Iphone - Web page MUST be <10 MB - Real Internet LOL, Fark Photoshop threads ROFLMAO

10mB for a page is a lot. If the page is really heavy on the graphics side, you might see something that high, but that is really, really a heavy page, lest its a dynamic page that is loading a ton from various databases (then size gets up there, but think pages like MySpace, and corporate intranets; normal web pages really aren't that large). Oh yea, Flash sites would qualify as sites that wouldnt't do well in this respect if they are 10+MB. That means a lot of entertainment sites with rich content might have an issue that's not just 'no FLash' related. But for the most part, there should not be issues.

Sounds like there is not much RAM to swap fun with. I am thinking no more than 64MB in there, maybe 128MBish; and much of that being taken up by the graphics, OS and touchscreen. Therefore only giving Safari 10MB to play with seems like a performance move.

Everyone in attendance will be asked to sign a brief Non-Disclosure Agreement, either electronically or on paper. This agreement is in place to protect attendees in case they are exposed to any confidential information from Adobe. We do not anticipate that attendees will be exposed to Adobe Confidential information, but the NDA is required for admittance, and only applies to Adobe Proprietary Information. See iPhoneDevCampAdobeNDA.
Sounds either like a new Flash plugin isn't ready, or Adobe might be demonstrating apps made using AIR. A few people might be able to pick that up quickly, hence a NDA to make sure that Adobe covers their's.

Separate HTML and CSS
Use well structured and valid HTML
Size images appropriately dont rely on browser scaling
Tile small images in backgrounds, dont use large background images
iPhone supports both EDGE and Wi-Fi.
EDGE pipe is smaller than Wi-Fi pipe, so consider bandwidth when developing.
XHTML mobile documents supported
Stylesheet device width: 480px
Apply different CSS for the iPhone.
For example displaying a one column page for iPhone vs. a 3 column page on a desktop.
There are no scroll bars or resize knobs.
The iPhone will automatically expand the content.
Avoid framesets. Scrollable frames are automatically expanded to fit the content
iPhone User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/1A538a Safari/419.3
Video: H.264 baseline profile level 3.0 up to 640x480 fps
With the exception of some of that "design for the iPhone junk' much of this isn't much different from modern [professional] coding. It's good to see Apple pushing some semblance of using standards and best practices. However, sounds like Safari 3 for the iPhone does do a bit of optimization onboard (similar to Blazer and its optimized mode) and hence some of the issues. I think that if enough people visit certain sites on the iPhone, those sites would be updated so that no 'iPhone specific' considerations need to be made. Though this does seem like the iPhone might choke some on table-based designs. Good. Best to ditch that antiquated type of designing anyways ;)

10MB max html size for web page
Javascript limited to 5 seconds run time (for comparison, Firefox has a 10 second limitation)
Javascript allocations limited to 10MB (like pages)
Honestly, if every browser (desktop and mobile) enforced this, the web would be a much nicer place. Nevertheless, sounds like the Webkit engine might not have enough horsepower behind it to push this more without some kind of performance hit to the entire system. So the suggestion to throttle back the pages, instead of beefing up the hardware to compensate. Tis a shame Palm couldn't pull that line off with the Foleo, because similar would be the case there too.

In any case, does anyone think that the RAM won't be mentioned in final specs, I got a feeling that it will not be.
 

Pearl_Diva

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2005
650
0
0
Visit site
funny story TreoRat....."so sick and tired of his Treo's 2-3 daily resets".....shame that so many consider that normal operating procedure. let me guess, it doesn't happen to anyone's here.

real life example? just yesterday my friend chucked his Treo in the can after it froze during trying to answer a call...that was the last straw for him too. got online and ordered a new Blackberry Curve.

good stuff

Did he really? He should have sold it, LOL!

My Treos never froze, maybe because I barely use them, LOL!
 

braj

Well-known member
Jun 5, 2007
568
0
0
Visit site
Honestly, I don't think there is a lot to complain about regarding the web on Safari from these specs, other than the statements by Apple that it would be 'desktop class'. I can deal with some limitations, even if it means visiting mobile-formatted sites when available (esp when on EDGE). You would still have a much more desktop-like experience because of the nice big screen. I'm actually pretty happy with Blazer so I'd be happy with Safari.

