1. volwrath's Avatar
    When you show me it's screen rotating, viewing full size web pages, not stripped down mobile versions without scrolling etc etc, we can talk again.

    ***Huge Snip ***
    If one could win a discussion based on longevity of posts, you would be a shoo-in

    Frankly the iPhone has been out for three weeks. For you to make the claim that it does everything that 99% of people need including ex-treo owners is hardly a logical argument. Give the new iPhone owners time to get over their euphoria, and about 3-4 months I think the shine may be off. Frankly alot of my casual (non-tech) friends use MMS. I know they would be disappointed with the lack of MMS as well as the lackluster camera in the iPhone. (dont get me wrong, the treo camera sucks horribly) They also have custom ringers, although i suspect apple will fix that soon. Granted they dont need the push email as my 700WX has, but they also would rather have a decently formatted mobile web page on 3G vs a full webpage that takes 50 secs to load on the iphone.

    But you have to admit with the 2G iPhone comes out with 3G and retails for $300 in 6-8 months you Appletons are going to be pissed...
    07-19-2007 10:34 AM
  2. mikec#IM's Avatar
    When you show me it's screen rotating, viewing full size web pages, not stripped down mobile versions without scrolling etc etc, we can talk again.



    No that point is immaterial. Apple marketing is the easiest job in the world cause their products sell themselves. The iPod didn't become the 1200 pound gorilla because of marketing. It got that way by having:

    The best UI
    Avoiding a plethora of features and adhering to the KISS principle
    High product quality

    The point is you buy a tool for the job you want to do. It's senseless to burden yourself with the complexity and instability of a "full featured device" when you don't need those features. Unless of course your main purchase criteria is "Look how cool I am, my device can do this".



    Yeah it doesn't have any of the features 99% of the population doesn't need or want.

    Again, the point for the last time is that these overabundant, feature laden phones that are so overstuffed into their little packages that they require excessive effort to use and maintain. Again, the point is that most people don't want or need these features. To you and the rest of our minuscule user segement who use these things, these may be important features......to most of the world, they are just "clutter" that exists at the detriment of stability and simplicity.

    Check out the reviews of the iPhone by ex Treo users. The seems to be a pretty consistent theme. "It does what it does better by leaps and bounds than my Treo and what it doesn't do, I ain't missin." Me personally, I'd miss some of the things, so I keepin my Treo. I recognize that my handheld needs, like my vehicle needs, put me in a very small minority of the population.

    If you want to "get it" go hold one in your hand. Stop looking at feature lists an actually use it. Upon receiving my Treo, I read the 254 page user manual and spent the better part of two days setting it up. I installed Crash, PowerRun and all the other utilities "necessary" to make it work adequately and was effectively using the device 3 or 4 days later.

    Iphone users are using the device in the car on the way home from the store. They don't need to open the manual except as an occasional reference. That is what sells. I'd post the three ex-Treo user reviews I have read on the iPhone but why bother. You won't get the point. It's not what the iPhone doesn't have, it's that to most users these "missing features" are just "clutter".

    Even PalmInfo's review, hardly unbiased came down to a 5 to 5 tie until they got to the price category which was the deciding factor. Treonauts calls the iPhone "the new benchmark that others will have to beat in the consumer smartphone space."

    Lotta stuff claimed about the iPhone has also turned out to be false.....like the purported 400 battery cycle life. <annoying buzzer>. Not true.....after 400 cycles the battery merely drop to 80% capacity.

    A device is more than it's components. It's the design. I mountain bike. Things like component weight, shock design, gear ratios are all listed on the spec page are all significant. But what is far more significant is how well they are packaged and function together. Is 6 gear sprockets better than 5 sure, is 3 front sprocket rings better than 2, sure. Is a bike with 3 / 6 better than one with 2/5 ....er....on paper. But a poor gear shifter can easily render that advantage a detriment. Poor geometry which doesn't allow the most efficient application of pedal forces can kill many "spec advantages". And gadget improvement one adds to increase the amount of force applied to the wheel is insignificant if the rear shock doesn't keep the wheel on the ground. The increased weight of a large shock with 6 inch travel is a detriment to a cross country racer who gets no benefit over a 3-4" travel shock and the so missing the "big drop" capability feature is not only meaningless to this rider, it actually works to his detriment. Now if you want to do big drops (jumps) you'll need the bigger shock, but you'll have to live with a slower bike.

