1. surur's Avatar
    So we already know there is no flash on the Iphone, and no java either. Now comes even more confidential news about how crippled the Iphone browser really is.

    NOTES from WWDC: Developing Web Sites for iPhone

    University of Washington's "Emerging Technology Group" published notes from Apple's "Developing Web Sites for iPhone" session from WWDC last week. It looks like its been taken down, but not before MacRumors posted a shortlist of useful notes.

    Here's my recompile:

    What iPhone offers for websites:
    Tab browsing allows viewing of multiple websites and documents, with tab switching available via a finger swipe (often forgotten feature demonstrated during the January MacWorld Keynote). Tab browsing is the bottom rightmost button in the browser app.
    Full PDF support
    Double tap for zooming in
    One finger can be used to:
    Pan the page
    Press and Hold for Contextual Menu
    Two fingers can be used to:
    Pinch content (zoom in/zoom out)
    Pan the page
    Trigger scroll-wheel events
    New telephone links allow you to integrate phone calls directly from your webpage. (It's not yet clear if this utilizes the web standard "tel://" protocol.)
    Built-in Google maps client for integrated mapping from your website. (It's not clear how this is implemented, whether it is a new protocol, etc.)

    iPhone size limitations / restrictions:

    10MB max html size for web page
    Javascript limited to 5 seconds run time (for comparison, Firefox has a 10 second limitation)
    Javascript allocations limited to 10MB (like pages)
    8 documents maximum loaded on the iPhone due to page view limitations
    Quicktime can be used for audio and video
    Streaming video not supported from streaming media servers. Media must be installed on servers. (Presumeably this means that websites that only allow limited buffering, and do not display a "guage" for video that download into cache, will not be supported)
    Links directly to movies will automatically switch the iPhone into full-screen, landscape video playback
    No Flash and no Java support.

    Apple recommended design considerations:

    Separate HTML and CSS
    Use well structured and valid HTML
    Size images appropriately dont rely on browser scaling
    Tile small images in backgrounds, dont use large background images
    iPhone supports both EDGE and Wi-Fi.
    EDGE pipe is smaller than Wi-Fi pipe, so consider bandwidth when developing.
    XHTML mobile documents supported
    Stylesheet device width: 480px
    Apply different CSS for the iPhone.
    For example displaying a one column page for iPhone vs. a 3 column page on a desktop.
    There are no scroll bars or resize knobs.
    The iPhone will automatically expand the content.
    Avoid framesets. Scrollable frames are automatically expanded to fit the content
    iPhone User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/1A538a Safari/419.3
    Video: H.264 baseline profile level 3.0 up to 640x480 fps
    http://forums.figma.com/showthread.php?p=31

    So forget about visiting Worth1000 or any FARK photoshop thread, or opening that large word document with pictures in Google docs.

    The Iphone is a nice mobile browser, but there are better ones, such as the one on the Nokia N95 that also uses webkit, but actually supports Java and Flash.

    Iphone however does not have the Real Internet. What a laugh.

    Surur
    06-20-2007 06:07 AM
  2. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I like how Apple is telling folks to redeisgn their web pages for Safari on iPhone.

    Sure, I love to customize my site to umpteen different browsers.
    06-20-2007 09:24 AM
  3. tirk's Avatar
    I like how Apple is telling folks to redeisgn their web pages for Safari on iPhone.

    Sure, I love to customize my site to umpteen different browsers.
    No, Apple only want you to have to do it for two!

    "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." Works with Apple & Microsoft too!
    06-20-2007 09:35 AM
  4. llarson's Avatar
    So we already know there is no flash on the Iphone, and no java either. Now comes even more confidential news about how crippled the Iphone browser really is.


    http://forums.figma.com/showthread.php?p=31

    So forget about visiting Worth1000 or any FARK photoshop thread, or opening that large word document with pictures in Google docs.

