1. volwrath's Avatar

    Answer the question.

    How is:

    a) Sales in one country versus worldwide sales
    b) Sales on one carrier sales versus sales on all carriers
    c) Sales of one model versus sales of all models
    Comeon your argument truly doesnt make sense. You are trying to compartmentalize the Treo down to the Iphone simply because the iPhone isnt on anyother carriers or sold worldwide. Thats Apple's choice. You are trying to penalize palm for branching out with multiple carriers. if someone wants to phrase the questions below they are perfectly valid.

    a) sales of iPhones worldwide vs sale of treo's worldwide
    b) sales of iPhones on all the US carriers vs sales of Treos on all the US carriers
    c) sales of all iPhone models vs sales of all Treo models

    bottom line is number of units sold and amount of revenue generated, and I will grant you iPhone/Apple wins with revenue/unit

    volwrathPE
    07-18-2007 07:32 PM
  2. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Volwrath is correct.

    See Jack, no spin zone.
    07-18-2007 09:55 PM
  3. oalvarez's Avatar
    See, there's your mistake. Because of point 2., the IPhone is not Treo-like. Its more Razr-like.

    Surur
    or maybe it's your mistake. have you ever considered that?
    07-19-2007 12:12 AM
  4. surur's Avatar
    or maybe it's your mistake. have you ever considered that?
    Maybe I was convinced by all the iPhone supporters who says Jobs never said the iPhone was a smartphone?


    Surur
    07-19-2007 02:16 AM
  5. marcol's Avatar
    Maybe I was convinced by all the iPhone supporters who says Jobs never said the iPhone was a smartphone?
    I don't know where anything you believe comes from, but I'm pretty sure none of it's from iPhone supporters
    07-19-2007 04:39 AM
  6. marcol's Avatar
    Comeon your argument truly doesnt make sense. You are trying to compartmentalize the Treo down to the Iphone simply because the iPhone isnt on anyother carriers or sold worldwide. Thats Apple's choice. You are trying to penalize palm for branching out with multiple carriers. if someone wants to phrase the questions below they are perfectly valid.

    a) sales of iPhones worldwide vs sale of treo's worldwide
    b) sales of iPhones on all the US carriers vs sales of Treos on all the US carriers
    c) sales of all iPhone models vs sales of all Treo models
    I think you'll find (when real numbers are available) that for any time period that starts after the June 29, 2007 that iPhone sales are higher all of those categories.

    bottom line is number of units sold and amount of revenue generated, and I will grant you iPhone/Apple wins with revenue/unit
    Do you really think they won't shift more units than Palm too? That would certainly put you at the extreme bottom end of iPhone sales predictions (or a believer in a massive explosion of Treos sales).
    07-19-2007 04:50 AM
  7. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    Jack, how about actually coming to your point, instead of dancing around it. And if your want all your points answered, how about making your posts a bit shorter.

    Surur
    True to form....don't address the facts, complain about the amount of facts placed against your position. Same ole same ole.
    07-19-2007 07:42 AM
  8. surur's Avatar
    I don't know where anything you believe comes from, but I'm pretty sure none of it's from iPhone supporters
    Dont send me on google session....

    Surur
    07-19-2007 07:44 AM
  9. surur's Avatar
    True to form....don't address the facts, complain about the amount of facts placed against your position. Same ole same ole.
    Thats commendably short, but devoid of a point unfortunately.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 07:46 AM
  10. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    See, there's your mistake. Because of point 2., the IPhone is not Treo-like. Its more Razr-like.
    The iPhone is far more capable than the Razr. The web usage alone represents a whole new paradigm shift that will have the industry scrambling for years.

    Let me repeat, the ONLY reason Treo sales were quoted is to put all the "it doesn't have this comments" in perspective. It was not, as oft repeated and ignored, meant to say anything about Treo sales versus iPhone sales. When someone claims that the iPhone sux because it doesn't do what their Treo can do, I am merely pointing out that us Treo geeks represent a minute market segment.

    It's like saying a newly introduced car model sux because the new model doesn't go 230 mph. The segment of the population that needs to go 230 mph is very, very small and whether or not it goes 230 mph is not going to figure into the mindset of most car buyers.