    A missing feature is only a consideration if you plan to use that feature. Far more important is "the package", the experience of riding the bike or using the phone the way the user is going to use it. Putting the rider in a more aerodynamic position, putting him in a position where he can apply more pedal force, providing him easier and quicker access to gear shifts, adjusting bike geometry to allow him to conserve energy my reducing strain on various muscles, adjusting bike geometry and shock valve settings to provide better wheel traction all don;'t show up on "spec sheets" but they all show up in race times and place listings.

    Arguments like "Dude that italian restaurant sux, they don't even sell veal scallapini there" don't matter much when all one want is a pizza.
    Is this "24"? Cause I keep wanting to say "geez, Jack".

    The iPod became the 1200 gorilla (is that thr Apple version of the 800 lbs gorilla?) for one reason - they made it work with Windows. (And iTunes was a decent library manager, although Apple is trying to make it more complicated with each release).

    And the products do not sell themselves - the marketing is HUGE, and I guarantee you without the frenzied hype of the iPhone, you would never have seen such big numbers when it was realeased. Marketing is core to Apple (as is product design).

    I am not saying it's all marketing, because there is good design, but I don't think you can just blow off marketing as not relevants.

    Making some more absolute comments, like "99% of people dont' want..."?

    You mean like:

    -Cut and Paste
    -Replaceable battery

    I think it's not just 1% asking for these (and many other "expected" features). The iPhone forums show this be the case.

    I have used an iPhone - lots to like, but there's a lot missing as well.

    You seem to be in analogy overload...cars, bike, etc.

    Let's just stick to the iPhone itself - that is point, right? (although again, the poin tyou are arguing is not clear...)
    07-19-2007 10:34 AM
  3. surur's Avatar
    When you show me it's screen rotating, viewing full size web pages, not stripped down mobile versions without scrolling etc etc, we can talk again.



    No that point is immaterial. Apple marketing is the easiest job in the world cause their products sell themselves. The iPod didn't become the 1200 pound gorilla because of marketing. It got that way by having:

    The best UI
    Avoiding a plethora of features and adhering to the KISS principle
    High product quality

    The point is you buy a tool for the job you want to do. It's senseless to burden yourself with the complexity and instability of a "full featured device" when you don't need those features. Unless of course your main purchase criteria is "Look how cool I am, my device can do this".



    Yeah it doesn't have any of the features 99% of the population doesn't need or want.

    Again, the point for the last time is that these overabundant, feature laden phones that are so overstuffed into their little packages that they require excessive effort to use and maintain. Again, the point is that most people don't want or need these features. To you and the rest of our minuscule user segement who use these things, these may be important features......to most of the world, they are just "clutter" that exists at the detriment of stability and simplicity.

    Check out the reviews of the iPhone by ex Treo users. The seems to be a pretty consistent theme. "It does what it does better by leaps and bounds than my Treo and what it doesn't do, I ain't missin." Me personally, I'd miss some of the things, so I keepin my Treo. I recognize that my handheld needs, like my vehicle needs, put me in a very small minority of the population.

    If you want to "get it" go hold one in your hand. Stop looking at feature lists an actually use it. Upon receiving my Treo, I read the 254 page user manual and spent the better part of two days setting it up. I installed Crash, PowerRun and all the other utilities "necessary" to make it work adequately and was effectively using the device 3 or 4 days later.

    Iphone users are using the device in the car on the way home from the store. They don't need to open the manual except as an occasional reference. That is what sells. I'd post the three ex-Treo user reviews I have read on the iPhone but why bother. You won't get the point. It's not what the iPhone doesn't have, it's that to most users these "missing features" are just "clutter".

    Even PalmInfo's review, hardly unbiased came down to a 5 to 5 tie until they got to the price category which was the deciding factor. Treonauts calls the iPhone "the new benchmark that others will have to beat in the consumer smartphone space."

    Lotta stuff claimed about the iPhone has also turned out to be false.....like the purported 400 battery cycle life. <annoying buzzer>. Not true.....after 400 cycles the battery merely drop to 80% capacity.

    A device is more than it's components. It's the design. I mountain bike. Things like component weight, shock design, gear ratios are all listed on the spec page are all significant. But what is far more significant is how well they are packaged and function together. Is 6 gear sprockets better than 5 sure, is 3 front sprocket rings better than 2, sure. Is a bike with 3 / 6 better than one with 2/5 ....er....on paper. But a poor gear shifter can easily render that advantage a detriment. Poor geometry which doesn't allow the most efficient application of pedal forces can kill many "spec advantages". And gadget improvement one adds to increase the amount of force applied to the wheel is insignificant if the rear shock doesn't keep the wheel on the ground. The increased weight of a large shock with 6 inch travel is a detriment to a cross country racer who gets no benefit over a 3-4" travel shock and the so missing the "big drop" capability feature is not only meaningless to this rider, it actually works to his detriment. Now if you want to do big drops (jumps) you'll need the bigger shock, but you'll have to live with a slower bike.