    The Iphone is a nice mobile browser, but there are better ones, such as the one on the Nokia N95 that also uses webkit, but actually supports Java and Flash.

    Iphone however does not have the Real Internet. What a laugh.

    Surur
    SURUR seems to think he can sink iPHONE all on his own.

    Surur how many people get a 10 meg attachment to an email and look to edit on their phone.

    And on my phone I usual look to browse news and business sites not graphic sites.

    Next time Surur give us a list of Porn sites you visit that won't work on iPHONE.
    06-20-2007 10:37 PM
  5. KStewart's Avatar

    Next time Surur give us a list of Porn sites you visit that won't work on iPHONE.
    I can give you a list...
    06-20-2007 10:45 PM
  6. braj's Avatar
    And on my phone I usual look to browse news and business sites not graphic sites.
    I think the point is that Apple says you get the whole internet (as opposed to all other phones which are 5 years behind, right?) but then we are told it is limited to 10MB or less.

    I personally can live with that limitation but honestly, who really believed Steve Jobs when he made that statement? Who still does?

    All companies marketing is full of BS so I'm not singling Apple out. I just want to know what's what with the products I might be buying soon.
    06-20-2007 10:51 PM
  7. oalvarez's Avatar
    i must agree......there will be those want it all and those who have simple needs. i think that the iphone will make many consumers happy with their internet browsing experience. some may have wants and perhaps needs well beyond what it is that the iphone will offer. no problem, let those consumers continue to use what magnificent devices they may have that do such a great job of meeting their needs.

    it is really that simple.
    06-20-2007 11:08 PM
  8. mikec#IM's Avatar
    llarsen,

    And what is wrong with porn? You comment as if there would be something wrong with Surur is he viewed porn sites.

    No need to project your sexual hangups on Surur, who is just pointing out some gaps in the iPhone.

    And yes, limiting you to 10MB can be pain...but oh well.
    06-20-2007 11:09 PM
  9. oalvarez's Avatar
    MikeC, please explain to us those instances where one might be limited to 10mb......i'm sure many would love to know what it is that they're getting themselves into prior to purchasing the iphone.

    thanks!
    06-20-2007 11:14 PM
  10. braj's Avatar
    MikeC, please explain to us those instances where one might be limited to 10mb......i'm sure many would love to know what it is that they're getting themselves into prior to purchasing the iphone.

    thanks!
    The web apps that are the only way to get more applications on the phone could be fairly large. Beyond that I personally don't know.
    06-21-2007 12:04 AM
  11. archie's Avatar
    So we already know there is no flash on the Iphone, and no java either. Now comes even more confidential news about how crippled the Iphone browser really is.


    http://forums.figma.com/showthread.php?p=31

    So forget about visiting Worth1000 or any FARK photoshop thread, or opening that large word document with pictures in Google docs.

    The Iphone is a nice mobile browser, but there are better ones, such as the one on the Nokia N95 that also uses webkit, but actually supports Java and Flash.

    Iphone however does not have the Real Internet. What a laugh.

    Surur
    I have never loaded a 10MB web page. I have never even come across any on FARK either. Can you point one out surur?
    06-21-2007 01:02 AM
  12. archie's Avatar
    I like how Apple is telling folks to redeisgn their web pages for Safari on iPhone.

    Sure, I love to customize my site to umpteen different browsers.
    Where do they say that? That's bull****.

    They recommend using CSS for best possible viewing (WHICH EVERYBODY DOES ANYWAY), but they don't say that the sites must be changed to view it.

    The only thing that is effected is double tapping if CSS is not used with XHTML.
    Every single site that I have ever worked on is done this way. It has been considered the standard for the last 4 years.
    06-21-2007 01:05 AM
  13. archie's Avatar
    SURUR seems to think he can sink iPHONE all on his own.

    Surur how many people get a 10 meg attachment to an email and look to edit on their phone.

    And on my phone I usual look to browse news and business sites not graphic sites.

