1. surur's Avatar
    Not arguing that the IPhone does not multitask, but Apple has said numerous things which are just plain lies, mainly about being first to the market with something, and they do not seem concerned about being sued at all.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 03:21 PM
  2. Gee-Man's Avatar
    Look, just because YOU dont know how to turn of Virtual memory under OSX does not mean Apple does not know how. The good reason why embedded devices usually do not use virtual memory is to guarantee performance.
    I never said I don't know how. There are hacky ways to do it, but I said there is no serious reason to do so. Disabling virtual memory limits functionality and decreases overall stability - what happens when an app runs out of addressable RAM? A system freeze is likely, that's what could happen. Apple is running OS X for a reason, they mention that it multi-tasks, and that is greatly improved by having virtual memory. Why this seems like a debatable point is beyond me. There's a reason why virtual memory was invented for complex systems, and the more complex hand-held devices get, the greater the need for virtual memory to handle that complexity.

    Again, I wonder if you understand computers at all. Having to page in from slow storage takes time, and leads to performance issues. This is a basic feature of virtual memory. BTW, the solution to your paradox above is simply more RAM.
    Let it go. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I "don't understand computers". You had no idea that OS X has virtual memory always enabled. Does that mean "you don't understand computers"? Sheesh.

    And more RAM isn't a solution, there is always a limit to physical RAM. If a highly-complex app has a memory leak due to a bug, and runs out of RAM, at least it can be corralled in some way by the OS memory management system to keep it from crashing the system. Why do you think older OSs like Mac OS 9, Windows 95, and PalmOS are plagued with crashes and lockups by misbehaving apps? Partly because of poor memory memory management schemes. Embedded systems didn't need them in the past because they didn't do much. Now that they are resembling small computers in functionality, virtual memory is a must.

    So my desktop isn't multi-tasking at the moment? I guess I'm being fooled by Rhapsody, Excel and 32 browser windows open.
    Try having more than 2 web pages open at the same time. Or maybe a little photoshopping.
    You are an L33T computer user. 32 browser windows? A little Photoshopping? Amazing!

    And re-read what I said - I said "effective" multi-tasking. I didn't say it was impossible to multi-task without virtual memory, just that's it's not a good idea and there is no reason to disable it on a device like iPhone.

    I said I dont think it has virtual memory, and I gave the reasons (due to performance issues) and I still dont think it has virtual memory. Jobs said the IPhone runs OSX, but dont fool yourself into thinking its not a special built with all kinds of limitations and reduced features.
    I agree - I'm sure it is limited in some way. They've said as much - it's got several things from a full OS X installation reduced to fit into the phone. But not stuff like virtual memory or the basic kernel, that was alread confirmed as part of the phone.

    And you dont think I have mentioned those too?
    Oh, I know you have. You've mentioned everything under the sun that you hate about iPhone, which includes stuff that doesn't even make sense. My point is that if you are trying to convince people that iPhone is no good, you damage your overall case by overreaching into areas that are not even real disadvantages.

    I have realistic expectations of embedded systems, and you clearly do not, and have swallowed the koolaid.
    Oh boy, here come the "koolaid" references. I was wondering when that would arrive. So I guess since I won't be buying an iPhone, but am not willing to go so far as to say that it is the worst device ever invented in the history of mankind, I must be an iPhone zealot who drank the koolaid and liked it. Yep, that's it. :shake:

    Tell me, what color is the sky in your world, is it black, or white?

    Again you have swallowed the hype. The browser in the new S60 Nokia's use the same webkit, and has been doing so for more than a year.
    So basically Apple and Nokia are using the same webkit, but Apple is lying about their capabilities, while Nokia is totally honest. Riiight.

    You've seen an advert, and think you know its very good. Has it even occurred to you that the adverts are designed to give you this very impression?
    Of course that's what it is doing - that's why it's an advertisement. But I know what I saw - and this wasn't a quick-cutting 30-second commercial, it's a closeup of somebody using the phone's features for 20+ minutes. It defies logic that Apple was able to completely fake this with the real iPhone being 100% opposite of that video re: web browsing. No, it wasn't shown using EDGE, but I would expect that the wi-fi experience is probably exactly what was shown. Guess what - you can still hate iPhone even if it turns out it's got a pretty good web browser, you've still got plenty of reasons. No need to hoard them.

    The serious problem with the iPhone isn't the web browsing, other than the lack of 3G. The problem is with the stuff it doesn't have that we already know about.
    06-23-2007 03:26 PM
  3. HowardH's Avatar
    Not arguing that the IPhone does not multitask, but Apple has said numerous things which are just plain lies, mainly about being first to the market with something, and they do not seem concerned about being sued at all.

