Is the iPhone an unfinished product?

Malatesta

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Have you been following this forum? I think this is the most anti-Apple discussion group outside of Microsoft. When has Apple gotten a free pass here?
I'm speaking of people like yourself, oalvarez and Archie who quickly condemn other devices as inferior for various reasons. But when Apple doesn't include things like an IM client, MMS, Video, A2DP, voice dialing, contact searching, etc. it is quickly waved off, using the "not many people need that or use that" excuse.

That is, it seems the iPhone "lovers" (adopting similar language to your own) do not seem to express a single ounce of surprise when some of these basic and simple features are left out of the "5 years ahead of its time" iPhone. It's as if Apple can do no wrong.

What would happen if Palm released a device today without all of that? Would people here and potential buyers say "well no one really uses it that..."? I don't think so.
The real question is this:

What if the iPhone is a mass seller and the public accepts it by selling out or by outselling the Treo? Will the anti-iPhone haters in the forum accept that Apple made a product the public wants and concede that point or simply ignore it and still point out it doesn't have feature "X"?
It's easy to make straw-man arguments.

Has anyone here denied that the iPhone will sell? That people won't buy and love it (especially those coming from a normal flip phone)? I know I haven't, neither has Surur.

If you disagree, show where any of us have posited otherwise.

This is diverging from the topic here though: Did Apple rush the product to market, overlooking some simple features?

Yes or No.

If they later add them, what does that mean for your above answer?
 

beachtrader

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I'm speaking of people like yourself, oalvarez and Archie who quickly condemn other devices as inferior for various reasons. But when Apple doesn't include things like an IM client, MMS, Video, A2DP, voice dialing, contact searching, etc. it is quickly waved off, using the "not many people need that or use that" excuse.

That is, it seems the iPhone "lovers" (adopting similar language to your own) do not seem to express a single ounce of surprise when some of these basic and simple features are left out of the "5 years ahead of its time" iPhone.

What would happen if Palm released a device today without all of that? Would people here and potential buyers say "well no one really uses it that..."? I don't think so.

It's easy to make straw-man arguments.

Has anyone here denied that the iPhone will sell? That people won't buy and love it (especially those coming from a normal flip phone)?

No. If you disagree, show where any of us have posisited otherwise.

This is diverging from the topic here though: Did Apple rush the product to market, overlooking some simple features?

Yes or No.

If they later add them, what does that mean for your above answer?


You don't have a clue. I have no intention of buying the iPhone. LOL. It doesn't fit my needs. You, however, assume I will be standing in line because I point out inconsistent arguments from people extrapolating their needs upon the entire market.

The question I asked is not a straw question. It's valid. But one the iPhone detractors will not address it because a lot of them are just seeking flame wars and thrive on it.

I answered in the beginning of the thread what I thought about the iPhone, finished or unfinished. Please go back and read the entire thread.

And yes, I do have a Treo, several of them. And yes, they have features missing which I considered basic. No one product answers all your dreams because: EACH PERSON IS DIFFERENT AND HAS DIFFERENT NEEDS.
 

Scott R

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For anyone who may not have seen this, here's Pogue's review which has some sample photos:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/27/t...gin&adxnnlx=1182992413-o/Mftqpx6oLuh9FmqioLNA

Several of them look pretty standard for a camera phone (i.e, they kinda suck), but there are a couple of really good ones. The last photo, in particular (the one of the little boy with a red shirt), looks really, really good and puts my Treo 700p's stinky camera to shame.

FWIW, I very rarely use my 700p's camera or video recording capabilities because they suck so very bad. I have used them on certain occasions when I didn't have anything better on hand and wanted to capture a moment (usually of my daughter). It saddens me that the quality was so poor that the end result really isn't worth saving long-term, IMO. I am not one who cares about megapixels. I'm perfectly happy with 1.3MP if the quality is good. Some of the early (as in several years ago) Kodak and Canon digicams that were "only" 1.3MP took far better photos than modern-day 2MP+ camera phones, and it makes me mad just thinking about it.
 

llarson

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So what everyone and I mean Surur, Mikec, Kupe want is...

