1. cmaier's Avatar
    HAHAHAHA!!!
    So I just got back from lunc, listening to the PhoneDifferent podcast put together by mike and dieter.

    They were saying that this thread had a big discussion without any resolution of whether or not the iPhone has virtual memory and inturn using paging I assume?


    First, the iPhone has more than the 128MB as you two noted in the podcast; you are forgetting about the 1GB embedded on the CPU.

    Second, and more importantly, you are forgetting (or are probably just unaware) about Apple's use of LLVM. It only loads the parts of applications that are needed. This does away with paging and virtual memory as you know it.

    More efficient this way.

    You can thank Apple for it's pioneering use of "LLVM" and i'ts contributions back to the community AND you can also thank Apple for the development of "launchd" to constantly control these processes and their contributions that they have given back to the open source community in this regard as well.


    Probably tough for people here to swallow.



    Can't be
    Archie - where did you get the 1GB on the cpu thing? That would be an astoundingly large cache for an ARM-based processor. I doubt it. (Even x86 processors haven't had that much cache until very recently). It would also make for a huge die.

    As for LLVM, you seem to be confusing code and data. We are not talking about what part of the application is in memory. We are talking (primarily) about what part of the application's DATA is in memory.
    08-28-2007 05:32 PM
  2. surur's Avatar
    First, the iPhone has more than the 128MB as you two noted in the podcast; you are forgetting about the 1GB embedded on the CPU.

    Second, and more importantly, you are forgetting (or are probably just unaware) about Apple's use of LLVM. It only loads the parts of applications that are needed. This does away with paging and virtual memory as you know it.
    Archie is back and still spouting nonsense. Do you have a link to back this up?

    Surur
    08-28-2007 05:33 PM
  3. cmaier's Avatar
    The touch response seems a little to the left on the virtual keys. Maybe it's a quirk of this one, but I notice going dead center on the button often hits the next letter. If I tap a little to the left on the button, it's accurate.
    What I find is that when I think i'm dead center, the part of my thumb touching the button is actually off to the side a bit, so with my right thumb I had to aim left and with my left thumb I had to aim right. But because of the way I held the phone in my left hand, the adjustment for the right thumb was bigger.

    I stopped consciously thinking about after about a week, and now I can just tap away like a madman.
    08-28-2007 05:35 PM
  4. cmaier's Avatar
    Archie is back and still spouting nonsense. Do you have a link to back this up?

    Surur
    An 8:1 cache to RAM ratio would be unheard of (but would prove there is VM - otherwise 7/8 of that memory would at all times be empty).

    And any on-chip memory would have to be cache (particularly since otherwise there is no point added the 128MB external memory).

    Archie, as usual, makes no sense, but his pedantic tone is at least amusing.
    08-28-2007 05:44 PM
  5. oalvarez's Avatar
    The touch response seems a little to the left on the virtual keys. Maybe it's a quirk of this one, but I notice going dead center on the button often hits the next letter. If I tap a little to the left on the button, it's accurate.

    Diva, curious as to what you think of the user experience up to now, especially that of the internet and media. Do you like its simplicity? Do you find it refreshing? We all know that it has omissions (deleting a single call, being able to attach a photo via email, MMS, etc) so I'm really asking about how you find the actual user experience to be. Easy, hard, frustrating, enjoyable?

    Thanks in advance!
    08-28-2007 07:21 PM
  6. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Archie's back from the dead and ready to party like it's 1994.

    It's not surprising his comments are false or mistaken...remeber, he claimed wi-fi and bluetooth couldn't work together on the chipset used by Treos (a completely wrong statement).

    He loves spouting LLVM like it's the second coming of Jesus, while he has no understanding of code, data, apis, sdk, and other technical items.

    Getting your info from podcasts is almost the same as sniffing glue and inventing the news yourself.
    08-28-2007 07:57 PM
  7. cmaier's Avatar
    I just took a look at the LLVM website, and it appears to be merely code optimization of the sort used by Transmeta. Presumably one optimizes for speed, not memory, using it, though one could presumably not load code that can't execute (shouldn't be much of that.) When I've seen these things in the past, they actually increase memory usage. For example, typically they do things like eliminate conditional branches by duplicating code, etc.