    A missing feature is only a consideration if you plan to use that feature. Far more important is "the package", the experience of riding the bike or using the phone the way the user is going to use it. Putting the rider in a more aerodynamic position, putting him in a position where he can apply more pedal force, providing him easier and quicker access to gear shifts, adjusting bike geometry to allow him to conserve energy my reducing strain on various muscles, adjusting bike geometry and shock valve settings to provide better wheel traction all don;'t show up on "spec sheets" but they all show up in race times and place listings.

    Arguments like "Dude that italian restaurant sux, they don't even sell veal scallapini there" don't matter much when all one want is a pizza.
    Too long again Jack, too long. Try and condense a bit. No one else is writing 800 word essays.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 10:35 AM
  4. volwrath's Avatar
    No fair I posted that yesterday
    07-19-2007 10:35 AM
  5. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Probably true, but meaningless. First, the iPhone is brand new, the Treo not so. "New" alsmost always outsells old, at first. People who have been waiting for it for 6 months can now all buy it in a very short time period. People who wanted a Treo during the last 6 months just bought one.

    Aside from that, so what? McDonalds sells a lot more hamburgers than Lowry's sells Prime Rib. I suppose that proves the burger is better?


    As many have pointed out, the iPhone and Treo are aimed at two different markets. The iPhone doesn't begin to compete with the Treo on serious PDA or email capabilities. The Treo doesn't have nearly the Wow! factor, nor the ease of multimedia playback the iPhone offers. Both offer great benefits for particular users, and both have significant flaws.

    Many Treo "fanboys" have denied the Treo's flaws since day one. It appears most iPhone "fanboys" have the same myopia regarding their plaything.
    Actually, most Treo "fanboys" have been VERY critical of the Treo; just look at the other forums over the years.

    They are nothing like Apple fanboys in that regards.
    07-19-2007 10:36 AM
  6. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Seems like hooey to me; if it's true, either:

    - Dukes' network design sucks
    - Apple didn't test well.
    07-19-2007 10:40 AM
  7. marcol's Avatar
    You could be right
    I was really just going by the published forecasts, e.g.:

    The frenzy of demand for Apple Inc.s (AAPL) new iPhone since it went on sale in the U.S. last Friday has driven sales, average price and margin expectations at Goldman Sachs higher. The smartphone is another example of how Apple can bring dramatic chance to an industry, analyst David Bailey said in a research note earlier this week.

    He expected iPhone sales during its first weekend would be around 350,000 units, but thinks actual sales may have been double that.

    Others said the sales goal at Apple and on Wall Street was 1 million phones. Nonetheless, Mr. Bailey raised his iPhone forecast to 5.25 million for 2007 and 12 million for 2008, up from 4 million and 10.5 million respectively.
    http://ce.seekingalpha.com/article/40169

    Apple itself has been trying to dampen down market expectations about iPhone sales, but the US stills seems hyped up about the prospects for the phone which is due to launch about now. Now Merrill Lynch has weighed in with a forecast that monthly shipments will initially total 200,000-300,000 and ramp to about 1m units by the end of the year; that totals about 4m iPhone shipments in 2007. Next year could see 12m sales, still a long way behind the likes of Nokia and Motorola both of whom expect Apples entry to help push sales of their own highend feature-rich models.
    http://www.mbmagazine.co.uk/index.ph...=2565&Itemid=2

    Palm sold 2.7 million Treos last year:

    Palm's revenue for the full fiscal year in 2007 was $1.56 billion, down 1 percent from the $1.58 billion reported last year. Smartphone sell-through for the full year reached a company record high totaling 2.7 million units, up 34 percent year over year. Smartphone revenue was $1.25 billion, up 15 percent from the prior year.
    http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/1257-1.htm

    I think they probably will but I know they would if they would drop the iPhone to a more reasonable $200 or so.
    To get that low they'd need a new model or to subsidise. $200 is below the cost of manufacture:

    http://businessweek.com/technology/c...eek+exclusives
    07-19-2007 10:44 AM
  8. oalvarez's Avatar
    Probably true, but meaningless. First, the iPhone is brand new, the Treo not so. "New" alsmost always outsells old, at first.
    is the 680 not relatively new? how about the 755?
    07-19-2007 10:46 AM
  9. oalvarez's Avatar


    Jobs said Apple didn't want to make a smartphone, but then continually compares the iPhones to smartphones.
    this is really getting old.......and meaningless.
    07-19-2007 10:54 AM
  10. oalvarez's Avatar
    Dont send me on google session....