Well, we live in a world where beta products are released and people pay premium prices.

Palm is guilty of this as much as anyone else.

I think the iPhone is being shipped to make the assertion of shipping in Q2. Steve drew the line in Jan, and come hell or high water, he will make the date.

I'm sure there will be all sorts of issues to be fixed, but they will still ship.

Would they like a few more months to tighten it up? Sure. But Steve said Q2.

I really don't fault Apple for any glitches or bug...they comes with the territory.

What unforgivable are the design issues:

- No 3G
- No replaceable battery
- No A2DP
- No cut and paste
- No 3rd party apps (open dev platform)
- Locked to carrier

Visual voicemail - whoo dee doo. Not enough to make me switch whole hog to ATT

A 700WX congrats guys they have them enjoy.
 

Malatesta

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You don't have a clue. I have no intention of buying the iPhone. LOL. It doesn't fit my needs. You, however, assume I will be standing in line because I point out inconsistent arguments from people extrapolating their needs upon the entire market.

The question I asked is not a straw question. It's valid. But one the iPhone detractors will not address it because a lot of them are just seeking flame wars and thrive on it.

I answered in the beginning of the thread what I thought about the iPhone, finished or unfinished. Please go back and read the entire thread.

And yes, I do have a Treo, several of them. And yes, they have features missing which I considered basic. No one product answers all your dreams because: EACH PERSON IS DIFFERENT AND HAS DIFFERENT NEEDS.
The question you asked though has been answered:

No one here denies that the iPhone will sell big-time, make money, be a success and have lots of happy people. No one.

But that is not the focus of this thread. If you want to really know, start a thread and throw up a poll--no one says you can't.

I guess I don't see the relevance of "EACH PERSON IS DIFFERENT AND HAS DIFFERENT NEEDS.". That much is obvious, but like I said...none of the iPhone "lovers" seemed a bit shocked that these things were not included. It's just excuse after excuse. Let Apple define what you do and don't need, end of story.

This has nothing to do with "hating Apple" as we could be talking about any smartphone in the year 2007 and I'd say the same thing e.g. does the Mogul have GPS or not? Why not? No different.
 

beachtrader

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EACH PERSON IS DIFFERENT AND HAS DIFFERENT NEEDS

This is completely relevant because so many people are saying the product is unfinished because it is missing feature X. To person Y, the product is unfinished. To person Z, who doesn't need that feature it's finished. That's why it is relevant.

The real question is was the iPhone released with the specs Apple intended it to be? My opinion, which I stated before, is yes. If you look closely at what Jobs is saying about the target market, not the hype, you can see he released the iPhone as a high end phone. Not a business device, not a PDA, but a unique combo of the iPod and a high end phone. Based upon that it isn't unfinished.

Now is Apple going to expand the software later? Absolutely. That's why it is running OSX. That lends itself to ease of expansion. But is the phone being released too early? Nope.

As for the iPhone lovers and haters. Both sides are ignorant to a degree. Taking an absolute position and ignoring rational arguments always lends itself to that. I think it is absurd that simply because a product is being released it doesn't need to be trashed as some are doing.
 

Malatesta

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I think it is absurd that simply because a product is being released it doesn't need to be trashed as some are doing.
Absolutely, but this is in part due to Apple and even they know it. When you whip up everyone in a frenzy and set expectations high, you will have these discussions and some blowback.

I can say at Sprintusers, for every device released these same discussions occur, though on a smaller scale.

All I'm saying about the unfinished issue is the obvious and non-controversial position: every smartphone is unfinished and if you ask the company/developers, they all want more time to perfect it before release. But due outside constraints, they are forced to "lock" the device and feature-set at stage "X" and have to put of Y and Z till later.

Some of us, namely myself, are just surprised at some of those features left out, that's all.
 

oalvarez

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Oh brother...why have a 2 MP camera on a phone if it can't do video? All SE have great cams(some even better than 2.0 MP) and can take video. My treo has crappy pics but it takes decent video... Anything that's done on a PHONE can be considered "unviewable"! My VGA treo cam takes pretty viewable video if you replay it at a max of half-screen on a 14" screen, and it looks jsut fine on what it wass made to be shown on a 2.5" screen...your "excuse" - once it's not DVD why bother, i.e. dodging the issue.