    I'm admittedly not an expert on LLVM or what Apple may or may not be doing with it, however.
    08-28-2007 08:11 PM
  8. whmurray's Avatar
    3G is still NOT everywhere in the US!

    But since it's new technology and we need to move forward, phones without 3G are definitely backwards IMO. I like phones with both wifi and 3G since they cover both areas when one is not to be found.
    AT&T UMTS coverage sucks but Sprint EVDO is about as good as Sprint. That is pretty good.

    Perhaps ubiquitous overstates it a little but the issue is that it is much wider than Wi-Fi.
    08-28-2007 08:46 PM
  9. whmurray's Avatar
    If I add the cost of my treo 650 to the price of all the software i added to make it useable, it was well more than $600 :-) Of course, at least I had the ability to ADD software. (Out of the box, the treo 650 had a lot more shortcomings for me than the iphone does. Does anyone actually use that versamail crashbait? i don't like crashes, but crashes that actually wipe all the data off your phone are a serious problem. And I forked over for at least 2 alternative web browsers, in addition to a couple of free ones. Plus zlauncher just to be able to make decent use of flash memory [said flash being needed because i had to load so many other programs on their just to get it to work right]. And backup software for when my preferences database got mangled. Argh. I'm having flashbacks.)

    Luckily, I have that ability with iphone, as well, but most people won't go that route.

    Anyway, since most people who already forked over the $600 still appear to be happy (yes, there are exceptions, and the people with complaints are always more likely to post than the people who are happy), and since those are the folks who are "waiting," as you put it, i'd say it's got enough of the "basic functions" they want. Presumably most those who believe that deleting individual calls from the log is a "basic function" (not to mention the other missing features) haven't yet forked over their $600.

    Personally, now that i have a unix shell, I'm content :-)
    I paid $700- for my unlocked GSM Treo from Palm plus another $200 or more for software. iPhone is cheap by comparison. Service is cheaper too. I pay $40- for unlimited data on the Treo but only half that on the iPhone. I do not need Treo customers to tell me about the cost of the iPhone.
    08-28-2007 08:52 PM
  10. Malatesta's Avatar
    I paid $700- for my unlocked GSM Treo from Palm plus another $200 or more for software. iPhone is cheap by comparison. Service is cheaper too. I pay $40- for unlimited data on the Treo but only half that on the iPhone. I do not need Treo customers to tell me about the cost of the iPhone.
    But you are comparing an unlocked GSM Treo to a locked GSM iphone.

    So I guess to equate things:

    (1) How much more would an unlocked iPhone cost than currently offered?

    or

    (2) How much does a locked GSM Treo cost with a new contract?

    Obviously we can't answer the first, but we could the second, and I bet it would be significantly cheaper with a Treo (plus, couldn't you unlock any GSM treo for a small fee?)

    Re: the software for the iPhone. Lets be honest, you don't spend any money on it because you can't. But no one here can honestly tell me that if the iPhone was not sandboxed, you would not buy applications as they became available? No games? No IM client? Not a better PIM?

    It seems wherever there is an open OS, there are plenty of developers and programs to be made.

    (data costs are obviously dependent on the carrier, so that's hit and miss with who you prefer. )
    08-28-2007 09:11 PM
  11. cmaier's Avatar
    But you are comparing an unlocked GSM Treo to a locked GSM iphone.

    So I guess to equate things:

    (1) How much more would an unlocked iPhone cost than currently offered?

    or

    (2) How much does a locked GSM Treo cost with a new contract?

    Obviously we can't answer the first, but we could the second, and I bet it would be significantly cheaper with a Treo (plus, couldn't you unlock any GSM treo for a small fee?)

    Re: the software for the iPhone. Lets be honest, you don't spend any money on it because you can't. But no one here can honestly tell me that if the iPhone was not sandboxed, you would not buy applications as they became available? No games? No IM client? Not a better PIM?

    It seems wherever there is an open OS, there are plenty of developers and programs to be made.