    BTW, are you really claiming that no one smartphone model has sold more than 500 000 in one year? Is that with some unspoken proviso, or is that the whole claim?
    Maybe you and Mike could actually read the word used. Saying "I am not aware of" is not a blanket statement that something never happened, only that I am not aware of it.

    And if I meant smartphones I would have said smartphones. And with not many people willing to agree on the definition of smartphones, it would have required several provisios. With 2.5 million sales between 6 models, I don';t see any Treo significantly passing 500k.

    I think you will recall, a few years back, the initial forcasts of Palm's doom based upon the "fact" that Rim sold more units than Palm. What the poster failed to address however was that while the sale of blackberries with a phone in them was included in teh totals and the sales of the CC with a phone were actually less than Treo sales that year.

    So yes, the provisio would be that the smartphone model in question have all the features and capabilities of the Treo.
    07-19-2007 08:04 AM
  11. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    Thats commendably short, but devoid of a point unfortunately.

    Surur
    Point is your post, as usual has no point, addresses no point and yet again excels in art of diversion thereform.
    07-19-2007 08:05 AM
  12. surur's Avatar
    The iPhone is far more capable than the Razr.
    I know you have only joined this thread recently, but we have already established that the Razr is more capable that the iPhone.

    Let me repeat, the ONLY reason Treo sales were quoted is to put all the "it doesn't have this comments" in perspective. It was not, as oft repeated and ignored, meant to say anything about Treo sales versus iPhone sales. When someone claims that the iPhone sux because it doesn't do what their Treo can do, I am merely pointing out that us Treo geeks represent a minute market segment.
    If you point all along is that we should not look down on the iPhone, because the sales indicate that, despite its (lack of) features its a more wanted device, I dont think anyone has ever made the opposite claim. We all know Apple marketing can sell anything.

    That does not change the fact that its crippled, and the comparison with any decent smartphone shows how crippled it is.

    Surur
    07-19-2007 08:15 AM
  13. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    Comeon your argument truly doesnt make sense. You are trying to compartmentalize the Treo down to the Iphone simply because the iPhone isnt on anyother carriers or sold worldwide.
    It's the only argument that can be made at this point. Pick anything you want to compare and than artificially limit the markets it can be sold in for one of them. How does one do a comparison ? We are not talking about financial impact on the companies, we are talking relkative popularity

    Does one compare the Pirates of the Carribean I sales with PotC II if the latter was released only in one state ?

    Back in the day before say Burger King was a national chain (primarily the southern states) could one make a judgment between what people liked better McDonalds of Burger King ? How could one compare sales in 5,000 markets versus sales in 800 markets ? You couldn't include McDonalds sales in say NY state ina time when Burger King had no outlets in NY State.

    You can't equate iPhone sales wordwide with Treo sales worldwide because the iPhone till this point is only sold in the US. You can't equate iPhone sales on all carriers with Treo sales on all carriers as the Iphoen is not sold on all carriers.

    Thats Apple's choice. You are trying to penalize palm for branching out with multiple carriers.
    No I am just looking at the issue on a level playing field. Apple hasn't made the choice you imply. Apple has made the choice to not begin selling outside the US tll certain sales quotas are reached here. Apple is contractually obligated not to sell on other carriers....at this time. These limitations are artificial and time limited.

    Historically Palm does the same thing. Sprint had exclusives on the 650 when it was released.......Sprint had the exclusive on the 700p when it came out. So if we wanna compare apples and apples, we should compare Treo sales when it was "an exclusive" with artificial limits tot he iPhone with it;s artifical limits.
    07-19-2007 08:25 AM
  14. meyerweb#CB's Avatar
    I think you'll find (when real numbers are available) that for any time period that starts after the June 29, 2007 that iPhone sales are higher all of those categories.
    Probably true, but meaningless. First, the iPhone is brand new, the Treo not so. "New" alsmost always outsells old, at first. People who have been waiting for it for 6 months can now all buy it in a very short time period. People who wanted a Treo during the last 6 months just bought one.

    Aside from that, so what? McDonalds sells a lot more hamburgers than Lowry's sells Prime Rib. I suppose that proves the burger is better?


    As many have pointed out, the iPhone and Treo are aimed at two different markets. The iPhone doesn't begin to compete with the Treo on serious PDA or email capabilities. The Treo doesn't have nearly the Wow! factor, nor the ease of multimedia playback the iPhone offers. Both offer great benefits for particular users, and both have significant flaws.