    Surur

    Hey, have you or anyone else here tried doing a search using the word "bug" on any of the Treo forums? How about "help me"? Or "crash" perhaps?

    The results are staggering, and equally entertaining.
    07-19-2007 10:56 AM
  11. marcol's Avatar
    Personally i think if you want relative popularity, you should compare all windows media phone products vs all apple phone products, because the general WM OS's are RELATIVELY (that word again ) the same.
    I'll have a go at a prediction July 2007 - June 2008 it will be a dead heat - number of iPhones sold will equal number of WM devices sold.
    07-19-2007 10:58 AM
  12. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    As there is not defn of smartphone, refer to:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

    Which I think 95% of people would agree with.
    I don't speak l33t so not sure what "As there is not defn of" means. But I know that page well.

    Just look here alone, we have half the people claiming the iPhone it is not a smartphone so that definition goes out the window. The major industry reporters can't even agree on what a smartphone is with many long holding that the Treo and BB's are not in the same category.

    To some people a smart phone has phone and data e-mail capability.
    Others say, web access needed.
    Others say mulktimedia needed
    Others say 3rd party programs needed

    Did ya bother to read ya refrenece.. If ya did you'\d see it confirms my point

    Smartphones can [not must] be noted by several features which include, but are not limited to, touchscreen, operating system, and tethered modem capabilities on top of the default phone characteristics. A full-fledged email support seems to be a characteristic key defining feature found in all existing and announced smartphones as of 2007[2]. Most smartphones also allows the user install extra software, normally even from third party sources, but some phones vendors like to call their phones smartphones even without this feature.
    So units w/o touchscreens are not smartphones...well that knocks out a whole lot of so called smartphones.
    07-19-2007 11:01 AM
  13. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    Too long again Jack, too long. Try and condense a bit. No one else is writing 800 word essays.
    Answer the question.
    07-19-2007 11:02 AM
  14. marcol's Avatar
    I don't speak l33t so not sure what "As there is not defn of" means. But I know that page well.

    Just look here alone, we have half the people claiming the iPhone it is not a smartphone so that definition goes out the window. The major industry reporters can't even agree on what a smartphone is with many long holding that the Treo and BB's are not in the same category.

    To some people a smart phone has phone and data e-mail capability.
    Others say, web access needed.
    Others say mulktimedia needed
    Others say 3rd party programs needed

    Did ya bother to read ya refrenece.. If ya did you'\d see it confirms my point



    So units w/o touchscreens are not smartphones...well that knocks out a whole lot of so called smartphones.
    Yep. There sure ain't an agreed definition. I expect a level of agreement will emerge over time but until then the word isn't particularly useful (unless used in a context in which it has already been defined).
    07-19-2007 11:10 AM
  15. volwrath's Avatar
    I'll have a go at a prediction July 2007 - June 2008 it will be a dead heat - number of iPhones sold will equal number of WM devices sold.
    I sincerely doubt it. My company has gone hogwild over Moto Qs. I am sure many businesses have and will. This will increase the lead of WM sales. I think that iPhones vs personal WM devices will be a close number however.
    07-19-2007 11:11 AM
  16. marcol's Avatar
    I sincerely doubt it. My company has gone hogwild over Moto Qs. I am sure many businesses have and will. This will increase the lead of WM sales. I think that iPhones vs personal WM devices will be a close number however.
    It may not have looked like it, but my prediction did have a bit of reasoning behind it. Worldwide the smartphone market in 2006 was probably somewhere between 60 and 80 million units. Here are a couple of estimates:

    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2007/r2007024.htm
    http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...227_008389.htm

    Windows Mobile had some 12-15% of this - see Canalys link above plus:

    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2006/r2006043.htm
    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2006/r2006071.htm