Safari likely will be one of the best mobile browsing experiences and will force others to build better mobile browsers. Sure Apple didn't come up with the viewing method but it sure looks slick on their device. If I didn't need to type one-handed chats and emails while trying to keep control of my 4 year old, or have a big investment in Palm 3rd party apps, I could have been a very happy iPhone owner.
 

surur

Well-known member
Aug 6, 2005
1,412
0
0
Visit site
I freely admit some of this is all speculation because none of us knows the actual internal memory configuration of the iPhone, but I'm not simply making up stuff about the potential for access to flash RAM. A modern OS like OS X pages in and out of storage quite seamlessly, which means that you essentially do have "virtual" access to 4 or 8 GB of storage space for things that might otherwise go beyond a basic RAM buffer that is likely present in the device. Even a fairly primitive OS like the one in the iPod nano does this on a very simple level.

I admit my post didn't go into this kind of detail, but I was rather quickly responding to Surer claiming that any data on a device like the iPhone must fit wholly into 128MB of RAM, even when there is a large amount of pageout storage available. Given a device that runs a variant of Unix, this is highly misleading.

If you read what I wrote you will see that I said we did not know if it had virtual memory. Also even with virtual memory, all you do is end up swapping out areas of memory you are not using. When you then switch to those other processes things become sluggish (and flash is not much faster and can even be slower than a HDD when read). There will be a lot of swapping going on in a limited memory device that pretends to be a desktop. This will result in a sluggish device, which again does not seem to be Jobs style.

There may be virtual memory, but I think its unlikely. Even if it does, Apple may very well limit the amount of memory the browser can use so not as to compromise the system's function (by slowing everything down for example).

Surur
 

bruckwine

Well-known member
Nov 25, 2006
323
0
0
Visit site
This place is a Sunday school compared to some of the football forums I know. :D

(No, not the soft stuff you have in the US, I mean the game played with the foot!)

Ain't THAT the truth lol!
As tot he 10 MB limit I do think this may be a hindrance to those ajax 2. apps that seem to be the only way for 3rd parties to go...
 

surur

Well-known member
Aug 6, 2005
1,412
0
0
Visit site
Ain't THAT the truth lol!
As tot he 10 MB limit I do think this may be a hindrance to those ajax 2. apps that seem to be the only way for 3rd parties to go...

I would imagine it puts a limit on the amount of data a web page can cache e.g. a google-maps like application.

Surur
 

Gee-Man

Member
Dec 15, 2005
14
0
0
Visit site
If you read what I wrote you will see that I said we did not know if it had virtual memory.
Yes, I read what you wrote, and I think it was incorrect. We do know that it has virtual memory. The iPhone is confirmed to run OS X - and virtual memory support is a fundamental part of the Darwin kernel. You can't just remove it, nor would there be any reason for Apple to do so even on a limited-memory device - memory management is far too embedded in the core of the operating system. That's one of the reasons OS X, like any modern OS, is able to multi-task effectively, which is also a confirmed feature of the phone.

Also even with virtual memory, all you do is end up swapping out areas of memory you are not using. When you then switch to those other processes things become sluggish (and flash is not much faster and can even be slower than a HDD when read). There will be a lot of swapping going on in a limited memory device that pretends to be a desktop. This will result in a sluggish device, which again does not seem to be Jobs style.
Flash memory is very fast, much more so than the tiny hard drives that can be put into phone-like devices today, which have lower RPM than desktop or even laptop drives. But besides that, there are a lot of ways to manage swapping. Given that the iPhone (stupidly) won't accept 3rd-party apps, the built-in functions of the phone aren't likely to cause massive swapping, even web browsing.

