I love it.

    Setting it all up, registering it and getting my new cell number; soup to nuts took under 10 minutes. ....the on-board keyboard is far better than the physical keyboard offered on the Treo; and the self-correcting software is fantastic......The question of whether it is a problem not having a physical keyboard is more than answered: no problem.

    Email is by far the best Ive seen on a phone, with full graphics, links, etc. Truly impressive. I do wish they had more organization (storage folders, etc.) but I assume that will be in the next version, and it isnt a problem as I do all that on the desktop; on the iPhone I read and toss.
    The O'reilly site points here in giving its nod.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19444948...wsweek/page/0/

    -The iPhone is the rare convergence device where things actually converge.
    -Instead of going through the usual complicated contract signing and credit-vetting ceremony .....you simply buy the thing and go home.
    -Setup is a snap.
    -In short, e-mail looks more like youre working on a computer than a clunky phone.
    -Web-browsing is where the iPhone leaves competitors in the dust. It does the best job yet of compressing the World Wide Web on a palm-size device. Web pages you wouldnt dare go to on other phones are suddenly accessible,
    Ok now tell me, given what you just read, ya think this former Treo user is gonna bring it back and give al that up cause he didn't get ringtones ?

    He does bring up on issue that is a big one for me but alas wasn't immediately available for me when the Treo came out.....voice recognition / dialing. But again, I see a lot of Treos, I see very few who sprung for the $20 to get VoiceDial.
    07-19-2007 02:30 PM
  6. marcol's Avatar
    Still, it's a pretty good definition.
    You're welcome to your personal definition but really you can't claim it's 'de facto' if it excludes the N series.
    07-19-2007 02:32 PM
  7. marcol's Avatar
    Like Justice Potter Stewart, regarding smartphones, I know it when I see it, and the iPhone just ain't it. There are many more advanced devices, such as the Helio Ocean for example which are not considered smartphones.
    I know it when I see it, and I say it is.

    Where does that leave us?
    07-19-2007 02:33 PM
  8. surur's Avatar
    I know it when I see it, and I say it is.

    Where does that leave us?
    Making our own choices of course. Where else?

    Surur
    07-19-2007 02:36 PM
  9. marcol's Avatar
    Like Justice Potter Stewart, regarding smartphones, I know it when I see it, and the iPhone just ain't it. There are many more advanced devices, such as the Helio Ocean for example which are not considered smartphones.
    Just expand on that. In some ways the iPhone is clearly more advanced than the Treo 650 (a device I used for 18 months and for which I have great affection). Is the 650 not a smartphone or is it only advancement in the areas you choose that count in your definition?
    07-19-2007 02:37 PM
  10. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    [QUOTE=mikec;1312296]
    I gave you a definition that is fits. You chose to ignore that, and instead grab other sources to confirm you view.
    You asked why I used "Treo equivalent" instead of just saying "smartphones". I answered that the definition of smartphone was not universally accepted. You saad it was and you went out to grab web url's and in support of that you gave the Wikipedia definition .... a definition which we now both agree is flawed.

    How about my defintion. Please find ANYONE that make an rational argument against it.
    ]

    I thought your definition was pretty good, it closely resembles my own. But I dare not use it with Surur lurking as he'll be telling me that 250 million Nokia 40 series smartphones were sold.
    07-19-2007 02:37 PM
  11. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    "include, but not limited to..." does not mean what you think it means...

    Surur
    I write construction contracts and my "shall include, but not necessarily limited to's" have stood quite a few legal challenges.
    07-19-2007 02:39 PM
  12. surur's Avatar
    No device has everything, the question is "is what I get outweighed by what I don't ?"
    This is about the only sensible thing you have said so far. Of course this is how it works. And sometimes the things people want is pretty intangible, like having an i-Product.

    Now for people less swayed by marketing, can you list the features the IPhone has. AFAIK the list is pretty short.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 02:39 PM
  13. surur's Avatar
    I write construction contracts and my "shall include, but not necessarily limited to's" have stood quite a few legal challenges.
    Shall include and include are not the same thing.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 02:41 PM
  14. CountBuggula's Avatar
    I know it when I see it, and I say it is.

