1. samkim's Avatar
    Good point. It does seem rather improbable that pushing harder on a glass screen would make a difference. It's also pretty obvious from the keynotes that neither Jobs nor Forstall were pushing the screen very hard (quite the opposite in fact).

    The 'need to push hard' thing seems just like the sort of mistake a faker that had only used a resistive screen would make, and I'm tending to the view the Engadget's 'very trusted inside source' is full of it.
    I can't speak for the credibility of the source, but the comment does make sense.

    The multi-touch screen, unlike other touch screens, senses multiple points of contact, so it likely can distinguish between a pin-point contact of the finger and a full-on press of the finger. I believe it was Apple (and not random speculators) who claimed that the iPhone could distinguish between deliberate presses and inadvertent contact. This could be how.
    06-25-2007 10:28 AM
  2. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Good point. It does seem rather improbable that pushing harder on a glass screen would make a difference. It's also pretty obvious from the keynotes that neither Jobs nor Forstall were pushing the screen very hard (quite the opposite in fact).

    The 'need to push hard' thing seems just like the sort of mistake a faker that had only used a resistive screen would make, and I'm tending to the view the Engadget's 'very trusted inside source' is full of it.
    I guess we will know Friday...but remember, people use of typing and touch screens do vary, and the amount of pressure varies. It may seem like it takes more pressure if the software is slow to recognize input; the person pushes harder after the initial touch, and suddenly there is a respone.

    That is why people wait for the "click" with tactile keyboards. With the absence of a click, you have to go visually.

    Let's see what Friday brings; Engadet is pretty good on checking sources, esp. after the phony Apple email sent to employees.

    My bet is this is genuine.
    06-25-2007 11:44 AM
  3. littlewaywelt's Avatar
    I read an interesting article (in popular science, I think a couple of issues back) about the next generation touch screens. Apparently they solve the tactile feedback/button issue by providing a small electrical stimulation where you press the key, so it tricks you into thinking you've pressed a button when you haven't.
    06-25-2007 12:08 PM
  4. marcol's Avatar
    Hmmm. I guess it could be some aspect of capacitive touch screens I don't get (I'm sure there are many), but as I understand it they work by transferring charge from the screen to the finger and don't rely on pressure per se at all. Of course the area of contact would increase with pressure up to a point, but wouldn't that point is very quickly reached without much pressure? (Try it and see!) I guess time of contact and resistance of the finger could make a difference (electron flow would probably by proportional to the former and inversely proportional to the latter) so maybe the 'source' has skin with particularly high resistance?

    Main evidence though, we've seen Jobs and Forstall using it and it really didn't seem to require much pressure at all. Seems to me hitting the wrong key rather than failing to get a response without high pressure would be the mostly likely problem (Forstall did).

    Anyway this is all a little pointless now and I agree that waiting for the reviews is much the best idea
    06-25-2007 12:14 PM
  5. marcol's Avatar
    I read an interesting article (in popular science, I think a couple of issues back) about the next generation touch screens. Apparently they solve the tactile feedback/button issue by providing a small electrical stimulation where you press the key, so it tricks you into thinking you've pressed a button when you haven't.
    Sounds a bit spooky. Never noticed that from the track pad on my laptop at least!
    06-25-2007 12:16 PM
  6. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    I read an interesting article (in popular science, I think a couple of issues back) about the next generation touch screens. Apparently they solve the tactile feedback/button issue by providing a small electrical stimulation where you press the key, so it tricks you into thinking you've pressed a button when you haven't.
    CAUTION: Do not use while standing in water! :evil:
    06-25-2007 09:21 PM
  7. MacUser's Avatar
    Totally OT, but MacUser you need to upgrade your avatar. (Not that there's anything wrong with a 12" PB...)
    LOL, I was thinking about that the other day. Maybe tomorrow I can snap a new shot of the MBP. That 12" PB was a workhorse for me...
    06-25-2007 09:37 PM
  8. archie's Avatar
    how does that make it a good BUSINESS product? Maybe that can make it a good phone, but I think for it to be categorised as a business product you need more compelling examples.
    I still maintain that the phone functionality and voicemail functionality is the number one business tool. Still:

    there is also the best mobile internet platform available with the desktop class functionality of AJAX and all the other web 2.0 crap,

    there is document viewing of formats like Word, Excel and PDFs,

    there is VPN connectivity via 2TP or PPTP over IPSEC,

    there is the Google Maps application for driving directions, trip planning, traffic visuals and co-pilot functionality for the business travelers...


    These are the main ones that come to mind right now.
    06-26-2007 01:29 AM
  9. chenling's Avatar
    Just saw the demo. Haven't been following iPhone threads, but...

    Is it just me, or can my 680 do 90% of the functions of the iPhone?

    What's good about youtube on Cingular's slow *ss edge network? "Real Internet" would be "Real Slow"!!! Probably more Cingular's fault than Apple's though.

    Aside from that, it seems I can do everything on my 650 even?! Googlemaps? Treos had that 2 years ago with Kmaps.

    Can you use Skype?