    Next time Surur give us a list of Porn sites you visit that won't work on iPHONE.
    What I can't believe is how surur and his minions find time to write so much negative crap about the iPhone. What I CAN believe is that he creatively interprets/purposely misinterprets things that he finds and then comes here to spew his spin.

    At this point, I am just amused that he thinks he can turn people away from the iPhone. But seriously, those in the camp against the iPhone have some sort of deep issues. I cannot understand why they are so vocal against a product. There are products that I do not like but I do not make it my life's mission to make everybody else dislike it as well... Do they do this because they secretly want it but feel that it is against their principles to purchase it? Are they afraid of something? Do they not want others to have the benefit of such a product when they cannot or will not buy it?

    It seems as though I have had a mindset change ever since attending the WWDC. The FUD machine is to great and out of control recently and it will just continue at this pace for the next month or so. There is no stopping it so I am not going to be fighting it.
    06-21-2007 01:25 AM
  14. braj's Avatar
    surur has minions?
    06-21-2007 01:40 AM
  15. Malatesta's Avatar
    surur has minions?
    Who cares, Archie surrendered!

    There is no stopping it so I am not going to be fighting it.
    Actually, back to the OT...

    I'm also not aware of what a 10mb limit on web pages mean, so if someone could give some real life examples it could put things in perspective.

    I'm under the impression that this won't have much effect on the majority of users out there.

    As far as the negative reaction here to the iPhone, I think it has more or less to do with Apple's attitude towards technology: everything is inferior to theirs, you're a dork if you use something else and we're reinventing everything.

    I just find them condescending & elitist. They build nice stuff but between their yuppie/eastern zen "philosophy" and their users, I find it irritating.

    At least that's how I feel when they promote products. Furthermore, the claim to "full blown internet" is a large order to fill and when the facts come out, it at least appears Apple is hedging. Will it ultimately make a difference? Probably not, but calling a spade a spade is not wrong either.
    06-21-2007 01:50 AM
  16. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    SURUR seems to think he can sink iPHONE all on his own.

    Surur how many people get a 10 meg attachment to an email and look to edit on their phone.

    And on my phone I usual look to browse news and business sites not graphic sites.
    Next time Surur give us a list of Porn sites you visit that won't work on iPHONE.
    However, that's YOUR preference! After looking at the news and business, some people may want to do other things for a while. Many sites people often go to use Flash and Java. It's unavoidable. It would be nice if you could view these sites on the huge iPhone screen but I guess that's a "no" for now?

    And IMO no porn site should be viewed on a phone browser unless you have the speed and unlimited data to handle them. And you probably do need Flash and Java to work most of the time too. *Well you're the one who went there, so... *
    06-21-2007 02:04 AM
  17. braj's Avatar
    Fanboys coming around with half-facts and rumors also brings out the opposing party, the anti-fanboys with their own half truths, and then the anti-anti-fanboys that think anything other than praise is heresy and 'false-dichotomy' They see ghosts of Bill Gates everywhere.

    But on the whole, I don't think there is really much bashing going on, it is mostly a healthy discussion of the possibilities and limitations of the iPhone in relation to what else is available. Which is the whole point of this forum on these boards, right?
    06-21-2007 02:06 AM
  18. archie's Avatar
    The only detractor from this list is the fact that there is no Flash. This is disappointing. Especially since 50% of the stuff I do has Flash in it.

    What is curious to me is that Adobe just announced yesterday (or I guess now, the day before yesterday)that they will be sponsoring the iPhone developers conference next month.

    Here is a FAQ I pulled from the site:

    Q: Why is Adobe hosting this event?

    A: Adobe embraces any opportunity to support the Web community. We believe that Adobe Creative Suite 3 is the best environment in which to build great Web experiences for any platform, on any device. Our friends at BarCamp contacted us looking for a great place to gather, and we are excited to share our space and to participate.

    Q: Does this mean that the iPhone supports Flash?

