1. Malatesta's Avatar
    Do you really consider those "features"? they should've been there from the start (esp. considering its apple products) and them allowing that is not what I would call a new phone feature, esp if it cannot be used outside of the iBubble. And that is a general criticism of ALL manufacturers/producers/companies who come out with something like louder volume or such and cal it a new feature. The iPhone already had wifi and Edge so why couldn't it sync with .mac before? Cut & paste or video camera (through some firmware of course ) etc would be a real update (imho mind you - let's not wiki this one to death!).
    eh, I wouldn't beat him up on that as it's a nice little addition. Of course, it is becoming quite evident that indeed the iPhone was forced into production before they could really finish the feature set.

    As you pointed out, this doesn't seem to big of a deal not to have out the gates, so why do it now? OTOH, I'm sure there will be lots of these trickling out as development on their end progresses. It seems you are also forced to have a .mac account for this to work. I suppose it's not that different from MS Live (MSN, push LiveMail, etc.) on WM6 devices (actually, thankfully it looks like Palm took it out of the 750 WM6: wise move, imo).

    The Foleo is basically in the same boat: it's being released, due to competition, under-spec'd and not really 1.0, with resulting frequent updates expected to be released along the way.
    08-07-2007 10:53 PM
  2. bruckwine's Avatar
    eh, I wouldn't beat him up on that as it's a nice little addition. Of course, it is becoming quite evident that indeed the iPhone was forced into production before they could really finish the feature set.

    As you pointed out, this doesn't seem to big of a deal not to have out the gates, so why do it now? OTOH, I'm sure there will be lots of these trickling out as development on their end progresses. It seems you are also forced to have a .mac account for this to work. I suppose it's not that different from MS Live (MSN, push LiveMail, etc.) on WM6 devices (actually, thankfully it looks like Palm took it out of the 750 WM6: wise move, imo).

    The Foleo is basically in the same boat: it's being released, due to competition, under-spec'd and not really 1.0, with resulting frequent updates expected to be released along the way.
    Don't get me wrong I'm not "beating up on" cmaier..I'm just surprised that companies like MSFT and APPL can keep using marketing gimmicks like this (calling them new features) and that ppl uby into it. I also don't re. consider things like MSN Live as features of any winmobile hardware. A new feature to me would be if the iPhone could now do AD2P bt stereo, or if the iPod could now play .wmv and .avi...not that another piece of software (.mac, iWorks etc) now cater for it - I consider those new features on the OTHER software/hardware if anything rather than a new iPhone feature.
    08-07-2007 11:05 PM
  3. cmaier's Avatar
    Don't get me wrong I'm not "beating up on" cmaier..I'm just surprised that companies like MSFT and APPL can keep using marketing gimmicks like this (calling them new features) and that ppl uby into it. I also don't re. consider things like MSN Live as features of any winmobile hardware. A new feature to me would be if the iPhone could now do AD2P bt stereo, or if the iPod could now play .wmv and .avi...not that another piece of software (.mac, iWorks etc) now cater for it - I consider those new features on the OTHER software/hardware if anything rather than a new iPhone feature.
    sort of felt like "beating up" from where i'm sitting, but whatever. this feature is of no use to me (though i tried browsing their test gallery and it really is very nicely done), but it's still a "feature."

    What's also interesting is, apparently, it was already on the phone - no new firmware was needed. It looks like it was on a timer or something.

    I've said all along I expect a lot of new stuff to come out when leopard comes out, since they share a lot of code; this is just another case of iphone stuff being "released" when the desktop part was ready as well.
    08-08-2007 01:10 AM
  4. surur's Avatar
    I've said all along I expect a lot of new stuff to come out when leopard comes out, since they share a lot of code; this is just another case of iphone stuff being "released" when the desktop part was ready as well.
    This is surely a joke. The platforms may share design intentions, but I would be really surprised if a memory constrained ARM device with a limited interface and slow processor share much code at all with its desktop counterpart.

    I mean, where's iTunes for the iPhone, unless thats a Leopard feature too.