    Surur

    Let's hear a bunch of examples of Apple's unsupportable claims of being first to market.
    06-23-2007 03:29 PM
  4. Gee-Man's Avatar
    It would have to, since EDGE is slow enough (being realistic here, not bashing)
    Agreed, this is a prime advantage for having multi-tasking given how comparatively slow EDGE is going to be on iPhone. A slow-loading web page could be less painful if you can switch off and play some music while you're waiting

    My current Treo doesn't have 3G, but I have used phones that do (my wife has one) and I think for certain types of smartphone aficionados EDGE is going to be a real problem for the iPhone.
    06-23-2007 03:32 PM
  5. llarson's Avatar
    Not arguing that the IPhone does not multitask, but Apple has said numerous things which are just plain lies, mainly about being first to the market with something, and they do not seem concerned about being sued at all.

    Surur
    In a nutshell what should I look for if I go in to buy an iPHONE.

    What do they say it will do and you say are lies.

    Thanks
    06-23-2007 03:39 PM
  6. surur's Avatar
    I never said I don't know how. There are hacky ways to do it, but I said there is no serious reason to do so. Disabling virtual memory limits functionality and decreases overall stability - what happens when an app runs out of addressable RAM? A system freeze is likely, that's what could happen. Apple is running OS X for a reason, they mention that it multi-tasks, and that is greatly improved by having virtual memory. Why this seems like a debatable point is beyond me. There's a reason why virtual memory was invented for complex systems, and the more complex hand-held devices get, the greater the need for virtual memory to handle that complexity.
    You now even virtual memory is not limitless, and when you run out of swap space you will run into the same issue. The solution to a memory leak is to kill the process. But you knew this already I hope.

    Let it go. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I "don't understand computers". You had no idea that OS X has virtual memory always enabled. Does that mean "you don't understand computers"? Sheesh.
    You dont seem to understand still. Are you saying it would be impossible to ship a OSX device without virtual memory enabled. Why?

    And more RAM isn't a solution, there is always a limit to physical RAM. If a highly-complex app has a memory leak due to a bug, and runs out of RAM, at least it can be corralled in some way by the OS memory management system to keep it from crashing the system. Why do you think older OSs like Mac OS 9, Windows 95, and PalmOS are plagued with crashes and lockups by misbehaving apps? Partly because of poor memory memory management schemes. Embedded systems didn't need them in the past because they didn't do much. Now that they are resembling small computers in functionality, virtual memory is a must.
    And it didn't have to do with lack of proper memory protection, which is independent of virtual memory, did it?

    And re-read what I said - I said "effective" multi-tasking. I didn't say it was impossible to multi-task without virtual memory, just that's it's not a good idea and there is no reason to disable it on a device like iPhone.
    So I am not multi-tasking effectively on my PC, or my Win Mobile device?

    I agree - I'm sure it is limited in some way. They've said as much - it's got several things from a full OS X installation reduced to fit into the phone. But not stuff like virtual memory or the basic kernel, that was alread confirmed as part of the phone.
    And you know this how?

    Oh, I know you have. You've mentioned everything under the sun that you hate about iPhone, which includes stuff that doesn't even make sense. My point is that if you are trying to convince people that iPhone is no good, you damage your overall case by overreaching into areas that are not even real disadvantages.
    I am arguing its not the second coming. Everyone knows its a nice toy.

    So basically Apple and Nokia are using the same webkit, but Apple is lying about their capabilities, while Nokia is totally honest. Riiight.
    No. Apple is lying about being first.

    Of course that's what it is doing - that's why it's an advertisement. But I know what I saw - and this wasn't a quick-cutting 30-second commercial, it's a closeup of somebody using the phone's features for 20+ minutes. It defies logic that Apple was able to completely fake this with the real iPhone being 100% opposite of that video re: web browsing. No, it wasn't shown using EDGE, but I would expect that the wi-fi experience is probably exactly what was shown.
    Wow. Do you think this about every amazing advert you see?

    Surur
    06-23-2007 03:45 PM
  7. surur's Avatar
    In a nutshell what should I look for if I go in to buy an iPHONE.

    What do they say it will do and you say are lies.

    Thanks
    As I said, its mainly things they say they can do which no-one else can.

    But a simple example - they say its the real internet, but Pandora will probably not work. Neither will all those Yahoo Java and flash games which the secretaries while away their time with, and myspace pages will look rather bare. The Real Internet has moved on quite a bit.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 03:58 PM
  8. surur's Avatar
    Let's hear a bunch of examples of Apple's unsupportable claims of being first to market.
    From the 20 minute tour

    "The IPhone for the first time in history delivers the internet in your pocket, with the best e-mail, web browsing, search and map applications on your mobile phone."