    Many Treo "fanboys" have denied the Treo's flaws since day one. It appears most iPhone "fanboys" have the same myopia regarding their plaything.
    07-19-2007 08:27 AM
  15. marcol's Avatar
    If you point all along is that we should not look down on the iPhone, because the sales indicate that, despite its (lack of) features its a more wanted device, I dont think anyone has ever made the opposite claim. We all know Apple marketing can sell anything.
    With the best will in the world, I think it's pretty deluded to believe that iPhone sales are ONLY a function of Apple marketing. It's device owners are happy with and which they're happy to recommend to others. You might not like it, but Apple made a device that people are attracted to and enjoy using.
    07-19-2007 08:37 AM
  16. marcol's Avatar
    Probably true, but meaningless. First, the iPhone is brand new, the Treo not so. "New" alsmost always outsells old, at first. People who have been waiting for it for 6 months can now all buy it in a very short time period. People who wanted a Treo during the last 6 months just bought one.
    Obviously early sales were boosted by those waiting but it would be very wrong to assume that sales of all products decline forever after an early peak. iPod sales:



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipod

    It would also be wrong to assume that new products always outsell (competing) old products. Apple sold about 30 million iPods in the period Microsoft sold its first million Zunes. Breaking into an established market is actually pretty hard.

    Aside from that, so what? McDonalds sells a lot more hamburgers than Lowry's sells Prime Rib. I suppose that proves the burger is better?
    Good grief, the burger argument again! What you say is of course true, but that doesn't mean that everything that's popular is the equivalent of a McDonalds' burger. Microsoft Windows, you want fries with that?


    As many have pointed out, the iPhone and Treo are aimed at two different markets. The iPhone doesn't begin to compete with the Treo on serious PDA or email capabilities. The Treo doesn't have nearly the Wow! factor, nor the ease of multimedia playback the iPhone offers. Both offer great benefits for particular users, and both have significant flaws.
    Agreed, except that I do think there is some (limited) overlap in the markets.

    Many Treo "fanboys" have denied the Treo's flaws since day one. It appears most iPhone "fanboys" have the same myopia regarding their plaything.
    As good a definition of fanboy as I've seen
    07-19-2007 08:55 AM
  17. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I don't know where anything you believe comes from, but I'm pretty sure none of it's from iPhone supporters
    Jobs said Apple didn't want to make a smartphone, but then continually compares the iPhones to smartphones.
    07-19-2007 10:00 AM
  18. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Thats commendably short, but devoid of a point unfortunately.

    Surur
    LOL
    07-19-2007 10:00 AM
  19. mikec#IM's Avatar
    The iPhone is far more capable than the Razr. The web usage alone represents a whole new paradigm shift that will have the industry scrambling for years.

    Let me repeat, the ONLY reason Treo sales were quoted is to put all the "it doesn't have this comments" in perspective. It was not, as oft repeated and ignored, meant to say anything about Treo sales versus iPhone sales. When someone claims that the iPhone sux because it doesn't do what their Treo can do, I am merely pointing out that us Treo geeks represent a minute market segment.

    It's like saying a newly introduced car model sux because the new model doesn't go 230 mph. The segment of the population that needs to go 230 mph is very, very small and whether or not it goes 230 mph is not going to figure into the mindset of most car buyers.



    Maybe you and Mike could actually read the word used. Saying "I am not aware of" is not a blanket statement that something never happened, only that I am not aware of it.

    And if I meant smartphones I would have said smartphones. And with not many people willing to agree on the definition of smartphones, it would have required several provisios. With 2.5 million sales between 6 models, I don';t see any Treo significantly passing 500k.

    I think you will recall, a few years back, the initial forcasts of Palm's doom based upon the "fact" that Rim sold more units than Palm. What the poster failed to address however was that while the sale of blackberries with a phone in them was included in teh totals and the sales of the CC with a phone were actually less than Treo sales that year.

    So yes, the provisio would be that the smartphone model in question have all the features and capabilities of the Treo.
    Jack,

    I do what you write. If you change your words or context ,then the responses change as well.

