[C201]

How is the IPhone more advanced (by your criteria of course)?

Surur

I never made the statement that the iPhone was more advanced. However, I find it worthy of birth. It shouldn't be treated like it's the antichrist.

Because it's a new and untested platform, the OS UI is worth exploring. If it can deliver near the dependability of Blackberry, the ability to keep up with instructions, provide enough flexibility allow some choice within reason [to the average consumer vs the techno-geek], and supports the platform with at least limited OS upgradability, [again, to the average consumer vs the techno-geek], I may be able to get behind this thing. Allow it to grow and it may set a new standard when it has bleeding edge connectivity. As for battery-life, it has not been shown that replacing the battery is necessary and to make incendiary claims otherwise is irresponsibly premature at best.

I don't particularly have a dog in this fight. I just welcome some genuine innovation to kick some other corps in the seat of their pants since they're simply chronically milking their cash cow. I couldn't care less who that innovation came from, quite frankly.

[archie]

The utility remains to be seen.

Well its utility will be context sensitive. Give it 2 points because this is the time tested and proven way of Apple and nobody else does it. Take a point away from other phones for being so dumb as to not do it this way.[/QUOTE]

-2 for no 3G

What good would that do us? I cannot see any benefit. ESPECIALLY considering the recent ban of 3G. Apple has announced twice already that when it comes to Europe it will have 3G so you can settle down.

-3 for no 3rd party apps,

Oh , please...

-1 for no removable battery etc.

I think you should give Apple 2 points for giving twice the battery life of other phones without the need of having to tote around this additional battery of yours.

[Malatesta]

Should serve to allay people's fears of not making it through a day of heavy usage - unless you are mikec, or malaster or surur or any of the other haglers on witch hunt.

It's Malatesta you egotistically fool.

And I have no problems with the iPhone outside of
a) it's not a smartphone
b) not for me
c) disappoints in some areas
d) too expensive
e) AT&T

Combine that with it's "defenders" like you and it does happen to leave a bad taste in my mouth (honestly, you're a poor representative of Apple fans. You reinforce stereotypes that they are arrogant and condescending). However, as I've always maintained the phone will sell and reviews will be mostly positive. It's just not a device for a lot of the Treo crowd. Big deal.

And you know the no-3G argument is rubbish, since it would not have taken a genius to put in the chip and have it upgradeable via software later when then network is up and ready. That's exactly what the Palm 750 and the new Sprint Mogul (6800) have done.

Don't pass off obsolescence and poor choices for prescience.

And since you "know" so much, what about GPS, IM and MMS? Why aren't those there?

[braj]

Removable batteries are more for when the battery goes south of perfect, which is inevitable at some point. But I don't think it is a huge issue, unless it happens to you.

3G definitely would help in downloading and uploading photos, buying music from iTunes (I assume you will be able to do that).

[C201]

And you know the no-3G argument is rubbish, since it would not have taken a genius to put in the chip and have it upgradeable via software later when then network is up and ready.

Tell it to that little sagging company known as RIM and their GSM product management team.

[Certs]

I think it is a bold, daring statement to declare the iPhone "5 years ahead of its time" before it is released. And even to judge that, it becomes SO opinionated that in the end nothing gets settled. For instance:

What, in "functionality", does the iPhone do that a Windows Mobile PPC cannot? Visual voicemail? ANYTHING else????? UI/multitouch are features, not functionality.

I can watch movies on my Treo. I can browse the web, listen to music, email calendar, etc. HOWEVER, I have my bank accounts synced through Quicken on my phone, and I can watch my TV on my phone- any channel, any time, with Slingbox. I can download and read a book, play 100's of games, etc etc.

The iPhone is going to sell, and going to sell big when it is released. But what are consumers going to do when they realize they can do all of this on a phone that costs hundreds less, on a cellular network that is cheaper to boot?

[Certs]

Removable batteries are more for when the battery goes south of perfect, which is inevitable at some point. But I don't think it is a huge issue, unless it happens to you.

3G definitely would help in downloading and uploading photos, buying music from iTunes (I assume you will be able to do that).

You cannot buy music from iTunes directly from the phone. I was surprised about that myself.

The battery life may be an issue for some, but considering that it is non 3G (battery life is double without 3G) it probably will only be an issue for those who use wifi a lot throughout the day. I wouldn't worry about non-wifi normal phone/media operation

[braj]

You cannot buy music from iTunes directly from the phone. I was surprised about that myself.