I'm not sure what your overall argument is - is it that the iPhone is no longer the "real internet" because it may have a limit based on memory, any limit at all? That seems like an absurdly absolutist position to take - it's like saying that if my browser doesn't load one page after visiting 99 others fine, it's no longer a "real web browser".
 

surur

Well-known member
Aug 6, 2005
1,412
0
0
Visit site
Yes, I read what you wrote, and I think it was incorrect. We do know that it has virtual memory. The iPhone is confirmed to run OS X - and virtual memory support is a fundamental part of the Darwin kernel. You can't just remove it, nor would there be any reason for Apple to do so even on a limited-memory device - memory management is far too embedded in the core of the operating system. That's one of the reasons OS X, like any modern OS, is able to multi-task effectively, which is also a confirmed feature of the phone.

Ive switched of virtual memory on my XP desktop. Its easier than you think, and results in a faster PC. I did not know you could not do this on OS X?

Flash memory is very fast, much more so than the tiny hard drives that can be put into phone-like devices today, which have lower RPM than desktop or even laptop drives.

Flash isn't faster than desktops HDD's, so the experience will be similar to desktops with heavy swapping. Right?

But besides that, there are a lot of ways to manage swapping. Given that the iPhone (stupidly) won't accept 3rd-party apps, the built-in functions of the phone aren't likely to cause massive swapping, even web browsing.

One way to manage it is not to have swapping at all, like most embedded devices.

I'm not sure what your overall argument is - is it that the iPhone is no longer the "real internet" because it may have a limit based on memory, any limit at all? That seems like an absurdly absolutist position to take - it's like saying that if my browser doesn't load one page after visiting 99 others fine, it's no longer a "real web browser".

Its just another reason. No flash, no Java, limitations on the size of the web pages. Its already 3 strikes now, and the device has not even been tested yet in real life.

Surur
 

Gee-Man

Member
Dec 15, 2005
14
0
0
Visit site
Ive switched of virtual memory on my XP desktop. Its easier than you think, and results in a faster PC. I did not know you could not do this on OS X?
Virtual memory is always on with OS X. Perhaps someone out there has some hack way to disable it, but there is no good reason to. Poor implementations of virtual memory, or badly-coded applications, are responsible for serious performance problems, not the concept of virtual memory itself. If the system is swapping when it shouldn't be, turning off virtual memory isn't going to make all problems go away, it'll just show up in some other way (like the application crashing).

Virtual memory is an absolute requirement if you want the device to have effective multi-tasking, which is a basic feature Apple advertises for iPhone.

Flash isn't faster than desktops HDD's, so the experience will be similar to desktops with heavy swapping. Right?
I don't know what kind of web sites you frequent, but I do a lot of web browsing on my XP computer at work and my Mac at home, and I never see sluggish performance because of heavy swapping.

We have very little idea what the experience will be like on the iPhone if you push crazy heavy web pages at it. Wait and see.

One way to manage it is not to have swapping at all, like most embedded devices.
First you said you think it won't have virtual memory, which you use as a reason to trash the phone. Then, after I pointed out the fact that OS X has virtual memory always enabled, you flip-flop to say that it shouldn't have virtual memory anyway since it's too slow. You're still grasping for any old justification to hate the iPhone, even shaky ones.

And it's completely unnecessary - there are plenty of confirmed things that are genuinely not-so-great about iPhone. Like no 3rd-party apps. Like the unknown factor of typing without any tactile feedback. Like the high price. Like AT&T's mediocre network and coverage as an exclusive. Like the lack of 3G at the phone's price point. Why make up fake stuff when there's plenty of real stuff to criticize?

Its just another reason. No flash, no Java, limitations on the size of the web pages. Its already 3 strikes now, and the device has not even been tested yet in real life.
Sorry, but it takes real chutzpah to post in a Treo forum about how supposedly crappy the web browsing experience is on iPhone. I saw their walkthrough video - and even though I'm still not buying an iPhone, even I can tell how obviously superior their browser is going to be than any Treo ever made, and I love my Treo.

Yes, it doesn't have flash or Java. Your third strike is your speculation, not proven, BTW. But even with those limitations it's still looks to be much better than anything else out there phone-wise, with the possible exception of the new Opera mini browser which I haven't had a chance to try yet.
 