    A: We suggest that folks speak to Apple directly about what technologies the iPhone will support and integrate. Our relationship with Apple continues to be strong. Naturally we believe that support for Flash is essential for any mobile device that wants to deliver a great experience for customers.

    Q: Will Adobe people be on site to speak and answer questions?

    A: Adobe people will be in attendance, participating like everyone else. Although there is no official presentation planned at this time, all questions related to the use of Adobe products will be cheerfully answered. If any media would like to talk with Adobe about its mobile development strategy, please contact:

    Stefan Offermann
    Adobe PR
    sofferma@adobe.com

    Q: Will I need to sign anything to gain access to Adobe facilities?

    A: Everyone in attendance will be asked to sign a brief Non-Disclosure Agreement, either electronically or on paper. This agreement is in place to protect attendees in case they are exposed to any confidential information from Adobe. We do not anticipate that attendees will be exposed to Adobe Confidential information, but the NDA is required for admittance, and only applies to Adobe Proprietary Information. See iPhoneDevCampAdobeNDA.




    Most curious. I think I will have to get my butt down there.
    06-21-2007 02:14 AM
  19. surur's Avatar
    As many have said - the IPhone does not deliver a desktop browsing experience. You are in fact limited, just like any other mobile browser. Fark is not a porn site - its photoshop contests are very popular, and yes, I can browse them on my WM device without it exploding.

    Especially with Safari being the development platform for the IPhone, any limitation like this is even more of an issue.

    Archie - as you have given up, can you now admit its just another mobile browser, and not really desktop safari? Ive actually heard it called now Safari Mobile (which is funnily reminiscent of Windows Mobile).

    You cant have it both ways - either the IPhone is "full OSX" and can do anything a desktop can do, or it joins its fellow Mobile OS's, with appropriate limitations based on likely usage scenarios.

    Surur
    06-21-2007 02:20 AM
  20. braj's Avatar
    I'm curious if loading a Quicktime embedded movie in a webpage that is greater than 10MB will be considered a 'webpage'. Just trying to think of scenarios where 10MB will be a problem.
    06-21-2007 02:24 AM
  21. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    Who cares, Archie surrendered!


    Actually, back to the OT...

    I'm also not aware of what a 10mb limit on web pages mean, so if someone could give some real life examples it could put things in perspective.

    I'm under the impression that this won't have much effect on the majority of users out there.

    As far as the negative reaction here to the iPhone, I think it has more or less to do with Apple's attitude towards technology: everything is inferior to theirs, you're a dork if you use something else and we're reinventing everything.

    I just find them condescending & elitist. They build nice stuff but between their yuppie/eastern zen "philosophy" and their users, I find it irritating.

    At least that's how I feel when they promote products. Furthermore, the claim to "full blown internet" is a large order to fill and when the facts come out, it at least appears Apple is hedging. Will it ultimately make a difference? Probably not, but calling a spade a spade is not wrong either.
    I think that means the page can't be more than 10MB. All web pages have a size. The more stuff, the bigger the size gets due to the graphics, images and videos. An all-text page will be light and faster loading, due to small size. A page with tons of pictures, heavy graphics, etc, will take longer to load because of the size of the photos and graphics. I know I'm not explaining very well, but if you've ever saved pages for off-line viewing, you'll gauge the size of the page when you look at the file sizes. 10MB seems heavy to me though, like a lot of video or Flash files and things like that.

    As for Apple's approach, hate to say it, but it's still way more innovative than Palm's approach. Even though their closed system makes things hard. They really need to reach out to developers instead of shutting them out. They're learning slowly. But MSFT has a terrible approach too, use us or most software(unless it's the really expensive ones) won't work for you. That's the one thing that has kept me from moving to Apple. They've made it so many developers refuse to see there are other formats, due to them strongarming the PC market. Oh yeah, then MSFT takes over the entire machine with it's own software and MSFT programs are stuck in the ROM and can't be extracted if you don't need them. Truly just as annoying as Apple's exclusion. Sorry Surur.
    06-21-2007 02:30 AM
  22. archie's Avatar
    As many have said - the IPhone does not deliver a desktop browsing experience. You are in fact limited, just like any other mobile browser. Fark is not a porn site - its photoshop contests are very popular, and yes, I can browse them on my WM device without it exploding.