    (data costs are obviously dependent on the carrier, so that's hit and miss with who you prefer. )
    The only point I was trying to make was that the $600 figure being thrown around isn't necessarily the outrageous bullet point that it might seem. My Treo 650 cost around 400 or 500 at the time I got it, and was locked to sprint. By the time I got a memory card and software to make it synch with outlook (keysuite), handle email without crashing, and deal with my data being lost every day, it cost me at least as much as the iphone. And while it could do some things the iphone can't, the iphone can do some things it couldn't.
    08-28-2007 09:51 PM
  12. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    I paid $700- for my unlocked GSM Treo from Palm plus another $200 or more for software. iPhone is cheap by comparison. Service is cheaper too. I pay $40- for unlimited data on the Treo but only half that on the iPhone. I do not need Treo customers to tell me about the cost of the iPhone.
    Honestly, it IS too high for a locked phone.
    08-28-2007 10:03 PM
  13. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    The only point I was trying to make was that the $600 figure being thrown around isn't necessarily the outrageous bullet point that it might seem. My Treo 650 cost around 400 or 500 at the time I got it, and was locked to sprint. By the time I got a memory card and software to make it synch with outlook (keysuite), handle email without crashing, and deal with my data being lost every day, it cost me at least as much as the iphone. And while it could do some things the iphone can't, the iphone can do some things it couldn't.
    That was the Treo 650 and yes there is too much software required for it.

    But except for the screen and browser, many of the good Sony Ericssons and Nokias do most of what the iPhone does and more. For $300-$600 UNLOCKED. And you can use the same data plan as the iPhone since most don't qualify as smartphones under ATT's definition.
    08-28-2007 10:07 PM
  14. oalvarez's Avatar
    Diva, please see my post to you a page back..thanks!
    08-28-2007 10:19 PM
  15. darakaye2's Avatar
    Holy crap! The Jesus phone is the BEST! None better! Apple has released numerous firmware updates already...CHILL people....have FAITH in the ALL MIGHTY APPLE! Technology doesnt get better then this....or at least it hasn't yet.
    08-28-2007 10:25 PM
  16. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    Diva, curious as to what you think of the user experience up to now, especially that of the internet and media. Do you like its simplicity? Do you find it refreshing? We all know that it has omissions (deleting a single call, being able to attach a photo via email, MMS, etc) so I'm really asking about how you find the actual user experience to be. Easy, hard, frustrating, enjoyable?

    Thanks in advance!
    Superior use for the entertainment phone that it really is!!

    Business use is iffy. But I haven't given my new number out to everyone yet. I do wish there was a call filter of some type. And the text alerts and ringers are a bit low. I need to see how loud the calender alert is or it will be a problem if too low. Only when it was quieter did I hear the phone ring today.

    I still think iPhone is a better multi-media device than phone. But we'll see. I haven't put it through my full phone test yet, just the media. I can see another reason why the phone is bad for business. Best way to slack off during the day while at your desk, get on the internet and watch videos, LOL!
    08-28-2007 11:07 PM
  17. oalvarez's Avatar
    yep, caught myself trying to sneak in a few minutes of CSI: Miami at work the other day ......in terms of the ringer, some are much louder than others, i'm currently using the old phone style ringer which is plenty loud.

    enjoy
    08-28-2007 11:32 PM
  18. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    The only one thing I did find that "absolutely sucked" for me was constantly having to pull out the phone to do anything, risking either a drop or some ***** trying to get too close, if you know what I mean. Nothing happened yet, but I think when that Voice software someone said may work is stabilized for the iPhone, I'm going to use it. Plus I think I'm going to have to invest in the Shure headphone adapter ASAP. They were out at the store, I'll order online. It has the same type switch to answer calls from the headphone as the Apple ones.

    All the other stuff I mentioned is minor, but still a bit annoying. But nothing that makes me want to return the phone.
    08-29-2007 12:13 AM
  19. cardfan's Avatar
    Have to take the iphone back since my wife doesn't get reception at work with it (her present).

    Any cons i noticed were (the biggest one being nonApple):

    Sound quality. It's not loud.