    As there is not defn of smartphone, refer to:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

    Which I think 95% of people would agree with.
    07-19-2007 10:04 AM
  20. volwrath's Avatar
    I think you'll find (when real numbers are available) that for any time period that starts after the June 29, 2007 that iPhone sales are higher all of those categories.
    You could be right


    Do you really think they won't shift more units than Palm too? That would certainly put you at the extreme bottom end of iPhone sales predictions (or a believer in a massive explosion of Treos sales).
    I think they probably will but I know they would if they would drop the iPhone to a more reasonable $200 or so.
    07-19-2007 10:06 AM
  21. JackNaylorPE's Avatar
    I know you have only joined this thread recently, but we have already established that the Razr is more capable that the iPhone.
    When you show me it's screen rotating, viewing full size web pages, not stripped down mobile versions without scrolling etc etc, we can talk again.

    If you point all along is that we should not look down on the iPhone, because the sales indicate that, despite its (lack of) features its a more wanted device, I dont think anyone has ever made the opposite claim. We all know Apple marketing can sell anything.
    No that point is immaterial. Apple marketing is the easiest job in the world cause their products sell themselves. The iPod didn't become the 1200 pound gorilla because of marketing. It got that way by having:

    The best UI
    Avoiding a plethora of features and adhering to the KISS principle
    High product quality

    The point is you buy a tool for the job you want to do. It's senseless to burden yourself with the complexity and instability of a "full featured device" when you don't need those features. Unless of course your main purchase criteria is "Look how cool I am, my device can do this".

    That does not change the fact that its crippled, and the comparison with any decent smartphone shows how crippled it is.
    Yeah it doesn't have any of the features 99% of the population doesn't need or want.

    Again, the point for the last time is that these overabundant, feature laden phones that are so overstuffed into their little packages that they require excessive effort to use and maintain. Again, the point is that most people don't want or need these features. To you and the rest of our minuscule user segement who use these things, these may be important features......to most of the world, they are just "clutter" that exists at the detriment of stability and simplicity.

    Check out the reviews of the iPhone by ex Treo users. The seems to be a pretty consistent theme. "It does what it does better by leaps and bounds than my Treo and what it doesn't do, I ain't missin." Me personally, I'd miss some of the things, so I keepin my Treo. I recognize that my handheld needs, like my vehicle needs, put me in a very small minority of the population.

    If you want to "get it" go hold one in your hand. Stop looking at feature lists an actually use it. Upon receiving my Treo, I read the 254 page user manual and spent the better part of two days setting it up. I installed Crash, PowerRun and all the other utilities "necessary" to make it work adequately and was effectively using the device 3 or 4 days later.

    Iphone users are using the device in the car on the way home from the store. They don't need to open the manual except as an occasional reference. That is what sells. I'd post the three ex-Treo user reviews I have read on the iPhone but why bother. You won't get the point. It's not what the iPhone doesn't have, it's that to most users these "missing features" are just "clutter".

    Even PalmInfo's review, hardly unbiased came down to a 5 to 5 tie until they got to the price category which was the deciding factor. Treonauts calls the iPhone "the new benchmark that others will have to beat in the consumer smartphone space."

    Lotta stuff claimed about the iPhone has also turned out to be false.....like the purported 400 battery cycle life. <annoying buzzer>. Not true.....after 400 cycles the battery merely drop to 80% capacity.

    A device is more than it's components. It's the design. I mountain bike. Things like component weight, shock design, gear ratios are all listed on the spec page are all significant. But what is far more significant is how well they are packaged and function together. Is 6 gear sprockets better than 5 sure, is 3 front sprocket rings better than 2, sure. Is a bike with 3 / 6 better than one with 2/5 ....er....on paper. But a poor gear shifter can easily render that advantage a detriment. Poor geometry which doesn't allow the most efficient application of pedal forces can kill many "spec advantages". And gadget improvement one adds to increase the amount of force applied to the wheel is insignificant if the rear shock doesn't keep the wheel on the ground. The increased weight of a large shock with 6 inch travel is a detriment to a cross country racer who gets no benefit over a 3-4" travel shock and the so missing the "big drop" capability feature is not only meaningless to this rider, it actually works to his detriment. Now if you want to do big drops (jumps) you'll need the bigger shock, but you'll have to live with a slower bike.