Malatesta

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2006
450
0
0
Visit site
if you want the device to have effective multi-tasking, which is a basic feature Apple advertises for iPhone.
Do they?

It looks more like PalmOS limited multi-tasking than true multi-tasking. Then again we don't have a device to test this, but it seems like you have one app run and then you have to go back home and launch another but we are not sure if the other program is actually still loaded or uses some "virtual" memory to return you to the previous state.
 

surur

Well-known member
Aug 6, 2005
1,412
0
0
Visit site
Virtual memory is always on with OS X. Perhaps someone out there has some hack way to disable it, but there is no good reason to.

Look, just because YOU dont know how to turn of Virtual memory under OSX does not mean Apple does not know how. The good reason why embedded devices usually do not use virtual memory is to guarantee performance.

Poor implementations of virtual memory, or badly-coded applications, are responsible for serious performance problems, not the concept of virtual memory itself. If the system is swapping when it shouldn't be, turning off virtual memory isn't going to make all problems go away, it'll just show up in some other way (like the application crashing).

Again, I wonder if you understand computers at all. Having to page in from slow storage takes time, and leads to performance issues. This is a basic feature of virtual memory. BTW, the solution to your paradox above is simply more RAM.

Virtual memory is an absolute requirement if you want the device to have effective multi-tasking, which is a basic feature Apple advertises for iPhone.


So my desktop isn't multi-tasking at the moment? I guess I'm being fooled by Rhapsody, Excel and 32 browser windows open.

I don't know what kind of web sites you frequent, but I do a lot of web browsing on my XP computer at work and my Mac at home, and I never see sluggish performance because of heavy swapping.

Try having more than 2 web pages open at the same time. Or maybe a little photoshopping.

We have very little idea what the experience will be like on the iPhone if you push crazy heavy web pages at it. Wait and see.
Out of memory errors?

First you said you think it won't have virtual memory, which you use as a reason to trash the phone. Then, after I pointed out the fact that OS X has virtual memory always enabled, you flip-flop to say that it shouldn't have virtual memory anyway since it's too slow. You're still grasping for any old justification to hate the iPhone, even shaky ones.

I said I dont think it has virtual memory, and I gave the reasons (due to performance issues) and I still dont think it has virtual memory. Jobs said the IPhone runs OSX, but dont fool yourself into thinking its not a special built with all kinds of limitations and reduced features.


And it's completely unnecessary - there are plenty of confirmed things that are genuinely not-so-great about iPhone. Like no 3rd-party apps. Like the unknown factor of typing without any tactile feedback. Like the high price. Like AT&T's mediocre network and coverage as an exclusive. Like the lack of 3G at the phone's price point.

And you dont think I have mentioned those too?

Why make up fake stuff when there's plenty of real stuff to criticize?

I have realistic expectations of embedded systems, and you clearly do not, and have swallowed the koolaid.

Sorry, but it takes real chutzpah to post in a Treo forum about how supposedly crappy the web browsing experience is on iPhone. I saw their walkthrough video - and even though I'm still not buying an iPhone, even I can tell how obviously superior their browser is going to be than any Treo ever made, and I love my Treo.

Sorry, thats not the advertising. Jobs didn't just say improved. He said desktop. Last I looked I have flash on my browser.

Yes, it doesn't have flash or Java. Your third strike is your speculation, not proven, BTW. But even with those limitations it's still looks to be much better than anything else out there phone-wise, with the possible exception of the new Opera mini browser which I haven't had a chance to try yet.

Again you have swallowed the hype. The browser in the new S60 Nokia's use the same webkit, and has been doing so for more than a year. Opera Mobile also does AJAX, and renders very well, for a while now. Netfront is also quite good.

You've seen an advert, and think you know its very good. Has it even occurred to you that the adverts are designed to give you this very impression?

Surur
 

HowardH

Active member
Jun 20, 2007
42
0
0
Visit site
It's funny how people with Apple device don't start threads bashing the non-Apple devices by comparison, yet we see so any anti-iPod, anti-OSX and anti-iPhone threads, which are mostly started by people how have absolutely no significant experience with the devices that they're bashing.


