1. braj's Avatar
    An incredibly great cel phone? I understand voice quality is typical, not outstanding and the address book could be improved, but sure, I'll give them that if the iPhone users here agree. I don't have huge demands from my cell phone really. I would like it if you could have calls logged and appear as events in your calendar or something like that though, some more innovation would be nice. Beyond visual voicemail I don't really think there is anything there that is really beyond most other phones. Maybe most phones are incredibly great these days?

    I'd say it isn't really the best iPod ever because there is no way to control it in your pocket, and the storage is really limited. If I wanted the ultimate iPod I would get a regular iPod with some hard buttons. I think there is a lot that could be improved if it is to be considered the 'best'. As far as a media player on a phone it definitely rocks and I'd love one just for the media functionality. But with 10x the storage.

    Safari is just cool so I won't argue with 'the internet in your pocket' even if it is Edge.
    08-24-2007 01:40 PM
  2. surur's Avatar
    By the 1% of folks that are having problems: the failure rate of iphones is less than 1%, much lower than industry standards, according to Business Week.
    Cause for Concern?
    Even if we were to assume that for every person who has posted about problems on a Web forum there were 1,000 more, the total number of glitchy iPhones would still be in the ballpark of 1% of the 1 million iPhones Apple says it will sell by the end of September. And as yet there is no reason to believe the problem rate is anywhere near this high.

    So is 1% an acceptable failure rate for a new device with a lot of new technology? Yes (unless you happen to own one). ISuppli's Jagdish Rebello tells me that it's not uncommon in the wireless industry to see failure rates on new products as high as 3% and 4%, especially when the product is entirely new or, as in Apple's case, the company is building its first phone.

    What's important is that the failure rate goes down over time. As products mature, and the understanding of the various pitfalls in the manufacturing process improves, Rebello says, the failure rate drops in most cases to 1% or less. We don't know the actual failure rate on the iPhone. Apple isn't in the habit of releasing such data, mainly because it's not material to earnings. Apple's spokesperson declined to comment on the subject.

    But one would have to believe that if there is a problem, Apple is doing what companies in this position always do: Figure out what it is and fix it. We on the outside are forced to simply speculate, and in some cases overreact.
    Wow! I did not know BW posted crap! Thats the worst logic I have heard in ages. They counted people of message boards, multiplied by 1000 and said its less than 1% of iPhones sold. And they are only counting people with screen problems.

    What about this guy?

    JC4
    macrumors member

    Join Date: Apr 2006 Well, that didn't take long. Its not hardware. In under 20 minutes of surfing(wifi) iPod crashed. After the first crash it wont last more than a few seconds(of safari use).

    I had 3 tabs open, and frequently switched pages after selecting a link, being aggressive to aggravate the problem. After the first crash all it takes is reading an already loaded page to re-crash iPod. The problem surfaces with less aggressive initial usage, it just takes longer, so please don't tell me I'm expecting too much.

    I still urge people with the issue to report it via Apple support. 2 updates, and they have NOT fixed the problem. They need pressure to make this fundamental capability stable.

    I'll give them a call and see if they still want me to send my old phone in, but form a diagnostic stand point, the new phone loaded with my data should be just as useful.

    JohnC

    Edit: An update. Just spent nearly 1hr on the phone with Apple support. There was nothing in his database to indicate this is a know, being worked on, issue. He had me try a few things I hadn't already tried, and I was still able to repeat the iPod crash while surfing. In fact the entire phone crashed(black w/ apple-logo) during some of our testing(this is the brand new loaner phone). So, as I've said all along, it doesn't look like Apple has been working on this issue. I (or others) should have called this in with version 1.0.0. Whining on the forums has not brought this to Apples attention.
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...18&postcount=9


    Web page sizes are artificially limited to 10MB each, 8 pages max, according to Apple's documentation.
    AFAIK those were recommendations, not limits of the browser. Did you not disprove this yourself. Also people were arguing what a 10 MB web page means. Is it HTML, or with graphics included, or with all the data structures generated also?

    Surur
    08-24-2007 01:40 PM
  3. braj's Avatar
    iTunes just took everything that was on my 40G iPod and put it my iPhone.
    You only had <8GB on your 40GB iPod?
    08-24-2007 01:42 PM
  4. tirk's Avatar
    ...and it does offer an incredibly great internet experience while being very pocketable.
    "incredibly great internet experience" and EDGE surely do not go together.
    08-24-2007 02:01 PM
  5. cmaier's Avatar
    We are not talking about storage (I hate storage being called memory ).We are talking about RAM.