    Sound quality again. Reception is spotty. Conversations have lots of choppy, static, and hissing going on. Where on the other hand, sprint is nice, loud, and quiet except for the voice.

    Those were the major ones that would make me want to think twice..

    Some minor ones are:

    Typing. But i probably didn't have it long enough. Long as i didn't have to type a book i'm ok though.

    Speed when not on wi-fi...well..we know that. Still not too horribly bad considering the gorgeous browser on it. Best part about the phone.

    The web apps didn't really do it for me app wise.

    Very nice multimedia though. Simple interface. Nice ipod. Just nice at what it does.

    Bottom line, i almost convinced myself to keep it..but it was her present..lol. Since she needs to be able to use at work, we've no choice really but to stay with sprint.

    I really wish it wasn't AT&T or it'd be a nobrainer decision for me. Where i live, there's EDGE everywhere, but no 3G, so i'm not sure if even the second version of the iphone would be for me. However, sprint has EVDO rev a. all around me. Looks like i'll be in the sprint camp for now.

    The iphone is easily an awesome consumer phone, but its combined with a poor network...at least in my neck of the woods.
    08-29-2007 09:31 AM
  20. bruckwine's Avatar
    HAHAHAHA!!!
    So I just got back from lunc, listening to the PhoneDifferent podcast put together by mike and dieter.

    They were saying that this thread had a big discussion without any resolution of whether or not the iPhone has virtual memory and inturn using paging I assume?


    First, the iPhone has more than the 128MB as you two noted in the podcast; you are forgetting about the 1GB embedded on the CPU.

    Second, and more importantly, you are forgetting (or are probably just unaware) about Apple's use of LLVM. It only loads the parts of applications that are needed. This does away with paging and virtual memory as you know it.

    More efficient this way.

    You can thank Apple for it's pioneering use of "LLVM" and i'ts contributions back to the community AND you can also thank Apple for the development of "launchd" to constantly control these processes and their contributions that they have given back to the open source community in this regard as well.


    Probably tough for people here to swallow.



    Can't be
    Archie - where did you get the 1GB on the cpu thing? That would be an astoundingly large cache for an ARM-based processor. I doubt it. (Even x86 processors haven't had that much cache until very recently). It would also make for a huge die.

    As for LLVM, you seem to be confusing code and data. We are not talking about what part of the application is in memory. We are talking (primarily) about what part of the application's DATA is in memory.
    Archie is back and still spouting nonsense. Do you have a link to back this up?

    Surur
    Archie's back in style!
    08-29-2007 11:13 AM
  21. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    Wow! They finally moved the thread over to PD! I wonder if people will still post as fervently as they did before in it.

    I hear you about the sound Cardfan. Your wife might need earphones to answer the call, but if she doesn't get any reception anyway, that renders the phone useless except as a really nice PMP(portable media player).
    08-29-2007 01:11 PM
  22. surur's Avatar
    Archie's back in style!
    Oh, this is why Archie is back...

    septimus
    (aka Dieter Bohn) Community Director

    Moving Threads

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'll be going through this forum a bit and moving threads to the forum wherein they actually belong. Previously this would have thrown up an error when trying to clicked the "moved" link, but no longer.

    Remember - the hip place to be is the combined forums if you're looking to talk about it all - http://forum.smartphoneexperts.com .
    __________________

    Today, 05:20 PM #2
    Overthrow

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Officially, this is going to happen now.
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=150154

    I guess its actually we who are back in Archie's Apple-loving backyard now

    Surur
    08-29-2007 01:11 PM
  23. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    I have never seen his official review of the iPhone. Did he get one? Maybe he posted the review on PD?
    08-29-2007 01:16 PM
  24. Mike Overbo's Avatar
    Oh, this is why Archie is back...

    I guess its actually we who are back in Archie's Apple-loving backyard now

    Surur
    You can still disparage the iPhone here, Surur. Probably just as well as you could when it was in the 'other devices' section.
    08-29-2007 03:25 PM
  25. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Lame to move the thread...

    Guess they couldn't have one of the most popular theads on TC being non-Treo related.
    08-29-2007 05:00 PM
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