    Surur
    08-08-2007 02:32 AM
  5. oalvarez's Avatar
    is it truly memory constrained? i've been trying out a Sprint Mogul and it truly does slow to a standstill if the user doesn't keep after the open programs but i yet to cause my iPhone to stop functioning because of my usage (yes, i understand other users have experienced Safari crashes and the like). anyhow, could the iPhone simply do a better job of managing memory or open programs? just askin'.
    08-08-2007 07:32 AM
  6. surur's Avatar
    is it truly memory constrained? i've been trying out a Sprint Mogul and it truly does slow to a standstill if the user doesn't keep after the open programs but i yet to cause my iPhone to stop functioning because of my usage (yes, i understand other users have experienced Safari crashes and the like). anyhow, could the iPhone simply do a better job of managing memory or open programs? just askin'.
    The iPhone has 128 MB memory. Many people are experiencing problems related to opening large web pages, glitches building up when the device is not rebooted after a few days, and inability to reliably use Ipod and Safari at the same time. These all strongly suggest memory management problems.

    Do you still have your Mongul then? I thought you returned it 2 days ago now.

    Surur
    08-08-2007 08:28 AM
  7. cmaier's Avatar
    This is surely a joke. The platforms may share design intentions, but I would be really surprised if a memory constrained ARM device with a limited interface and slow processor share much code at all with its desktop counterpart.

    I mean, where's iTunes for the iPhone, unless thats a Leopard feature too.

    Surur
    as the tuaw (and other) hackers have shown, many of the libraries are identical (in many cases merely a subset) of their desktop counterparts. This is why objective-c programmers with familiarity with the desktop libraries have been able to pick up coding so fast.

    by "shared code" i really refer to the @interfaces. I'm sure @implementations are, by necessity, quite different.
    08-08-2007 09:31 AM
  8. cmaier's Avatar
    The iPhone has 128 MB memory. Many people are experiencing problems related to opening large web pages, glitches building up when the device is not rebooted after a few days, and inability to reliably use Ipod and Safari at the same time. These all strongly suggest memory management problems.

    Do you still have your Mongul then? I thought you returned it 2 days ago now.

    Surur
    Note that the 128 MB is physical memory. Given that the processor's address space is far larger than that and given that the OS shares many stripped-and-recompiled components with OS X, it might very well support virtual memory (I've seen only speculation with regard to this, however.) I did read threads on howardforums and macrumors that indicated people who had more or less filled up their 4GB or 8GB were having more "memory-related" symptoms than those who did not. (I have about 1.25GB free and haven't had to do any reboots except for an IMAP issue where it caches DNS and if your imap server changes IP it gets confused - this seems like it may have been fixed in 1.0.1 however). If there really is a corrolation, it might come down to running out of virtual memory.
    08-08-2007 09:40 AM
  9. surur's Avatar
    We speculated about virtual memory in this thread, and I said due to performance issues related to slow NAND speeds, this was very unlikely. I have seen to reason to change this opinion.

    Surur
    08-08-2007 10:22 AM
  10. surur's Avatar
    Its funny when people try and explore the more advanced aspects of the iPhone and find absolutely nothing...

    - I just paired iPhone to powerbook. does nothing.

    japasneezemonk 08-07-2007 10:22 PM

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    I just paired iPhone to powerbook. does nothing.

    I was excited for a few minutes. I had tried it before, and it had not worked. Now it paired, but did little else.


    siurpeeman 08-07-2007 10:25 PM

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    it'd be nice if it worked with address book, all the features steve jobs touted when jaguar was released. i'd love to initiate a call from my mac or be alerted to a call on my computer screen. i'm hoping it'll be added in an update.

    FreeState 08-07-2007 10:40 PM

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    I wish it just synced with .Mac - I usually only plug my phone in to sync contacts etc. Now with the photo to .mac option announced today if it synced with .mac for contacts etc it would be a great enhancement.

    pdpfilms 08-07-2007 10:50 PM

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    Quote:

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    Originally Posted by siurpeeman (Post 4016988)
    it'd be nice if it worked with address book, all the features steve jobs touted when jaguar was released. i'd love to initiate a call from my mac or be alerted to a call on my computer screen. i'm hoping it'll be added in an update.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I was so completely surprised not to see these features built in.

    If they aren't implemented before iPhone gen2, I'll be supremely disappointed.
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=338762

    Surur
    08-08-2007 10:24 AM
  11. cmaier's Avatar
    We speculated about virtual memory in this thread, and I said due to performance issues related to slow NAND speeds, this was very unlikely. I have seen to reason to change this opinion.