    To save you reading 142 pages of speculation, I have contended that the iPhone, with 128 MB SDRAM, is RAM constrained, and therefore had a hard limit to the size and number of images it could load for example, and the number of large web pages it could have open simultaneously.

    Others have disputed this, saying the iPhone runs "real OSX", and therefore had virtual memory, which meant the apps could address much more memory than the device actually possessed.

    I said embedded devices hardly ever use virtual memory.

    Others said Apple thinks differently.

    In short, it turns out I was right.

    Surur
    You were right? How so? I haven't seen anything definitive either way yet - all we know is that we've been unable to force the phone to use enough memory to trigger demand paging, while running top. Even that other guy, who seemed to understand vm, suggested that the evidence supported demand paging (which is vm). We don't have a smoking gun one way or the other, but that doesn't add up to "i was right."
    08-24-2007 02:05 PM
  6. cmaier's Avatar
    An incredibly great cel phone? I understand voice quality is typical, not outstanding and the address book could be improved, but sure, I'll give them that if the iPhone users here agree. I don't have huge demands from my cell phone really. I would like it if you could have calls logged and appear as events in your calendar or something like that though, some more innovation would be nice. Beyond visual voicemail I don't really think there is anything there that is really beyond most other phones. Maybe most phones are incredibly great these days?

    I'd say it isn't really the best iPod ever because there is no way to control it in your pocket, and the storage is really limited. If I wanted the ultimate iPod I would get a regular iPod with some hard buttons. I think there is a lot that could be improved if it is to be considered the 'best'. As far as a media player on a phone it definitely rocks and I'd love one just for the media functionality. But with 10x the storage.

    Safari is just cool so I won't argue with 'the internet in your pocket' even if it is Edge.
    Re: the ipod functionality - why can't you control it in your pocket? that's what the button on the earphones is for, no? I agree re: the storage. Stick that interface/media functionality on an 80GB ipod, and it's the best ipod ever. It's certainly a better ipod than the nano, however.
    08-24-2007 02:08 PM
  7. surur's Avatar
    You were right? How so? I haven't seen anything definitive either way yet - all we know is that we've been unable to force the phone to use enough memory to trigger demand paging, while running top. Even that other guy, who seemed to understand vm, suggested that the evidence supported demand paging (which is vm). We don't have a smoking gun one way or the other, but that doesn't add up to "i was right."
    I think, with the available evidence we have now, the burden of proof has shifted.

    Surur
    08-24-2007 02:10 PM
  8. cmaier's Avatar
    Wow! I did not know BW posted crap! Thats the worst logic I have heard in ages. They counted people of message boards, multiplied by 1000 and said its less than 1% of iPhones sold. And they are only counting people with screen problems.

    What about this guy?


    http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...18&postcount=9




    AFAIK those were recommendations, not limits of the browser. Did you not disprove this yourself. Also people were arguing what a 10 MB web page means. Is it HTML, or with graphics included, or with all the data structures generated also?

    Surur
    AFAIK those are hard limits (they were next to the maximum image size, etc.) but I agree that I have no idea what they mean. I know PDFs and word docs can be bigger than that (i guess they aren't part of the web page by apple's definition). If my html is 4 lines of javascript that generates 50MB of data, what happens?

    My guess was that it was the size of the transferred html - i'm assuming its held in some sort of buffer until rendering is complete, and there's a maximum buffer size. The 8 page limit is definitely a hard limit.
    08-24-2007 02:12 PM
  9. cmaier's Avatar
    I think, with the available evidence we have now, the burden of proof has shifted.

    Surur
    Everyone who actually is familiar with the mechanics of VM seems to think there is VM. This isn't a court of law, so I'm not going to get into burdens of proof, but I will say that one way or another we will get to the bottom of this in the near future. While it seems demand paging must be happening if he was able to fill up memory without going over (if it was just dumping tabs, the quantum would have been more than 1MB!), I agree that we need either a direct answer from apple or we need to allocate and use more than 128MB in a controlled way and see what happens, preferably with top.
    08-24-2007 02:16 PM
  10. oalvarez's Avatar
    "incredibly great internet experience" and EDGE surely do not go together.
    all i know is what i experience on my iPhone, and compared to all other devices i've owned, the iPhone offers me the greatest internet experience of them all. edge has worked just fine up to now and when in and around wi-fi spots (which seems to be more and more of the time) it's even better.

    for me the iPhone offers a great internet experience (on a pocketable cell device). :thumbsup:
    08-24-2007 04:13 PM
  11. whmurray's Avatar
    You only had <8GB on your 40GB iPod?
    I am old and I drink. What can I tell you? More than half of my music is on vinyl. I just bought an appliance to convert those to digital.
    08-24-2007 04:26 PM
  12. whmurray's Avatar
    "incredibly great internet experience" and EDGE surely do not go together.
    True but because we have wifi, we at least know what it would look like if it was 3G.