    This is hyperbole stretching all the way into lies.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 04:05 PM
  9. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    This is hyperbole stretching all the way into lies.
    Calling this hyperbole is an insult to good hyperbole. No one believes good hyperbole - it's designed to emphasize a point (example: Archie is full of crap, when we all know we just mean his head if full of falsehoods - oops, more hyperbole...his head's not full! ). Phrases like "first time in history" can't qualify as hyperbole - therefore it's a falsehood.
    06-23-2007 04:29 PM
  10. Malatesta's Avatar
    If assuming it did have "full blown internet", in my opinion this is not a good solution for mobile computing.

    For me, the internet is about pulling a lot of information, effortlessly and having it literally at my fingertips.

    The problem with the WWW is it's full of unneeded, flashy, redundant graphics, pop-up ads, banners and is often poorly laid out. On a desktop these can be mediated via popup blockers or just having a large screen.

    Now I see the zoom iPhone feature as helping in this, but I still think viewing say the NY Times "full blown" on a mobile device is inefficient, as you have to download a lot of "stuff" you do not need to get the actual news story.

    In this case, I would say that when available, full RSS feeds are much better or even mobile internet sites.

    Here's the NY Times mobile, which for me is so much more clean and to the point. I understand others will disagree with me here, but kb for kb and image for image, this is more efficient and gives the same information without the "clutter" and zooming.

    Is it as pretty as the iPhone? No way, but the end result is the same, imo.

    The goal of mobile computing/internet use should be to extend and improve this, not mimic desktop browsing e.g. a larger screen or higher resolution device might help. But I'm sure others will disagree with me here.




    06-23-2007 04:31 PM
  11. surur's Avatar
    I
    The goal of mobile computing/internet use should be to extend and improve this, not mimic desktop browsing e.g. a larger screen or higher resolution device might help.
    100% True. Jobs implied that all the other phones except his actually sees WAP pages, which is also pure lies.



    Surur
    06-23-2007 04:36 PM
  12. HowardH's Avatar
    From the 20 minute tour

    "The IPhone for the first time in history delivers the internet in your pocket, with the best e-mail, web browsing, search and map applications on your mobile phone."

    This is hyperbole stretching all the way into lies.

    Surur
    You can only come up with one (questionable) example?

    It's actually about context and interpretation. Unless you're suggesting that there was a previous iPhone? You DO understand what context means right? And terms like "dealing with ambiguity?" They ring any bells?

    I would agree that it could contextually be taken the way you described, but I don't think they're really suggesting that there have never been phones that have had Internet Access for example. Seems to me like not only are you misinterpreting the comments, but you're also totally unaware of both the context and the importance of general context in day to day communication.
    06-23-2007 04:43 PM
  13. surur's Avatar
    You can only come up with one (questionable) example?

    It's actually about context and interpretation. Unless you're suggesting that there was a previous iPhone? You DO understand what context means right? And terms like "dealing with ambiguity?" They ring any bells?

    I would agree that it could contextually be taken the way you described, but I don't think they're really suggesting that there have never been phones that have had Internet Access for example. Seems to me like not only are you misinterpreting the comments, but you're also totally unaware of both the context and the importance of general context in day to day communication.
    Nice weasel words. The context is perfectly clear, especially for anyone who saw the Jobs keynote. That example is just the freshest in my mind. There are many more.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 04:45 PM
  14. HowardH's Avatar
    100% True. Jobs implied that all the other phones except his actually sees WAP pages, which is also pure lies.



    Surur
    I think it's already been established that you have trouble with context and therefore, implied meanings. But if you can give a quote and background on this one I'll have happy to decipher the "simple English" for you, and in the unlikely even that he actually DID imply that all phone use WAP, I'll have learned something new.
    06-23-2007 04:47 PM
  15. HowardH's Avatar
    Nice weasel words. The context is perfectly clear, especially for anyone who saw the Jobs keynote. That example is just the freshest in my mind. There are many more.

    Surur
    They ARE weasel words, I don't dispute that at all. That's how marketing and business works. As consumers it's important for us to be able to understand them. Sad, but true.

    The iHate people always have "loads of examples" but can never "think of any right now".

    Maybe you can bring up a list of 10 OS X viruses for us while you're there, there are hundreds out there right? 10 shouldn't be too many?
    06-23-2007 04:51 PM
  16. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Not a virus comparison...as Homer Simpson says, "Boooring".

    actually, this is the first time you can have the internet on your phone...a phone made by Apple, that is.

    I want to know where the Slingbox for the iPhone is. Screw Youtube...Slingbox is where it's at.

    I showed the Slingbox on Treo (WM5) to a couple buddies who are drooling over the iPhone. At first they thought it wasn't real...and then they said, "damn, that is cool".