    So WM devices sold in calendar year 2006 would be in the region 10 million. Add on a bit for growth (smartphone market growth is slowing according to Canalys; Q4 2006 it was 30 %) and for 2007/8 you get numbers very similar to the predicted iPhone sales (I linked a couple of estimates above). I could be radically wrong in this and either WM of iPhone could do much better or worse than predicted. Suggesting approx. level numbers isn't completely silly though.
    07-19-2007 11:36 AM
  17. CountBuggula's Avatar
    is the 680 not relatively new? how about the 755?
    There's nothing new about those phones. They're repackaged versions of the existing hardware. If Palm actually released a phone with new features then it would be a valid comparison, but....
    07-19-2007 11:39 AM
  18. oalvarez's Avatar
    There's nothing new about those phones. They're repackaged versions of the existing hardware. If Palm actually released a phone with new features then it would be a valid comparison, but....
    sure they have new features.....they don't have that stubby little antenna on them and their sides are curved in a bit. their batteries are also lesser capacity than the others.
    07-19-2007 11:41 AM
  19. whmurray's Avatar
    If one could win a discussion based on longevity of posts, you would be a shoo-in

    Frankly the iPhone has been out for three weeks. For you to make the claim that it does everything that 99% of people need including ex-treo owners is hardly a logical argument. Give the new iPhone owners time to get over their euphoria, and about 3-4 months I think the shine may be off. Frankly alot of my casual (non-tech) friends use MMS. I know they would be disappointed with the lack of MMS as well as the lackluster camera in the iPhone. (dont get me wrong, the treo camera sucks horribly) They also have custom ringers, although i suspect apple will fix that soon. Granted they dont need the push email as my 700WX has, but they also would rather have a decently formatted mobile web page on 3G vs a full webpage that takes 50 secs to load on the iphone.

    But you have to admit with the 2G iPhone comes out with 3G and retails for $300 in 6-8 months you Appletons are going to be pissed...
    Not me. I will just take the money that I have made on Apple stock since the availability of the iPhone and buy one.

    That said, history suggests that the Apple people are pricing geniuses. Apple products sell at list and the list falls very slowly. I think that the iPhone can sustain its price for quite a while. I would also expect that a 3G iPhone, whenever introduced, will command a price at least as high as the 2G phone.
    07-19-2007 11:46 AM
  20. whmurray's Avatar
    sure they have new features.....they don't have that stubby little antenna on them and their sides are curved in a bit. their batteries are also lesser capacity than the others.
    Lol. When I was a puppy salesman, there was a strategy called "sell your weakness, feature your deficiencies."
    07-19-2007 11:49 AM
  21. CountBuggula's Avatar
    No that point is immaterial. Apple marketing is the easiest job in the world cause their products sell themselves.
    So...Macs are so good that Apple didn't have to to sell their product?

    The iPod didn't become the 1200 pound gorilla because of marketing. It got that way by having:

    The best UI
    Avoiding a plethora of features and adhering to the KISS principle
    High product quality
    The iPod is one of the worst quality MP3 players on the market. I used to work at a tech-bench where we got defective and malfunctioning iPods that needed to be refurbished on a daily basis. The iPod gets away with being extraordinarily restrictive and crappy because it became a status symbol and a fashon accessory. Apple marketing did that. Non-tech people who had no idea what MP3s are went out and bought them because they wanted the "cool iPod". When you'd ask them how they liked their new MP3 player they'd say "huh? What's an MP3 player?"

    If you look back up a few posts to the graph of iPod sales you'll see it didn't sell well right away, it took time for that marketing machine to take off.

    The iPhone has been a huge sales success initially because the Apple marketing machine was already in full swing, and there was an insanely huge media frenzy surrounding the device.
    07-19-2007 11:54 AM
  22. CountBuggula's Avatar
    sure they have new features.....they don't have that stubby little antenna on them and their sides are curved in a bit. their batteries are also lesser capacity than the others.
    Haha, I'll agree with you there

    In my sig you'll note that yes, I have a 755, but no, I didn't pay for it and no, I wouldn't pay for it. But it makes a nice free replacement.
    07-19-2007 12:27 PM
  23. mikec#IM's Avatar
    this is really getting old.......and meaningless.
    the trvth never gets old. And it was in response to Jack's comment.


    I thought you were leaving...
    07-19-2007 12:31 PM
  24. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Hey, have you or anyone else here tried doing a search using the word "bug" on any of the Treo forums? How about "help me"? Or "crash" perhaps?

    The results are staggering, and equally entertaining.
    The tphone was never marketed as the jphone.
    07-19-2007 12:32 PM
  25. oalvarez's Avatar
    shoo fly
    07-19-2007 12:43 PM
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