    In my market, AT&T is promoting their PC Card but they are silent on speed.
    08-24-2007 04:32 PM
  13. braj's Avatar
    I am old and I drink.
    Good answer :thumbsup:
    08-24-2007 08:03 PM
  14. braj's Avatar
    why can't you control it in your pocket? that's what the button on the earphones is for, no?
    ff::rw::stop:lay from your pocket? I just think hard buttons are really good for transport controls personally. I know they only put one button on there for the dumbest among us and for style too I guess, but I would rather they had just used more buttons.
    08-24-2007 08:06 PM
  15. oalvarez's Avatar
    would additional buttons have made you a buyer? hec, if you like buttons, run out and get yourself a Mogul, it has tons of them!
    08-24-2007 08:11 PM
  16. braj's Avatar
    would additional buttons have made you a buyer? hec, if you like buttons, run out and get yourself a Mogul, it has tons of them!
    3rd party apps would have made me a buyer. I bought a Treo once they announced there would be no sanctioned 3rd party app support. But this is about it being the best iPod ever, and I would say a standard iPod is a better music player because of the buttons and storage, so that isn't really accurate IMO. It is the best mobile phone media player by far though.

    That said, my first iPod (rev2) came with transport controls on a dongle that plugged into the headphone jack, with a nice little clip. My wife uses it now and I haven't gotten an iPod replacement (beyond my Palms). Why didn't they just include something like that? Are they still shipping those with new iPods? I would consider that more 'buttons' as it would nicely serve the purpose.
    08-24-2007 08:25 PM
  17. oalvarez's Avatar
    i see. you said you would have preferred more buttons but now answer with the 3rd party apps response. so i take it that you would prefer more buttons and 3rd party apps. since the iPhone only has a couple of buttons and no third party apps i suppose it's not for you.

    there are many devices out there with "lots of buttons" that allow 3rd party apps. i suspect you own one of those.


    ff::rw::stop:lay from your pocket? I just think hard buttons are really good for transport controls personally. I know they only put one button on there for the dumbest among us and for style too I guess, but I would rather they had just used more buttons.
    08-24-2007 09:16 PM
  18. cmaier's Avatar
    ff::rw::stop:lay from your pocket? I just think hard buttons are really good for transport controls personally. I know they only put one button on there for the dumbest among us and for style too I guess, but I would rather they had just used more buttons.
    I agree to the extent that more controls would be nice; I assume someone, at some point, will come out with a remote like the one for ipods. Personally I tend to play/stop/skip, which is all you can do with the current button.
    08-24-2007 09:24 PM
  19. braj's Avatar
    i see. you said you would have preferred more buttons but now answer with the 3rd party apps response. so i take it that you would prefer more buttons and 3rd party apps. since the iPhone only has a couple of buttons and no third party apps i suppose it's not for you.

    there are many devices out there with "lots of buttons" that allow 3rd party apps. i suspect you own one of those.
    No, you don't see (that's not surprising really). You asked if more buttons would have made me a buyer, which isn't my primary reason for not buying an iPhone. 3rd party app support (or the lack of it) was what determined it for me. I was stating that from my perspective it wasn't the greatest iPod Apple ever made, because of the limitations with the UI, specifically lack of buttons. Since I don't buy phones primarily to play music it wouldn't bug me much that it was lacking buttons (for the iPod functionality anyway). But I would prefer more buttons as I think the reasons Apple included only one button were rather silly, ie. for dumb people who get confused easily and for style over functionality.