    Surur
    NAND speeds are far faster than disk speeds, and every desktop uses disk for virtual memory. A typical hard drive has, what, 5-10 ms access time? A typical nand-flash drive is around 0.1ms read access time? (The actual numbers vary, and probably have gotten better since the last time I looked, but the difference is still large.).

    Additionally, it is clear that iphone programs can load files much larger than 128MB. So either every one of those programs is paging on its own, or the OS is doing the paging. Given that the code for paging already existed in the OS kernel, I'm guessing they wouldn't be eager to reinvent the wheel.
    08-08-2007 10:28 AM
  12. surur's Avatar
    NAND speeds are far faster than disk speeds, and every desktop uses disk for virtual memory. A typical hard drive has, what, 5-10 ms access time? A typical nand-flash drive is around 0.1ms read access time? (The actual numbers vary, and probably have gotten better since the last time I looked, but the difference is still large.).

    Additionally, it is clear that iphone programs can load files much larger than 128MB. So either every one of those programs is paging on its own, or the OS is doing the paging. Given that the code for paging already existed in the OS kernel, I'm guessing they wouldn't be eager to reinvent the wheel.
    NAND may have fast access times, but read times are pretty slow. Look it up.

    From Wikipedia:
    Slower than conventional disks on sequential I/O, the latest perpendicular hard disks doing about 150 Megabytes/sec read, with the latest SSDs doing about 50 Megabytes/sec read.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_state_disk

    Re reading large files, the iPhone is obviously streaming from storage. It does not handle large web pages with many pictures very well for example, implying there is no paging.

    Surur
    08-08-2007 10:58 AM
  13. surur's Avatar
    There are 3 things amusing about this thread quoted. 1) The reliance on buttons to resuscitate the mostly button-less iPhone 2) The flawed belief the iPhone required free storage to function properly, implying some kind of virtual memory. I call that voodoo thinking. 3) 3rd party apps being blamed for the ills of the iPhone, despite there being no sanctioned SDK. Jobs' attempt to avoid the 3rd party software debacle has clearly failed.

    - IPHONE CRASHED, locked up, will not do anything

    Cody_300ex 07-04-2007 01:14

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    IPHONE CRASHED, locked up, will not do anything

    I was looking threw my missed calls and it locked up, i have tried pluging it in the computer, car charger, holding the power button down, everything. It will not budge. This is my bussiness phone so i need help ASAP!!!

    mike772 07-04-2007 01:16

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    Try a reset hold sleep + home until it reboots.

    Jay05 07-04-2007 01:16

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    This happened to me too. Hold the power button (top of phone) and the home button at the bottom of the phone at the same time. This will hard reset it.

    I wasn't taking chances. I took the phone back to the Apple store where I bought it and exchanged it.

    foofighter 07-04-2007 01:22

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    i had mine lock up as well during some email viewing and it locked up and i held down the home button and it fixed it.

    Cody_300ex 07-04-2007 01:45

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    thanks so much guys, its back up and running again.

    mike772 07-04-2007 01:53

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    Glad to hear!

    spaztaz 07-04-2007 02:16

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    aahh this happened to me man. my iphone has been freezing on and off for hte past day and half and i cant exhcnage it yet becuase my apple store is sold out

    Crysis6 08-08-2007 05:57

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    Mine is doing it too. Any reason why this is occurring??? I guess I'll have to exchange. Ughh What a pain.

    Fray Adjacent 08-08-2007 06:25

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    Guys, if it's locking up, first off, shut it off, then turn it back on. You should do this every couple days. After all, the iPhone IS a computer, and most modern OSs need to be restarted.

    If the lockups keep happening, do a restore.

    THEN if they keep happening, I'd consider an exchange.

    scaredpoet 08-08-2007 13:39

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    Out of curiosity, how "full" do you guys have your iPhone? Is it filled up to the brim with songs/videos/photos? If so, I'm thinking the problem might be that phone needs a small amount of memory free as overhead. This is pretty common for OS X, the operating system running on this phone. Try leaving a couple of MB free and see what happens.

    mjs975s 08-08-2007 14:05

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    I'm interested to see if any of these are "hacked" or have "unsupported" modifications made such as custom ringtones.
    http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=1193742

    Surur
    08-08-2007 11:04 AM
  14. cmaier's Avatar
    even if the wikipedia numbers are true (those are bandwidth, not access time, of course), 50MB/s is still as fast as a lot of hard disks still in use (you are comparing to 'the latest perpendicular hard disks,' presumably with sata-300 since that's how most of those are sold). For example, here is samsung, about a year ago, claiming their ssd's have higher bandwidth than normal hard drives: http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/3030. They cite similar bandwidth numbers for SSD, which means they are probably not comparing to "the latest" perpendicular hard drives.