A picture is worth a thousand words, but a video is worth about a million. Apple messed up on that lack of feature imo. When ppl go to events they plan ahead so of course they can carry the best camera/phone etc..so then, why not carry a REAL standalone camera w/flash while you're at it as 2 MP blows anyway for anything moving and over 15 ft away w/o goodlight? How about having a landline available too as they cost less and have the best call quality available for communication? The reason is of course, convenience and for the unplanned and unexpected. Or does your life only consist of planned events?

I recall a cellphone video clip helped apprehend a criminal on a subway in New York a year or two back..they gave a pretty good video of the crime rather than a fuzzy pic of someone in motion(as the iPhone seems to do my all reports)..go figure! How dare they have that feature!

I do pray that for the sake of the ones going to pay that $500- 600 plus service that the updates DO allow that. If it is a HARDWARE design then you're set. Thank goodness for freedom of choice...Apple seems to be going to communist way - "have it our way or not at all" !

I don't mind ppl saying they don't use video - fine your choice, but don't be condescending and assuming that everyone elses phones are crap and useless and that you can use it as an opportunity to skirt around what is an obvious flaw in a supposedly "flawless" and "perfect" product.

I think Apple were behind schedule and decided to omit certain features due to market pressure, and are planning to supply SOME of them whenever they can via these "updates"...they've had to delay Leopard and now they have that to make a deadline with it in October.

If they don't provide some of the more demanded basic features (esp video :doh:) and the phone remains "crippled" wrt certain things considered standard in other contemporary cellphones then it is even worse on their design team and points to the fact that it IS all about money. Whatever happens no doubt you will see the improvements in the regular 6 month cycle ...

look, i don't know of many people that whip out their cell phone, pda, smartphone, whatever to take videos of important events. if you do, great, but i don't. i'm not sure consumer America goes out of the way to buy a cell phone device wondering what kind of video it's able to take. i'm not sure it's a real substitute, maybe in other parts of the world it is.
 

bruckwine

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look, i don't know of many people that whip out their cell phone, pda, smartphone, whatever to take videos of important events. if you do, great, but i don't. i'm not sure consumer America goes out of the way to buy a cell phone device wondering what kind of video it's able to take. i'm not sure it's a real substitute, maybe in other parts of the world it is.

Well it must be where I'm from eh? But you're probably right and the specs of any vid function is unimportant, but at least it is a choice no? I'd rather have a choice than none at all.

I'm sure ppl will take many pics more than they'll take vids when they have a camera phone capable of both...but if you take even one vid for every 100 pics you take then having the choice was worth it I think. I have a 5 MP camera and half the time I have to retake pics on that due to not liking them...I don't even consider using a cameraphone for similar purposes much less printing them.

In the same way video quality isn't an issue (i.e. i don't take vids with my camera to watch them on TV) and it's why i can enjoy my treo 680 - it increases the FUN and for a phone that is supposed to be FUN (in addition to functional) the iPhone left off a very fun feature imo.
 

Pearl_Diva

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The iPhone doesn't lack basic features, just the ones you deem important. For everyone else they seem fine with it.

Yes it does if there's no IM/MMS client. That's a basic on even dumbphones. I hope they just forgot to mention this in the specs or whatever, it really needs to be on there.
 

Pearl_Diva

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look, i don't know of many people that whip out their cell phone, pda, smartphone, whatever to take videos of important events. if you do, great, but i don't. i'm not sure consumer America goes out of the way to buy a cell phone device wondering what kind of video it's able to take. i'm not sure it's a real substitute, maybe in other parts of the world it is.

Where've you been? People do all the time. Maybe not necessarily weddings and stuff like that. But it is common for people to now be concerned with phone camera quality at the very least.