    I have yet to find someone not impressed with the Sling on the Treo.
    06-23-2007 05:06 PM
  17. HowardH's Avatar

    actually, this is the first time you can have the internet on your phone...a phone made by Apple, that is.


    See - context.
    06-23-2007 05:09 PM
  18. surur's Avatar
    They ARE weasel words, I don't dispute that at all. That's how marketing and business works. As consumers it's important for us to be able to understand them. Sad, but true.

    The iHate people always have "loads of examples" but can never "think of any right now".
    How's this one?

    To start off with, weve got rich, html e-mail on iPhone. The first time really rich e-mail on a mobile device.
    WM6 has HTML e-mail, and before the IPhone. Flexi-mail did HTML e-ail even before this.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 05:13 PM
  19. Malatesta's Avatar
    How's this one?



    WM6 has HTML e-mail, and before the IPhone. Flexi-mail did HTML e-ail even before this.

    Surur
    but it's not really rich, lol. That's the key modifier here
    06-23-2007 05:14 PM
  20. surur's Avatar
    Or this whopper.

    It is the first fully usable html browser on a phone.
    I didn't know I wasn't really "fully" using my browser before. How did Jobs know?

    And these:

    The first rich html e-mail on a phone. The first real Web browser on a phone.
    Surur
    06-23-2007 05:15 PM
  21. HowardH's Avatar
    Again, back to my previous "context" comments, you don't suggest where this quote is coming from. The fact that the quote you provided is not grammatically correct gives me no doubt at all that you've misinterpreted/embellished.

    There is no mass market phone out there that has the same interface as the iPhone today. Sure, other devices support HTML email and other devices can surf the net. What's another phone that has the same email interface as the iPhone? Or the same web handing as the iPhone?

    But you're taking marketing fluff and misinterpreting that to suit your own fantasies.
    06-23-2007 05:26 PM
  22. Kupe#WP's Avatar
    Again, back to my previous "context" comments, you don't suggest where this quote is coming from.
    Try here - there's lots of good ones like:

    9:51 am "these are real desktop applications."

    Keep reading after there.
    06-23-2007 05:30 PM
  23. braj's Avatar
    Again, back to my previous "context" comments, you don't suggest where this quote is coming from. The fact that the quote you provided is not grammatically correct gives me no doubt at all that you've misinterpreted/embellished.

    There is no mass market phone out there that has the same interface as the iPhone today. Sure, other devices support HTML email and other devices can surf the net. What's another phone that has the same email interface as the iPhone? Or the same web handing as the iPhone?

    But you're taking marketing fluff and misinterpreting that to suit your own fantasies.
    I believe he's quoting from Job's keynote, which was oral and thus he has to type out the text. surur may be over the edge sometimes, but he isn't making anything up. Did you watch the keynote? I was looking at my w600i dumbphone the whole time and 90% of what Jobs was saying was revolutionary about the iPhone my cheap dumbphone already did. Not with as much style definitely but surur has a point about Job's fluffing up the truth in the keynote.
    06-23-2007 05:32 PM
  24. surur's Avatar
    Its from this supposed full transcript here.
    http://www.myitablet.com/complete-tr...2007-23447.php

    I know Jobs is non-grammatical, but he also lies a lot. I had the same feeling of "Whats he talking about, my phone can do that already!".

    Surur
    06-23-2007 05:38 PM
  25. HowardH's Avatar
    Try here - there's lots of good ones like:

    9:51 am "these are real desktop applications."

    Keep reading after there.
    I believe he's quoting from Job's keynote, which was oral and thus he has to type out the text. surur may be over the edge sometimes, but he isn't making anything up. Did you watch the keynote? I was looking at my w600i dumbphone the whole time and 90% of what Jobs was saying was revolutionary about the iPhone my cheap dumbphone already did. Not with as much style definitely but surur has a point about Job's fluffing up the truth in the keynote.


    Thanks...

    To address both posts together, the importance of context in understanding marketing propoganda (no matter what the source) cannot be over stressed.

    Whether it's Apple's iPhone or Microsoft's Vista, to take individual comments and THEN misinterpret them is fatalistic to any intelligent argument. The iPhone looks like a great product. It's not for me, I wouldn't buy one. But I don't feel threatened enough by it to waste my time on spurious arguments over misinterpretation of marketing material.

    I could point out that they ARE desktop apps. The Stock Ticker application that they showed is the same app that runs on my desktop. You could choose to interpret the original statement to mean ALL desktop apps, but that is an opinion. I certainly didn't read it that way.

    Yep I watched the keynote. And like I said, there is no mainstream phone that has the same overall experience as the iPhone right now. The Treo is a great device (and for my needs a BETTER device) but it's not the same. I'd argue that it's not even a competing product.
    06-23-2007 05:45 PM
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