    I'm not looking for something necessarily with 101 buttons but 2 to 4 more would have been handy.
    08-24-2007 09:39 PM
  20. cmaier's Avatar
    No, you don't see (that's not surprising really). You asked if more buttons would have made me a buyer, which isn't my primary reason for not buying an iPhone. 3rd party app support (or the lack of it) was what determined it for me. I was stating that from my perspective it wasn't the greatest iPod Apple ever made, because of the limitations with the UI, specifically lack of buttons. Since I don't buy phones primarily to play music it wouldn't bug me much that it was lacking buttons (for the iPod functionality anyway). But I would prefer more buttons as I think the reasons Apple included only one button were rather silly, ie. for dumb people who get confused easily and for style over functionality.

    I'm not looking for something necessarily with 101 buttons but 2 to 4 more would have been handy.
    Looking at the dissected iphone photos, i think the real reason there's only one button is lack of space.

    By the way, you are clear on the fact that the button on the headset does pause/play/skip?
    08-24-2007 10:20 PM
  21. braj's Avatar
    By the way, you are clear on the fact that the button on the headset does pause/play/skip?
    Yeah, add skip backwards and it would be much better, ie. lots of times while listening to music I get interrupted and then want to restart a song. Anyway it isn't the end of the world or anything.
    08-24-2007 10:29 PM
  22. cmaier's Avatar
    i think the remote is the best way to go (they still sell them for ipods, but don't pack them in i think). If the phone is in your pocket, buttons or not, it's hard to hit the controls.

    I hope they come out with one that works on the phone; maybe sept.8 when they announce the new ipods.
    08-24-2007 10:31 PM
  23. bruckwine's Avatar
    3rd party apps would have made me a buyer. I bought a Treo once they announced there would be no sanctioned 3rd party app support. But this is about it being the best iPod ever, and I would say a standard iPod is a better music player because of the buttons and storage, so that isn't really accurate IMO. It is the best mobile phone media player by far though.

    That said, my first iPod (rev2) came with transport controls on a dongle that plugged into the headphone jack, with a nice little clip. My wife uses it now and I haven't gotten an iPod replacement (beyond my Palms). Why didn't they just include something like that? Are they still shipping those with new iPods? I would consider that more 'buttons' as it would nicely serve the purpose.
    i see. you said you would have preferred more buttons but now answer with the 3rd party apps response. so i take it that you would prefer more buttons and 3rd party apps. since the iPhone only has a couple of buttons and no third party apps i suppose it's not for you.

    there are many devices out there with "lots of buttons" that allow 3rd party apps. i suspect you own one of those.
    How come you never get the point? Surur restated Jobs' claim on the 3 things the iPhone would bring 1. best cellphone 2. best iPod and 3. best mobile internet...

    Braj is obviously disputing statement 2 by showing that previous iPods do the job better with larger storage and more control via buttons/clickwheel..

    YOU ask him if he'd have bought the iPhone if it had buttons (completely off-topic from his original post), he says no he wants 3rd party apps first ...and you some how extrapolate that to his saying it's no the best iPod? I'm glad you're rich (as you allude to) because if you ever have to go to court you'll need a lawyer!
    08-24-2007 11:03 PM
  24. oalvarez's Avatar
    huh?
    08-24-2007 11:45 PM
  25. oalvarez's Avatar
    How come you never get the point? Surur restated Jobs' claim on the 3 things the iPhone would bring 1. best cellphone 2. best iPod and 3. best mobile internet...

    Braj is obviously disputing statement 2 by showing that previous iPods do the job better with larger storage and more control via buttons/clickwheel..

    YOU ask him if he'd have bought the iPhone if it had buttons (completely off-topic from his original post), he says no he wants 3rd party apps first ...and you some how extrapolate that to his saying it's no the best iPod? I'm glad you're rich (as you allude to) because if you ever have to go to court you'll need a lawyer!
    please read before commenting.....i wasn't commenting on anything Surur said but a direct response from Braj....i had responded to Surur's comments many posts earlier. Braj made a comment regarding having wished that the iPhone had "more buttons". and what is it with your stupid comments regarding to "being rich" and "needing a lawyer"? have you lost your mind? calm yourself......and please stop with the false remarks (" rich as i allude to?????) unless you'd like to have the same done unto you. and why are you responding? was anything addressed to you? have you been enjoying too much of what the carribbean has to offer or has the hurricane left you dizzied? lay off. :evil: :shake:

    ff::rw::stop:lay from your pocket? I just think hard buttons are really good for transport controls personally. I know they only put one button on there for the dumbest among us and for style too I guess, but I would rather they had just used more buttons.
    08-24-2007 11:53 PM
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