Although you have a point about US consumers being behind in technology.
 

bruckwine

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Where've you been? People do all the time. Maybe not necessarily weddings and stuff like that. But it is common for people to now be concerned with phone camera quality at the very least.

Although you have a point about US consumers being behind in technology.

That is valid isn't it? I saw a survey by Snapfish saying only 22% of ppl planned to use the video feature of any cameraphone they bought, while in japan it was something like 60% (different survey). So I guess the iPhone is perfect for the US..of course the survey was done back in 2005 so that opinion may have changed!
 

Pearl_Diva

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Forget about MMS/Video for a second...

- No select, copy, paste?
- No search contacts?

Those seem like two pretty big holes (which, granted can be fixed easily enough). If you have a lot of contacts that sure seems to be an annoyance. WM smartphones don't have cut/copy/paste either but their excuse was no touch screen, not sure why the iPhone left that out. Seems quite simple.

No search contacts??? Is that true? EEK if so!
 

Pearl_Diva

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That is valid isn't it? I saw a survey by Snapfish saying only 22% of ppl planned to use the video feature of any cameraphone they bought, while in japan it was something like 60% (different survey). So I guess the iPhone is perfect for the US..of course the survey was done back in 2005 so that opinion may have changed!

We are just getting around to using 3G full time. Japan is going to 4G or already there. I understand 3G is about a decade old in Europe. Only one example.

But when lookng at offerings overseas, we can see how behind we are. Truth be told, the iPhone is actually late to the music phone game(of course you know that). The only real advantage is the huge video viewing screen, but now what kind of video will it take? If it's restricted to iTunes DRM and/or format video, another restriction that makes it less user friendly.
 

oalvarez

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Well it must be where I'm from eh? But you're probably right and the specs of any vid function is unimportant, but at least it is a choice no? I'd rather have a choice than none at all.

I'm sure ppl will take many pics more than they'll take vids when they have a camera phone capable of both...but if you take even one vid for every 100 pics you take then having the choice was worth it I think. I have a 5 MP camera and half the time I have to retake pics on that due to not liking them...I don't even consider using a cameraphone for similar purposes much less printing them.

In the same way video quality isn't an issue (i.e. i don't take vids with my camera to watch them on TV) and it's why i can enjoy my treo 680 - it increases the FUN and for a phone that is supposed to be FUN (in addition to functional) the iPhone left off a very fun feature imo.

exactly....keep what it is that you enjoy and have the best success with. if the iPhone (or any other device) leaves out what you want, don't buy it.

look at how many Treos i have gone through. they just didn't work for me, that doesn't mean that they won't work for you. the arguement i have is when someone says they like the Treo because of its phone, email, and internet offerings. for those things out of the box, i can't understand why one would want to carry around what many around here consider an unstable, brick.
 

Certs

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A2DP, at the very least, should definitely be on this device. I can't see how that is even debated. It will not hurt sales, I reckon, but for apple to advertise it as "the best ipod we've ever created," that statement should be backed up with some new audio features. Not just UI features.

Apple has always stuck to the less is more/simpler is better philosophy. I at least agree with the latter.
 

oalvarez

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ya, millions of consumers are scratching their heads this evening wondering if they should pull the trigger on a new iPhone because it doesn't offer "A2DP"

lets count 'em
 

Pearl_Diva

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Quit being sarcastic to many of the posters! He's only expressing what he wanted to see on the iPhone, just like a lot of others.
 

Malatesta

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Remember, if the iPhone can not do it, oalvarez didn't want to do it in the first place and he's glad those lame features are not there. :p

Don't ask why there aren't features that you'd expect in a "5 years ahead of it's time" smartphone, you're not allowed to ask, even rhetorically. Don't question Jobs, he knows what you want and that's the end of it.

If you do, you're an iHater. No more discussion, forum closed. :thumbsup:

Edit: Speaking of features...lol

LED?
Obviously there is none and I'm glad not dumb blinking service LED (Sprint disabled those too).

But for notifications? How do you know you have new email, sms, or voicemail? Besides powering on the device, no other visual notifications? Does anyone know?
 

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