    Especially with Safari being the development platform for the IPhone, any limitation like this is even more of an issue.

    Archie - as you have given up, can you now admit its just another mobile browser, and not really desktop safari? Ive actually heard it called now Safari Mobile (which is funnily reminiscent of Windows Mobile).

    You cant have it both ways - either the IPhone is "full OSX" and can do anything a desktop can do, or it joins its fellow Mobile OS's, with appropriate limitations based on likely usage scenarios.

    Surur
    Sure, I'll say it's just another mobile browser because Apple won't let it run a Flash plug-in (that is until Adobe recompiles it to take advantage of the new LLVM code providing for decreased processor cycles). Are you satisfied?

    But it will still be able to access FARK.

    And let you view web pages as originally constructed
    And it gives you full inline/offline PDF support
    And it gives you tabbed browsing instantly switching form site to site
    And it gives you contextual menus when pressing and holding on specific content
    And it gives you phone number and e-mail address integration...
    06-21-2007 02:32 AM
  23. Malatesta's Avatar
    Oh yeah, then MSFT takes over the entire machine with it's own software and MSFT programs are stuck in the ROM and can't be extracted if you don't need them. Truly just as annoying as Apple's exclusion. Sorry Surur.[/COLOR]
    Hmm, maybe it's just me but I don't really find too much in the WM roms that are unnecessary or force you to use them. But that's me.

    MS's view towards developers on WM is quite friendly and open--they write openly on their blog about the OS, design, decisions they made, how to change things, full documentation. You can disable just about everything if you really wanted to and if you're fancy, you can flash your own custom ROM (a cottage industry on the 6700 at ppcgeeks). Or just buy a device that the OEM customized (700wx, Amp'd Moto Q, Samsung i600, HTC Touch, etc.)
    06-21-2007 02:46 AM
  24. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    I can't get MSFT Works out my ROM and it's taking up 200MB!Any suggestions?
    06-21-2007 02:59 AM
  25. ScandaLeX's Avatar
    What I can't believe is how surur and his minions find time to write so much negative crap about the iPhone. What I CAN believe is that he creatively interprets/purposely misinterprets things that he finds and then comes here to spew his spin.

    At this point, I am just amused that he thinks he can turn people away from the iPhone. But seriously, those in the camp against the iPhone have some sort of deep issues. I cannot understand why they are so vocal against a product. There are products that I do not like but I do not make it my life's mission to make everybody else dislike it as well... Do they do this because they secretly want it but feel that it is against their principles to purchase it? Are they afraid of something? Do they not want others to have the benefit of such a product when they cannot or will not buy it?

    It seems as though I have had a mindset change ever since attending the WWDC. The FUD machine is to great and out of control recently and it will just continue at this pace for the next month or so. There is no stopping it so I am not going to be fighting it. At this point, I am just amused that he thinks he can turn people away from the iPhone.
    It's comments like this that I have trouble understanding. You said a mouthful in regards to what one person feels regarding the iPhone, but as an adult, can one person, whom you probably couldnt pick out of a line-up, prevent you from spending your money the way you or anyone else wants to spend it?

    sursur like EVERYONE on this forum has opinions; and most of you state those opinions like their hard core facts anyway.

    "interprets/purposely misinterprets" - Isnt interpretation based on what a person thinks? How can you say that he purposely misinterprets something? Personally, I think he's just stating his OPINION based on how he INTERPRETED it.

    "vocal against a product" - Who wouldnt be when it's clear that its not going to do all one would think it should do for its price tag.
    06-21-2007 03:49 AM
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