To be fair to Surer, you actually seem like a smart guy, from what I've read. Apart from not picking up the HTML thing.

But I suspect your have "small device syndrome" or something similar. :) If you don't want an iPhone/iPod/iMac etc. then don't buy one. But don't do yourself the disservice of being lumped in with the "OS X sucks, it doesn't even have a command prompt!" crowd.
 

Gee-Man

Member
Dec 15, 2005
14
0
0
Visit site
Do they?

It looks more like PalmOS limited multi-tasking than true multi-tasking. Then again we don't have a device to test this, but it seems like you have one app run and then you have to go back home and launch another but we are not sure if the other program is actually still loaded or uses some "virtual" memory to return you to the previous state.
https://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/#mn_p

Click the "OS X" button for a little movie showcasing this feature. They specifically mention true multi-tasking, it's definitely not the Palm-style "switching" where things aren't truly running in the background.

I don't doubt them on this particular point. They have no reason to lie about this, plus they'd be wide open to serious lawsuits if they did. If it actually runs OS X, then true multi-tasking should be pretty much automatic. What we don't know at this point is how the iPhone will perform under real-world conditions when multi-tasking - if you're downloading an email in the background, will the web browsing slow down noticeably?
 

Malatesta

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2006
450
0
0
Visit site
I don't doubt them on this particular point. They have no reason to lie about this, plus they'd be wide open to serious lawsuits if they did.
I don't doubt them either, I just hadn't heard them use the word multi-tasking or seen that vid yet, so I was iffy on how it actually operated.
 

Certs

Well-known member
Mar 13, 2005
239
0
0
www.myspace.com
https://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/#mn_p

Click the "OS X" button for a little movie showcasing this feature. They specifically mention true multi-tasking, it's definitely not the Palm-style "switching" where things aren't truly running in the background.

I don't doubt them on this particular point. They have no reason to lie about this, plus they'd be wide open to serious lawsuits if they did. If it actually runs OS X, then true multi-tasking should be pretty much automatic. What we don't know at this point is how the iPhone will perform under real-world conditions when multi-tasking - if you're downloading an email in the background, will the web browsing slow down noticeably?

It would have to, since EDGE is slow enough (being realistic here, not bashing)

Apple has been advertising multi-tasking since day 1, so I'd take their word for it right now, until proven otherwise
 

surur

Well-known member
Aug 6, 2005
1,412
0
0
Visit site
Not arguing that the IPhone does not multitask, but Apple has said numerous things which are just plain lies, mainly about being first to the market with something, and they do not seem concerned about being sued at all.

Surur
 

Gee-Man

Member
Dec 15, 2005
14
0
0
Visit site
Look, just because YOU dont know how to turn of Virtual memory under OSX does not mean Apple does not know how. The good reason why embedded devices usually do not use virtual memory is to guarantee performance.
I never said I don't know how. There are hacky ways to do it, but I said there is no serious reason to do so. Disabling virtual memory limits functionality and decreases overall stability - what happens when an app runs out of addressable RAM? A system freeze is likely, that's what could happen. Apple is running OS X for a reason, they mention that it multi-tasks, and that is greatly improved by having virtual memory. Why this seems like a debatable point is beyond me. There's a reason why virtual memory was invented for complex systems, and the more complex hand-held devices get, the greater the need for virtual memory to handle that complexity.

Again, I wonder if you understand computers at all. Having to page in from slow storage takes time, and leads to performance issues. This is a basic feature of virtual memory. BTW, the solution to your paradox above is simply more RAM.
Let it go. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I "don't understand computers". You had no idea that OS X has virtual memory always enabled. Does that mean "you don't understand computers"? Sheesh.

And more RAM isn't a solution, there is always a limit to physical RAM. If a highly-complex app has a memory leak due to a bug, and runs out of RAM, at least it can be corralled in some way by the OS memory management system to keep it from crashing the system. Why do you think older OSs like Mac OS 9, Windows 95, and PalmOS are plagued with crashes and lockups by misbehaving apps? Partly because of poor memory memory management schemes. Embedded systems didn't need them in the past because they didn't do much. Now that they are resembling small computers in functionality, virtual memory is a must.