    A missing feature is only a consideration if you plan to use that feature. Far more important is "the package", the experience of riding the bike or using the phone the way the user is going to use it. Putting the rider in a more aerodynamic position, putting him in a position where he can apply more pedal force, providing him easier and quicker access to gear shifts, adjusting bike geometry to allow him to conserve energy my reducing strain on various muscles, adjusting bike geometry and shock valve settings to provide better wheel traction all don;'t show up on "spec sheets" but they all show up in race times and place listings.

    Arguments like "Dude that italian restaurant sux, they don't even sell veal scallapini there" don't matter much when all one want is a pizza.
    07-19-2007 10:13 AM
  22. volwrath's Avatar
    It's the only argument that can be made at this point. Pick anything you want to compare and than artificially limit the markets it can be sold in for one of them. How does one do a comparison ? We are not talking about financial impact on the companies, we are talking relkative popularity

    Does one compare the Pirates of the Carribean I sales with PotC II if the latter was released only in one state ?

    Back in the day before say Burger King was a national chain (primarily the southern states) could one make a judgment between what people liked better McDonalds of Burger King ? How could one compare sales in 5,000 markets versus sales in 800 markets ? You couldn't include McDonalds sales in say NY state ina time when Burger King had no outlets in NY State.
    So you could say that McDonalds is more popular relative to the nation. after all we are talking relative popularity.

    You can't equate iPhone sales wordwide with Treo sales worldwide because the iPhone till this point is only sold in the US. You can't equate iPhone sales on all carriers with Treo sales on all carriers as the Iphoen is not sold on all carriers.

    No I am just looking at the issue on a level playing field. Apple hasn't made the choice you imply. Apple has made the choice to not begin selling outside the US tll certain sales quotas are reached here. Apple is contractually obligated not to sell on other carriers....at this time. These limitations are artificial and time limited.

    Historically Palm does the same thing. Sprint had exclusives on the 650 when it was released.......Sprint had the exclusive on the 700p when it came out. So if we wanna compare apples and apples, we should compare Treo sales when it was "an exclusive" with artificial limits tot he iPhone with it;s artifical limits.
    A level playing field huh? You are spinning it your way, much like surer and co are spinning it their way. Personally i think if you want relative popularity, you should compare all windows media phone products vs all apple phone products, because the general WM OS's are RELATIVELY (that word again ) the same.
    07-19-2007 10:21 AM
  23. mikec#IM's Avatar
    It's the only argument that can be made at this point. Pick anything you want to compare and than artificially limit the markets it can be sold in for one of them. How does one do a comparison ? We are not talking about financial impact on the companies, we are talking relkative popularity

    Does one compare the Pirates of the Carribean I sales with PotC II if the latter was released only in one state ?

    Back in the day before say Burger King was a national chain (primarily the southern states) could one make a judgment between what people liked better McDonalds of Burger King ? How could one compare sales in 5,000 markets versus sales in 800 markets ? You couldn't include McDonalds sales in say NY state ina time when Burger King had no outlets in NY State.

    You can't equate iPhone sales wordwide with Treo sales worldwide because the iPhone till this point is only sold in the US. You can't equate iPhone sales on all carriers with Treo sales on all carriers as the Iphoen is not sold on all carriers.



    No I am just looking at the issue on a level playing field. Apple hasn't made the choice you imply. Apple has made the choice to not begin selling outside the US tll certain sales quotas are reached here. Apple is contractually obligated not to sell on other carriers....at this time. These limitations are artificial and time limited.

    Historically Palm does the same thing. Sprint had exclusives on the 650 when it was released.......Sprint had the exclusive on the 700p when it came out. So if we wanna compare apples and apples, we should compare Treo sales when it was "an exclusive" with artificial limits tot he iPhone with it;s artifical limits.
    Actually Jack, with the proper statistical method and sampling, you could make comparisons across those areas.

    But I'm still confused by what you are trying to debate...

    That the iPhone is the best-selling-over-a-1-week-period-starting-6/29/2007-non-smartphone-locked- to-a-single-carrier-in-a-single-country?

    I could agree with that.
    07-19-2007 10:23 AM
  24. whmurray's Avatar
    It's also the most horrible place with some of the worst examples of humanity in the US, not that I'm necessarily implying anything...
    Used to think so. Then I went there.
    07-19-2007 10:27 AM
  25. whmurray's Avatar
    07-19-2007 10:32 AM
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