1. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Howie,

    Surur is stating the fact the Jobs was not telling the facts in his address.

    You call it marketing, but it is lying.

    I sense Apple has never used a Treo with WM5.

    And what is "true internet"?

    It's communication!

    It's web sites (full), instant messaging, voip, video, etc.

    It's not a Safari constrained, server-side app world.

    The most popular "internet" apps are client side - instant messaging, Skype, Bit Torrent, any P2P app. And yes, even email.

    Don't hate the messenger, hate the source.
    06-23-2007 05:46 PM
  2. HowardH's Avatar
    Its from this supposed full transcript here.
    http://www.myitablet.com/complete-tr...2007-23447.php

    I know Jobs is non-grammatical, but he also lies a lot. I had the same feeling of "Whats he talking about, my phone can do that already!".

    Surur
    So now you're not even going back to the source for your original statements? Not only taking them out of context, but taking them out of context from a third party.

    And then twisting them to meet your own agenda.

    I'm sure you don't need me to explain the irony to you.
    06-23-2007 05:48 PM
  3. HowardH's Avatar
    Howie,

    Surur is stating the fact the Jobs was not telling the facts in his address.

    You call it marketing, but it is lying.



    Don't hate the messenger, hate the source.

    Well if you want to take that approach, then they all lie. Surur has the same hatred for the Treo for the same reasons then right? Unless you're inferring that perhaps he's being a little hypocritical?
    06-23-2007 05:50 PM
  4. Malatesta's Avatar
    Well if you want to take that approach, then they all lie. Surur has the same hatred for the Treo for the same reasons then right? Unless you're inferring that perhaps he's being a little hypocritical?
    Not to speak for Surur, but he certainly has no love for Palm or the Treo.
    06-23-2007 05:51 PM
  5. oalvarez's Avatar
    yet another two things that Surur and i see eye to eye on....well, ok....the only two.
    06-23-2007 05:58 PM
  6. HowardH's Avatar
    Not to speak for Surur, but he certainly has no love for Palm or the Treo.
    Or technology perhaps.

    But the specifics are moot. We can use the examples of the Treo, Vista or whatever. It's the same across the industry.
    06-23-2007 05:59 PM
  7. surur's Avatar
    Reading the transcript is bad enough, I'm not going to be reviewing the whole video keynote either. Suffice to say its clear to me that any lie by Jobs would not be unforgiving or unexplained away by you.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 06:08 PM
  8. HowardH's Avatar
    Reading the transcript is bad enough, I'm not going to be reviewing the whole video keynote either. Suffice to say its clear to me that any lie by Jobs would not be unforgiving or unexplained away by you.

    Surur
    I'm really not sure what you're trying to say with that last statement. I suspect you're trying to say that I would find a way to forgive or explain any lie that Jobs said.

    Totally incorrect. Apple have their fair share of skeletons in the closet, I'm just not doing your homework for you.

    I just don't like to see them or their products get bashed on trumped up accusations. If you want to have a discussion on the REAL weaknesses of the product or REAL misrepresentations by Apple (or Palm, or Microsoft or whoever) then go right ahead. But if I went to the Treo forum and started making up or grossly misinterpreting statements about the Treo I'd expect to see some level of correction.
    06-23-2007 06:17 PM
  9. surur's Avatar
    I just don't like to see them or their products get bashed on trumped up accusations. If you want to have a discussion on the REAL weaknesses of the product or REAL misrepresentations by Apple (or Palm, or Microsoft or whoever) then go right ahead. But if I went to the Treo forum and started making up or grossly misinterpreting statements about the Treo I'd expect to see some level of correction.
    We had this conversation months ago.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 06:22 PM
  10. HowardH's Avatar
    We had this conversation months ago.

    Surur
    We did? I only just signed up, I haven't had previous exchanges with you. That line between fiction and fact is kinda blurry right now isn't it?

    Explains some of your other posts

    If by "we" you mean the forum, then that's excellent. I'm happy for your guys. Would would you then progress from a facts based discussion to a discussion based on people misunderstanding and misinterpretation?
    06-23-2007 06:25 PM
  11. surur's Avatar
    If by "we" you mean the forum, then that's excellent. I'm happy for your guys. Would would you then progress from a facts based discussion to a discussion based on people misunderstanding and misinterpretation?
    Well, you've got to keep the conversation alive...