    And given that the processor is only 600MHz or so, that's plenty fast (the slower the processor, the less relative penalty for a given slow memory access).

    in any event, while we don't know the specifications of the flash in the iphone, it seems likely it falls into the realm of at least slower disk drives, and thus would work fine for virtual memory. (PC's have had virtual memory for far longer than perpendicular hard drives have existed).

    You assert "does not handle large web pages with many pictures..." Can you point me at a page so i can try it? I've loaded some awfully big photo galleries without a problem. (The limitation i've seen is on a single large photo, but only when that photo is an animated gif.)

    I've also loaded more than one 300MB pdf in separate safari tabs and been able to tab instantly between the tabs, and, within a document, flick from page to page. I hardly think it's "obviously streaming." (I'm not sure whether by "streaming" you mean that in a technical sense or not. note that virtual memory does not mean using the nand as if it is RAM - it means moving pages back and forth between RAM and the nand. The cpu always accesses RAM, never the nand.)
    08-08-2007 11:13 AM
  15. cmaier's Avatar
    ps: why "voodoo thinking?" LOTS of people have reported instability related to their phones being full.

    You refuse to believe that's a possibility, but you believe it when the same quantity of people claim their phone crashes daily?

    And why do you believe in "streaming" but not virtual memory? The end effect is the same (keeping things on nand until they are needed by the processor, then moving them to RAM) but the work for the programmers in implementing "streaming" is far more difficult than implementing virtual memory (for which they already had source code).
    08-08-2007 11:16 AM
  16. surur's Avatar
    With streaming of course I am talking about large sequential media files, like video. It is interesting that you can load 300 MB pdf's (how did you do this?) but perhaps this was also decoded on a page by page basis. I was wondering to what depth you could zoom those pdf's? Are they also just x2, or can you zoom a very large picture (like a pdf of the london underground) to pixel level?

    I would personally be surprised if the NAND built into the iPhone was faster than most or close to equivalent speed to an average HDD. Very soon the first benchmarks of the device will be available, due to the pervasive hacking taking place.

    Re the voodoo stuff, I think people are mis-attributing their problems to the only factor they actually have any control over, being the amount of content on the device. Managing the space is their only hammer, and this makes all their stability problems nails.

    Surur
    08-08-2007 11:31 AM
  17. oalvarez's Avatar
    The iPhone has 128 MB memory. Many people are experiencing problems related to opening large web pages, glitches building up when the device is not rebooted after a few days, and inability to reliably use Ipod and Safari at the same time. These all strongly suggest memory management problems.

    Do you still have your Mongul then? I thought you returned it 2 days ago now.

    Surur
    i do have the Mogul, it is in its box, as i did/do plan on returning it. i asked my IT department to check into "blackberry connect" given that the Mogul could definitely not handle running Goodlink (client app) given it's inability to function very well when the memory gets low. i personally don't care for a business device that i have to continuously shut apps down to be able to run some other (or not even be able to open them up!).

    you count the days from which i said something? surprised you pay that much attention to my posts
    08-08-2007 11:50 AM
  18. cmaier's Avatar
    With streaming of course I am talking about large sequential media files, like video. It is interesting that you can load 300 MB pdf's (how did you do this?) but perhaps this was also decoded on a page by page basis. I was wondering to what depth you could zoom those pdf's? Are they also just x2, or can you zoom a very large picture (like a pdf of the london underground) to pixel level?

    I would personally be surprised if the NAND built into the iPhone was faster than most or close to equivalent speed to an average HDD. Very soon the first benchmarks of the device will be available, due to the pervasive hacking taking place.

    Re the voodoo stuff, I think people are mis-attributing their problems to the only factor they actually have any control over, being the amount of content on the device. Managing the space is their only hammer, and this makes all their stability problems nails.