So my desktop isn't multi-tasking at the moment? I guess I'm being fooled by Rhapsody, Excel and 32 browser windows open.
Try having more than 2 web pages open at the same time. Or maybe a little photoshopping.
:rolleyes: You are an L33T computer user. 32 browser windows? A little Photoshopping? Amazing! :rolleyes:

And re-read what I said - I said "effective" multi-tasking. I didn't say it was impossible to multi-task without virtual memory, just that's it's not a good idea and there is no reason to disable it on a device like iPhone.

I said I dont think it has virtual memory, and I gave the reasons (due to performance issues) and I still dont think it has virtual memory. Jobs said the IPhone runs OSX, but dont fool yourself into thinking its not a special built with all kinds of limitations and reduced features.
I agree - I'm sure it is limited in some way. They've said as much - it's got several things from a full OS X installation reduced to fit into the phone. But not stuff like virtual memory or the basic kernel, that was alread confirmed as part of the phone.

And you dont think I have mentioned those too?
Oh, I know you have. You've mentioned everything under the sun that you hate about iPhone, which includes stuff that doesn't even make sense. My point is that if you are trying to convince people that iPhone is no good, you damage your overall case by overreaching into areas that are not even real disadvantages.

I have realistic expectations of embedded systems, and you clearly do not, and have swallowed the koolaid.
Oh boy, here come the "koolaid" references. :rolleyes: I was wondering when that would arrive. So I guess since I won't be buying an iPhone, but am not willing to go so far as to say that it is the worst device ever invented in the history of mankind, I must be an iPhone zealot who drank the koolaid and liked it. Yep, that's it. :shake:

Tell me, what color is the sky in your world, is it black, or white?

Again you have swallowed the hype. The browser in the new S60 Nokia's use the same webkit, and has been doing so for more than a year.
So basically Apple and Nokia are using the same webkit, but Apple is lying about their capabilities, while Nokia is totally honest. Riiight.

You've seen an advert, and think you know its very good. Has it even occurred to you that the adverts are designed to give you this very impression?
Of course that's what it is doing - that's why it's an advertisement. But I know what I saw - and this wasn't a quick-cutting 30-second commercial, it's a closeup of somebody using the phone's features for 20+ minutes. It defies logic that Apple was able to completely fake this with the real iPhone being 100% opposite of that video re: web browsing. No, it wasn't shown using EDGE, but I would expect that the wi-fi experience is probably exactly what was shown. Guess what - you can still hate iPhone even if it turns out it's got a pretty good web browser, you've still got plenty of reasons. No need to hoard them. ;)

The serious problem with the iPhone isn't the web browsing, other than the lack of 3G. The problem is with the stuff it doesn't have that we already know about.
 

HowardH

Active member
Jun 20, 2007
42
0
0
Visit site
Not arguing that the IPhone does not multitask, but Apple has said numerous things which are just plain lies, mainly about being first to the market with something, and they do not seem concerned about being sued at all.

Surur


Let's hear a bunch of examples of Apple's unsupportable claims of being first to market.
 

Gee-Man

Member
Dec 15, 2005
14
0
0
Visit site
It would have to, since EDGE is slow enough (being realistic here, not bashing)

Agreed, this is a prime advantage for having multi-tasking given how comparatively slow EDGE is going to be on iPhone. A slow-loading web page could be less painful if you can switch off and play some music while you're waiting :D

My current Treo doesn't have 3G, but I have used phones that do (my wife has one) and I think for certain types of smartphone aficionados EDGE is going to be a real problem for the iPhone.
 

llarson

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2004
175
0
0
Visit site
Bold statement but if you could list me top 10 LIES

Not arguing that the IPhone does not multitask, but Apple has said numerous things which are just plain lies, mainly about being first to the market with something, and they do not seem concerned about being sued at all.

Surur

In a nutshell what should I look for if I go in to buy an iPHONE.

What do they say it will do and you say are lies.

Thanks
 

Trending Posts

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
260,003
Messages
1,765,291
Members
441,220
Latest member
waeriyadh