    And another thing, I've dropped my old 650 5 times, and the final time, it stopped working. I took it apart, replaced a housing, and it worked perfectly again. If I drop the iPhone, I think I will see it play out in slow motion, because it would be un-salvagable.

    I also have oily ears (shut up, most of you do too especailly after long days work), and I don't know about oiling up the screen, and then wiping that oil all over the phone with my fingers. Then I would have to wipe it off with my shirt, which then will scratch it up over time. I am assuming you can't put a Screen Protector on it and still have it be accurate?

    What about if I need to use the phone one handed on the car? Seems next to impossible?

    Also, the reason why I can use my 680 so smooth and fast, is because I know where the buttons are located. I can do almost anything with my eyes closed. Seems like that would be hard on the iphone with the different buttons jumping around. In this app, you tap here, and in that app, you tap there?!

    I want to at least wait for the 3G model so the "Real Internet" would actually function well. Also, how advanced can email get? Snapper and Chatter is basically all I would need, I don't see how advanced it could get?

    I think the iPhone will convert regular Razr users to the iPhone, but it probably won't convert Treo, BB, WM users..... yet

    I think the iPhone is great, but not practical from many different standpoints.
    06-26-2007 02:22 AM
  10. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    Is it just me, or can my 680 do 90% of the functions of the iPhone?
    It's not just you. The remaining 10% of the things you can't do seem to boil down to Coverflow listing of your albums and zooming a picture with 2 fingers instead of one stylus (or a keystroke). Otherwise you have the same capabilities and a whole lot more.
    06-26-2007 07:57 AM
  11. bruckwine's Avatar
    Just saw the demo. Haven't been following iPhone threads, but...

    Is it just me, or can my 680 do 90% of the functions of the iPhone?

    What's good about youtube on Cingular's slow *ss edge network? "Real Internet" would be "Real Slow"!!! Probably more Cingular's fault than Apple's though.

    Aside from that, it seems I can do everything on my 650 even?! Googlemaps? Treos had that 2 years ago with Kmaps.

    Can you use Skype?

    And another thing, I've dropped my old 650 5 times, and the final time, it stopped working. I took it apart, replaced a housing, and it worked perfectly again. If I drop the iPhone, I think I will see it play out in slow motion, because it would be un-salvagable.

    I also have oily ears (shut up, most of you do too especailly after long days work), and I don't know about oiling up the screen, and then wiping that oil all over the phone with my fingers. Then I would have to wipe it off with my shirt, which then will scratch it up over time. I am assuming you can't put a Screen Protector on it and still have it be accurate?

    What about if I need to use the phone one handed on the car? Seems next to impossible?

    Also, the reason why I can use my 680 so smooth and fast, is because I know where the buttons are located. I can do almost anything with my eyes closed. Seems like that would be hard on the iphone with the different buttons jumping around. In this app, you tap here, and in that app, you tap there?!

    I want to at least wait for the 3G model so the "Real Internet" would actually function well. Also, how advanced can email get? Snapper and Chatter is basically all I would need, I don't see how advanced it could get?

    I think the iPhone will convert regular Razr users to the iPhone, but it probably won't convert Treo, BB, WM users..... yet

    I think the iPhone is great, but not practical from many different standpoints.
    These are my feelings (except the greasy ears ) I think I will wait to see the inevitable improvements they make come 2008 (and the price drop!)... until then my 680 will do just nicely. If you recall waht the 1st iPod looked like vs the 5th Gen ones it pays to play it safe esp with Apple as they like to "reproduce" these generations every 6 months! Same reason I'm delaying on going for a MBP atm...I have a Mac Pro at work so that's sweet enough and a PC at home....I'll wait for Leopard to come out and for all teh bugs to be fixed b4 I go get one!
    06-26-2007 08:30 AM
  12. godschoice's Avatar
    The audience for this phone does not have a full qwerty keyboard on their current phone. For adding contact names and doing SMS messages, they have to tap tap tap the numeric keys to tap tap tap a name or tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap a very small message.

    How many taps does it take to type a sentence on a normal phone? Too many!

    Taping on a on screen keyboard (OSK) would make life more simply for the average Joe phone user.

    The never put anything more than a phone number or two in their contacts before, now with the OSK they won't mind adding addresses and more.

    If a directory assistant type product is available or Google Maps allows a "save to contacts" feature then people will love it more.

    The one thing missing is an IM application. This seems a no-brainer for today's youth who tends to be the same that wants their Internet, Youtube, pictures, music and videos to go go.
    06-26-2007 08:31 AM
  13. bruckwine's Avatar
    The audience for this phone does not have a full qwerty keyboard on their current phone. For adding contact names and doing SMS messages, they have to tap tap tap the numeric keys to tap tap tap a name or tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap a very small message.

    How many taps does it take to type a sentence on a normal phone? Too many!

    Taping on a on screen keyboard (OSK) would make life more simply for the average Joe phone user.

    The never put anything more than a phone number or two in their contacts before, now with the OSK they won't mind adding addresses and more.

    If a directory assistant type product is available or Google Maps allows a "save to contacts" feature then people will love it more.