    Surur
    So are you suggesting the iPhone NAND is slower than the wikipedia numbers, because I doubt that.
    And I'm happy to point you at year old hdd specs.

    EDIT: and all that's sort of moot. The point is that the bandwidth ballpark is at least the same (the peak burst speed of SATA-150 would be 3x the peak of NAND if you believe the wiki, and HDD's don't reach the interface burst rate, which is one of the reasons why PATA/133 is about the same "speed" as SATA-150), and, in fact, latency is much smaller in NAND - whether latency or bandwidth is more important is a function of page size and hit rate). Furthermore, a slower-clocked processor can achieve the same benefit with slower virtual memory (think of it this way - no point in rushing to get things to the CPU if the CPU is too busy to do anything with it). All of which tells me only that iphone would benefit from using virtual memory in NAND, not that it actually does so. What makes me think it actually does so is programmer laziness - it would be more work for everyone involved if it did not do so.

    pdfs: I can zoom far more than x2 - looks like x10ish (i can see zoom to where i can see about 6 or 7 vertical lines of text). Fwiw acrobat is using 1.2 gb loading the same pages

    As for how, I simply access my doc mgmt system at work.
    08-08-2007 12:04 PM
  19. surur's Avatar
    So are you suggesting the iPhone NAND is slower than the wikipedia numbers, because I doubt that.
    And I'm happy to point you at year old hdd specs.

    EDIT: and all that's sort of moot. The point is that the bandwidth ballpark is at least the same (the peak burst speed of SATA-150 would be 3x the peak of NAND if you believe the wiki, and HDD's don't reach the interface burst rate, which is one of the reasons why PATA/133 is about the same "speed" as SATA-150), and, in fact, latency is much smaller in NAND - whether latency or bandwidth is more important is a function of page size and hit rate). Furthermore, a slower-clocked processor can achieve the same benefit with slower virtual memory (think of it this way - no point in rushing to get things to the CPU if the CPU is too busy to do anything with it). All of which tells me only that iphone would benefit from using virtual memory in NAND, not that it actually does so. What makes me think it actually does so is programmer laziness - it would be more work for everyone involved if it did not do so.
    The reason why I doubt the iPhone uses virtual memory is that embedded devices very rarely do. As you pointed out, at best its as fast as a HDD, and at worse much slower. Even with a fast HDD paging is a pain (which is why I turned it of on my XP box). For embedded devices where instant response is expected loading memory pages from VM is usually not tolerable.

    BTW, the iPhone does not use some super-optimized NAND chip, its the same one as the 8 GB Ipod Nano.

    pdfs: I can zoom far more than x2 - looks like x10ish (i can see zoom to where i can see about 6 or 7 vertical lines of text). Fwiw acrobat is using 1.2 gb loading the same pages

    As for how, I simply access my doc mgmt system at work.
    Presumable you did not wait 5 minutes for the PDF to download to safari before it showed up, again implying the PDF was being loaded page by page from the web.

    Surur
    08-08-2007 01:20 PM
  20. cmaier's Avatar
    The reason why I doubt the iPhone uses virtual memory is that embedded devices very rarely do. As you pointed out, at best its as fast as a HDD, and at worse much slower. Even with a fast HDD paging is a pain (which is why I turned it of on my XP box). For embedded devices where instant response is expected loading memory pages from VM is usually not tolerable.

    BTW, the iPhone does not use some super-optimized NAND chip, its the same one as the 8 GB Ipod Nano.



    Presumable you did not wait 5 minutes for the PDF to download to safari before it showed up, again implying the PDF was being loaded page by page from the web.

    Surur
    Actually, i did wait quite awhile for the documents to fully load (an annoyingly long time, but I didn't stopwatch it). It's loaded as a pdf, not an image, and the website has no facility for providing one page at a time (it simply supplies the entire pdf file), so not sure what you are suggesting.

    I am not suggesting a super-optimized NAND chip. Any NAND chip will have a far smaller (factor of 10'ish) latency than any hard disk drive. Hard disks will always be at a disadvantage since they require a disk to mechanically rotate. As for bandwidth, again, I have no idea what the bandwidth is on the ipod or iphone flash, so I am just relying on the wikipedia "50" number (confirmed by random clicks on a google search, one such example i already provided), which, again, is only a few times slower than perpendicular hdd's (which only became widely available in the last year or so).