    Where does that leave us?
    Compromise. Say it's a Feature Phone.
    Feature phones do not typically have access to more advanced applications written in native code, such as Symbian.
    07-19-2007 02:41 PM
  15. marcol's Avatar
    Making our own choices of course. Where else?
    That's my point. You can do that with the term 'smartphone' because there's no generally agreed definition. You can't do that (at least not in the same way) with other terms, where the definition is agreed. If I say to you 'is this animal a chicken?' we'd probably agree on the answer because we have a very similar notion of what a chicken is. Ask people on this board if the iPhone is a smartphone and you'll get both yes and no answers. You say it is, MikeC says it isn't etc.
    07-19-2007 02:44 PM
  16. surur's Avatar
    Just expand on that. In some ways the iPhone is clearly more advanced than the Treo 650 (a device I used for 18 months and for which I have great affection). Is the 650 not a smartphone or is it only advancement in the areas you choose that count in your definition?
    My definition include 3rd party apps with full access to the hardware, also called native apps.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 02:46 PM
  17. marcol's Avatar
    Compromise. Say it's a Feature Phone.
    To honest, I think the term 'iPhone' is good enough for all practical purposes. As I think Jack said before 'it is what is'. This categorisation stuff really isn't very important.
    07-19-2007 02:47 PM
  18. surur's Avatar
    To honest, I think the term 'iPhone' is good enough for all practical purposes. As I think Jack said before 'it is what is'. This categorisation stuff really isn't very important.
    It is important if you want to start comparing things.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 02:49 PM
  19. marcol's Avatar
    My definition include 3rd party apps with full access to the hardware, also called native apps.
    Fair enough. Best bet might be if you and mikec step outside and the winner comes back and tells us who's right
    07-19-2007 02:49 PM
  20. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Oh good I'm not the only one who noticed that. I wonder if he meant to say isn't?

    edit: Mikec posted clarification while I wrote this. I still don't buy the Web2.0 apps argument. Fancy web sites do not an application make. Especially when on an airplane.
    I agree with the web 2.0 commnet, but I just talking Apple's definition...
    07-19-2007 02:53 PM
  21. marcol's Avatar
    It is important if you want to start comparing things.
    I just knew you'd say that! You're right of course. It's important to Canalys, NPD and the like. It's important to headline writers and thus probably important to manufacturers too. What I was trying to express was that however we categorise it doesn't actually affect the device in your hand, doesn't affect what it can do, doesn't affect your experience of your device. In the end, as a user first and foremost, I do think those things are the more important than any label you might apply.
    07-19-2007 02:55 PM
  22. mikec#IM's Avatar
    You excluded all devices without a QWERTY.


    All N series devices lack a QWERTY keyboard.


    Now you're just talking nonsense. There are no virtual keyboards, not least for the very good reason that the OS (S60) doesn't support touchscreens.

    EDIT: I've taken about out the bit about Mike being drunk. A bit too pot, kettle, black
    Again, I posted a correction to support virtual keyboard.

    "There are not virtual keyboards"

    http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/revie...l_Keyboard.php

    Opps...you've be pwned too.

    I already said the Nokia N-series are odd beasts, but I the general defn still fits.
    07-19-2007 02:56 PM
  23. mikec#IM's Avatar
    You're welcome to your personal definition but really you can't claim it's 'de facto' if it excludes the N series.
    I did not claim defacto, and have address the n-series many time.

    Keep drinking....
    07-19-2007 02:58 PM
  24. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    The bottom line is that saying just because they shelled out the bucks means it has what 99% of people need is bogus and not based on anything but Jack's imagination. Are most happy about the purchase? I'm sure they are. Do many want to see more and better features? Of course.
    Sales figures are not imagination. To determine what the market wants is simple....you look at what sells....and then you look at what's not out there that people might want. Out of 150 million phones sold in the US, only 6% of them bought smartphones. To say that more needed them but didn't buy them is ridiculous. If they are still alive and still employed then I guess they really didn't "need" them after all.
    07-19-2007 02:58 PM
  25. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I know it when I see it, and I say it is.

    Where does that leave us?
    it leaves us with my defn :-)
    07-19-2007 02:58 PM
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