    The one thing missing is an IM application. This seems a no-brainer for today's youth who tends to be the same that wants their Internet, Youtube, pictures, music and videos to go go.
    I STILL disagree with that..up until Dec i was an "average joe" i.e. my most complex phone was a nokia 6101 (hey smartphones were just too expensive ffor me until the T 680 came along - sue me!). Since I bought a treo either I'm gifted or i adapt quickly, but in under a month I was typing crazy and it felt good. it takes less energy - for me at least and this is why i assume on average - to to bend my thumb (with the phone in my hand i just bend it to type) than to tap away at something which requires total finger if not total wrist movement (just imagine it..hold your phone and tap on it vs cupping it and thumbing). My thumbs don't get aas tired...

    I see the tapping/sliding ok for some applications (e.g. music ipod) but typing looks lik eit will get monotonous afte the GUi wears off (and trust me it always does). If you can master the thumbing-no tactility qwerty on it maybe..but i still need it. the mastery of the iPod in the mp3 world is its THUMBwheel and I think i will def. be a turn-off to some to have to rely on both hands to operate their PMP/phone.

    The capacitance response touchscreens they are saying are in development sound like an alternative, butI don't know if i want my hpone shocking me (esp if it can malfunction as all hardware is guaranteed to at some point)!
    06-26-2007 08:43 AM
  14. surur's Avatar
    You would be surprised at how fast normal teenagers (and now young adults) are with T9. With predictable predictive texting many can type completely without looking, and use less keypresses than a QWERTY keyboard.

    Surur
    06-26-2007 08:54 AM
  15. dstrauss#IM's Avatar
    You would be surprised at how fast normal teenagers (and now young adults) are with T9. With predictable predictive texting many can type completely without looking, and use less keypresses than a QWERTY keyboard.

    Surur
    This is one of those occassions where we part ways - have you ever tried to read their shorthand gibberish? Sure they can type quick short messages of indecipherable acronyms and abbreviation, but you better have a translation dictionary. I don't really think that's a valid comparison. In all honesty, T9 sucks if you are trying to enter standard text. That's why my Cingular 3125 is gathering dust while my Blackjack gets daily abuse.
    06-26-2007 09:05 AM
  16. surur's Avatar
    In all honesty, T9 sucks if you are trying to enter standard text.
    I agree, but I think that just means we are both more than 30 years old

    Surur
    06-26-2007 09:22 AM
  17. ktm97's Avatar
    Maybe the iphone will help them complete a full sentence, without acronyms and abbrevation's
    06-26-2007 09:25 AM
  18. marcol's Avatar
    I agree, but I think that just means we are both more than 30 years old
    Both of my teenage kids have used my Treo 650 for long periods (my son still has it) and really like the QWERTY, especially my daughter and she touch-types multi-tap.
    06-26-2007 09:32 AM
  19. dstrauss#IM's Avatar
    I agree, but I think that just means we are both more than 30 years old

    Surur
    :o :thumbsup:
    06-26-2007 09:34 AM
  20. archie's Avatar
    • In addition to its dock, the iPhone comes packaged with a polishing cloth (the thing's supposedly a fingerprint magnet, no surprise) and the usual smallish power adapter.

    I don't believe it will come with a dock. I may be mistaken...
    I was mistaken. The shipping units do come with a dock. This actually makes sense being an introductory premium product.
    06-27-2007 01:48 PM
  21. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I was mistaken. The shipping units do come with a dock. This actually makes sense being an introductory premium product.
    Let's have your full quote: "I may be mistaken but this does not seem likely"

    Yes, you were. Dock and magnifying glass.

    Even when wrong, you spin.

    So you were also wrong about the review that had been on Engadget earlier that you said was fake.

    **** those feathers...
    06-27-2007 01:51 PM
  22. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I can assure you this is a bogus report. these things are all false and I can point out 5 things in this list that are tell-tale signs this person has never used the phone.
    You can assure us?

    http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/27/n...-the-keyboard/

    http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/27/a...harger-but-is/

    Looks like you were wrong, bigtime.

    Caw, Caw.
    06-27-2007 02:00 PM
  23. archie's Avatar
    Let's have your full quote: "I may be mistaken but this does not seem likely"

    Yes, you were. Dock and magnifying glass.

    Even when wrong, you spin.

    So you were also wrong about the review that had been on Engadget earlier that you said was fake.

    **** those feathers...
    OK! First of all. I actually said that on that one particular issue, "I may be mistaken". So I warned you that I was not certain.

    Second of all, I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to me being incorrect about the magnifying glass.

    Did you know I posted about this 3 or 4 times here on TreoCentral?

    Here's one from a week after the iPhone introduction.
    25. Big bubble editing lets you touch and hold the screen to get a zoomed in area of text for precise cursor placement with your finger.
    06-27-2007 02:31 PM
  24. archie's Avatar
    These links you posted actually prove that I was RIGHT! I'm confused. What are you trying to say?
    06-27-2007 02:34 PM
  25. archie's Avatar
    Oh, the dock pictured with a bluetooth headset cavity IS included in the box - THE BOX OF THE BLUETOOTH HEADSET.
    06-27-2007 02:37 PM
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