    Surur
    06-23-2007 06:31 PM
  12. HowardH's Avatar
    Well, you've got to keep the conversation alive...

    Surur
    lol, you got that right.

    And it's more entertaining that fixing all of my contacts so my 700wx will allow me to make LD calls.
    06-23-2007 06:36 PM
  13. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    But I don't feel threatened enough by it to waste my time on spurious arguments over misinterpretation of marketing material.
    Yet here you are arguing about what you feel are misinterpretations of wholly (and likely intentionally) incorrect statements. Anytime you make a "first time in history" claim, your feature better be completely unique. Steve Job's feature wasn't unique and if he claimed to not know it then he's also an *****. Well, we all know Steve's not an *****, so QED.

    You could choose to interpret the original statement to mean ALL desktop apps, but that is an opinion. I certainly didn't read it that way.
    By that logic, any phone that syncs with a desktop computer runs a desktop application. I'm more certain than ever Job's was at a minimum quibbling, but more likely misleading with his statement.

    And like I said, there is no mainstream phone that has the same overall experience as the iPhone right now.
    That statement is also true when you replace iPhone with Treo, Dopod, Nokia, Dash, Moto Q, or uncounted other devices. The important thing to remember is while iPhone may be prettier (by some measures) it ain't the first to do any of its tricks (except, perhaps, multi-touch) so Apple should stop claiming it is - or expect the more savvy consumers to call them on it.
    06-23-2007 10:10 PM
  14. MacUser's Avatar
    lol, you got that right.

    And it's more entertaining that fixing all of my contacts so my 700wx will allow me to make LD calls.
    Ouch...that sucks
    06-23-2007 10:13 PM
  15. HowardH's Avatar
    Yet here you are arguing about what you feel are misinterpretations of wholly (and likely intentionally) incorrect statements. Anytime you make a "first time in history" claim, your feature better be completely unique. Steve Job's feature wasn't unique and if he claimed to not know it then he's also an *****. Well, we all know Steve's not an *****, so QED.
    No I'm not sure which explicit statement you're referring to, but it's a fair statement that there has never been an iPod that makes phone calls. While I'm not suggesting that this is what he meant with his "first" statement, it's not an impossible interpretation. The world is not black and white.

    By that logic, any phone that syncs with a desktop computer runs a desktop application. I'm more certain than ever Job's was at a minimum quibbling, but more likely misleading with his statement.
    No, I was referring specifically to the widgets. I could be wrong, but I believe they're portable. AFAIK this is not the same "portability" that we see with Word <-> Pocket Word.

    That statement is also true when you replace iPhone with Treo, Dopod, Nokia, Dash, Moto Q, or uncounted other devices. The important thing to remember is while iPhone may be prettier (by some measures) it ain't the first to do any of its tricks (except, perhaps, multi-touch) so Apple should stop claiming it is - or expect the more savvy consumers to call them on it.
    Well the WM based smartphones ARE using the same UI. There differences (no touch screen on the Q) but largely the user experience is very similar.

    So that argument could go either way. Again, it's not black and white and really it depends how granular we want to be.

    Personally - I just accept the fact that Apple came out with an interesting new interface and a "ramping it up" as they like to do. Just like Microsoft did with Vista. Just like Palm did with the WM based Treo.
    06-23-2007 10:18 PM
  16. braj's Avatar
    If Widgets are portable then you should be able to load any widget on the iPhone, right? That was my expectation when I first saw the iPhone keynote, but it means nothing if you can't actually load them on the phone.

    And saying a widget is a fully-fledged desktop app is also a stretch, since they run within a desktop application themselves.