    As for disabling virtual memory speeding up your computer, it depends. If properly implemented (for example, on Solaris or usually on linux) this shouldn't happen, because nothing ever gets paged to disk unless RAM is "full." So you shouldn't start hitting virtual memory until you exceed the capacity of physical memory.

    Windows (at least as late as XP) seems to "mirror" the physical memory space into the virtual memory file, which would be much slower, as you are accessing disk even when you aren't exceeding the capacity of physical memory. They may have changed this recently - the last time I studied windows' memory architecture was with windows NT.

    As a result, properly implemented virtual memory has no down side - you only pay a speed penalty when you would have otherwise run out of memory anyway. The only reason I can think of not to have implemented it is if they are worried about the number of write-cycles-before-failure on the NAND.

    And "embedded devices rarely do" doesn't convince me one way or the other. Some embedded devices certainly do. Apple TV definitely does (another "strip stuff out of the OS" science project.) It's definitely supported by the processor and memory controller, the operating system it is based on (OSX) definitely supports it (and it really is a subset of real OSX based on directory listings and already-discovered API interfaces), and it would require more work to disable it than to leave it in there.

    Embedded devices rarely have capacitive multitouch screens, either, but this one certainly does.

    Anyway, it very well might not have virtual memory enabled, but I just don't see any real technical reason that it couldn't.
    08-08-2007 02:20 PM
  21. Mike Overbo's Avatar
    My guess is that the system pages apps in and out of memory as needed. If it didn't page, why wouldn't it be able to handle scrolling large sites in memory while in iSafari without resorting to the checkerboard screen when scrolling fast?
    08-08-2007 04:05 PM
  22. cmaier's Avatar
    http://download.micron.com/pdf/techn...and/tn2904.pdf

    This is a micron technical spec for 2GB nand flash that it claims is comparable to samsung's parts. I believe these specs are representative of what is used in the ipod/iphone.

    They cite a 30ns read cycle time, and they have either an 8- or 16-bit bus. Assuming 16bits, that's 2B/30ns = 6.66e8B/s = 63 MB/s (depending on how you define a megabyte). Definitely in the ballpark of the 50MB/s claimed in the wikipedia page.

    So no "magic superduper nand" is required to get pretty decent read performance. Write may be another matter entirely.
    08-08-2007 07:25 PM
  23. bruckwine's Avatar
    sort of felt like "beating up" from where i'm sitting, but whatever. this feature is of no use to me (though i tried browsing their test gallery and it really is very nicely done), but it's still a "feature."

    What's also interesting is, apparently, it was already on the phone - no new firmware was needed. It looks like it was on a timer or something.

    I've said all along I expect a lot of new stuff to come out when leopard comes out, since they share a lot of code; this is just another case of iphone stuff being "released" when the desktop part was ready as well.
    That may be due to the general mood of the last few pages..but all i said was "do you really consider those "features" and then explained that I was aiming at the companies who pull that kinda stunt. I apologize if you took that for a personal attack!

    And back to the point - I am not surprised it was already on the phone - it's basically syncing with the internet(.Mac) which it's supposed to do with the hardware there already..it's mre like they turned on a feature at .mac rather than the iPhone, as the iPhone could already use the internet no?
    08-08-2007 08:19 PM
  24. cmaier's Avatar
    That may be due to the general mood of the last few pages..but all i said was "do you really consider those "features" and then explained that I was aiming at the companies who pull that kinda stunt. I apologize if you took that for a personal attack!

    And back to the point - I am not surprised it was already on the phone - it's basically syncing with the internet(.Mac) which it's supposed to do with the hardware there already..it's mre like they turned on a feature at .mac rather than the iPhone, as the iPhone could already use the internet no?
    Something had to turn on at the iphone side as a new option appeared when you click the "send" button on a photo (on the iphone).
    08-08-2007 08:52 PM
  25. bruckwine's Avatar
    Something had to turn on at the iphone side as a new option appeared when you click the "send" button on a photo (on the iphone).
    Most def...but when OS X or XP/Vista adds more OS options e.g. iphone sync, MSN live etc I never consider those as features per se.
    08-08-2007 09:22 PM
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