    As far as 'an iPod that is also a phone', Moto, Sony etc have has phone/MP3 players for years now. My friend's moto can hold a 4gb micro SD so I don't exactly know what you mean by that. My w600i had a dedicated Walkman and play button and was a very serviceable MP3 player. If you mean it is the first Apple MP23 player then what the heck does that matter?
    06-23-2007 10:27 PM
  17. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    No I'm not sure which explicit statement you're referring to, but it's a fair statement that there has never been an iPod that makes phone calls.
    it's the internet in your pocket for the first time ever.
    ...after showing google maps. The first time Ev-AR!! Not a lot of interpretation room there.
    06-23-2007 10:29 PM
  18. HowardH's Avatar
    ...after showing google maps. The first time Ev-AR!! Not a lot of interpretation room there.
    ok yeah, that one's more than a bit sensationalist.

    I'd take it a step further though and say that the reality is that the vast majority of people really know very little about the Internet so we're really talking about varying levels of incompetence.
    06-23-2007 10:31 PM
  19. braj's Avatar
    ...after showing google maps. The first time Ev-AR!! Not a lot of interpretation room there.
    I quickly pulled out my cell phone when I heard that and said "What the heck is this? I guess it isn't Google Maps or the Internet".

    The keynote left a bad impression on my for BS and I've been waiting for Apple to get back into handhelds since the Newton's demise.
    06-23-2007 10:31 PM
  20. HowardH's Avatar
    If Widgets are portable then you should be able to load any widget on the iPhone, right? That was my expectation when I first saw the iPhone keynote, but it means nothing if you can't actually load them on the phone.

    And saying a widget is a fully-fledged desktop app is also a stretch, since they run within a desktop application themselves.
    I'm really not too sure about the widget support. It's a documented assumption on my part. The iPhone is not for me so I haven't spent a HUGE amount of time analysing it.

    As far as 'an iPod that is also a phone', Moto, Sony etc have has phone/MP3 players for years now. My friend's moto can hold a 4gb micro SD so I don't exactly know what you mean by that. My w600i had a dedicated Walkman and play button and was a very serviceable MP3 player. If you mean it is the first Apple MP23 player then what the heck does that matter?
    True. I had an Ericsson phone back in 98/99 that played MP3s. Functionally though there's a huge difference in user experience between that and an iPod. But again, all a question of granularity.
    06-23-2007 10:33 PM
  21. braj's Avatar
    There are other more specialized phones that are as much MP3 players as phones. Granularity is a BS defense for your BS.
    06-23-2007 10:37 PM
  22. HowardH's Avatar
    There are other more specialized phones that are as much MP3 players as phones. Granularity is a BS defense for your BS.
    There are?

    I noticed you used plural terms. What are 3 phones (RCKR (or whatever it's called) excluded) that have a comparable music experience to the iPhone?

    How can granularity be a BS defence? The universe is based on chaos and ambiguity.
    06-23-2007 10:45 PM
  23. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    I'd take it a step further though and say that the reality is that the vast majority of people really know very little about the Internet so we're really talking about varying levels of incompetence.
    Not according to this link:
    In the U.S., 53 percent of all households now subscribe to a broadband high-speed Internet service according to the Leichtman Research Group's study " Broadband Access and Services in the Home 2007."

    Broadband service now makes up about 72 percent of all home Internet subscriptions, compared to 60 percent in 2006.
    Looks like a majority of the people have access to broadband internet speeds in their own homes today. I'd be amazed that they would pay for broadband access but not know much about the internet.
    06-23-2007 10:46 PM
  24. HowardH's Avatar
    Not at all.

    Ask your mother what the difference is between the Internet and the World Wide Web.

    Broadband proliferation does not (thankfully) require the layman to understand the Internet.
    06-23-2007 10:51 PM
  25. braj's Avatar
    There are?

    I noticed you used plural terms. What are 3 phones (RCKR (or whatever it's called) excluded) that have a comparable music experience to the iPhone?

    How can granularity be a BS defence? The universe is based on chaos and ambiguity.
    http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?...e=pp&pid=10391

    SE has a whole line of walkman phones, above is what I was considering recently.

    Not to mention any Palm or WM, Nokia has 4GB music phones, Cingular lists 34 different MP3 phones on their website alone.

    Not to say that they all are as good as an iPod but it is not as if music players haven't made it into cell phones yet (just like the internet). Because it isn't an iPod branded player doesn't mean anything.
    06-23-2007 11:03 PM
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