The battery life may be an issue for some, but considering that it is non 3G (battery life is double without 3G) it probably will only be an issue for those who use wifi a lot throughout the day. I wouldn't worry about non-wifi normal phone/media operation

Hmm, that seems like shooting themselves in the foot to me. It doesn't seem that it would be that hard to do, there are services to buy songs on so many mobile phones these days. I understand not having a full iTunes client but nothing? That seems like a misstep to me.

Again, I think the battery issue is more in case you have a defective or dying old battery. My wife's 2 year old iPod doesn't hold a charge and needs to be plugged in after 15 minutes. For her it isn't a big deal since it only gets used in the car.

I'd like some easy way to chandge the battery if you needed but then the form factor definitely couldn't be as sleek. If you have $600 to spend on a phone though you better have the money to repair it.

Does the ATT phone insurance cover the iPhone?

[archie]

It's Malatesta you egotistically fool.

Sorry about the name.

Combine that with it's "defenders" like you and it does happen to leave a bad taste in my mouth (honestly, you're a poor representative of Apple fans. You reinforce stereotypes that they are arrogant and condescending).

Yes, you make no mistake about it, I am a defender. I seem to have been thrust into this role of being the sole defender of Apple here at TreoCentral because of the constant barrage of inaccuracies thrown at Apple and the iPhone... and many other aspects of Apple.

However, as I've always maintained the phone will sell and reviews will be mostly positive. It's just not a device for a lot of the Treo crowd.

And I've always maintained that it IS a device for a lot of the Treo crowd. At least 20% and as high as 25-33%! That's a move of 20% from the Treo camp to the iPhone camp if you will... and that's within the first year. I can't wait for the numbers to roll in a year from now.

And you know the no-3G argument is rubbish, since it would not have taken a genius to put in the chip and have it upgradeable via software later when then network is up and ready.

I didn't say they haven't done this. But as you allude to here, the networks are not ready, so why offer it? (18-20% is not enough service) Especially considering Apple would be giving up its bargaining chip as I have discussed before. But alas, I realize that you and many others do not believe the reasoning since it is coming from "archie". Whatever...

But on this note, realize that sources are saying "T-Mobile is favored to secure the deal. Both carriers (meaning Vodaphone and T-Mobile) have been active in the music area, but apparently Vodafone's Live! portal would not be a good match with Apple's iTunes software."

So there you have it. The 5th piece of evidence (or is it like the 6th or 7th, I lose track) that my reasoning was correct.

[archie]

What, in "functionality", does the iPhone do that a Windows Mobile PPC cannot? Visual voicemail? ANYTHING else????? UI/multitouch are features, not functionality.

Well, aside from having desktop level access to the net and full iPod functionality, you are right, not much else.

BUT, it is this UI that you mention as "a feature, not functionality" that is important. It is a feature that gives the user an ease of use unseen anywhere else. This ease of use makes the phone more accessible... easier to use. This is what Apple is known for.

They don't rely on specs to sell the product. They rely on usability to sell the product. Specs are worthless if they are included for the mere sake of inclusion.

I can watch movies on my Treo.

Yes but you have to jump through so many hoops to do it.

I can browse the web

I suppose you can kind of do that, but there is no messing around in doing so with the iPhone. And as heard elsewhere, "you get the full-blown internet".

listen to music, email calendar, etc.

Again, easier and quicker to do on the iPhone. The iPhone becomes a useful tool for those in a crunch for time, not a hobbyist's phone that says, hey look what I can make this thing do. I don't have time to be screwing around, poking and prodding to see if something will work. I just need it to work without any fiddling.

[samkim]

And as heard elsewhere, "you get the full-blown internet".

Including Flash?

[C201]

Apparently, maybe yes, maybe no for Version-1 out of the box. :hmm:

http://blog.i2fly.com/?p=392

[braj]

The usability of the iPhone is yet to be proven, I personally prefer hard buttons to soft ones. At least in my experiences up to now. iPhone could change that.

But movies and music on my Treo doesn't involve many hoops, I just put them on my card, and open them in the respective player. I haven't looked into synciing automatically with the desktop because I listen to the same old music with only minimal changes over time. I'm old and boring. I know it is possible but don't know how well it works. On the Palm I have one-button shortcuts to each app so I'm betting it will be easier to access them on my Treo vs the iPhone, which I assume requires you to go to the launcher onscreen, taking what, minimum 2 actions? I don't think you can claim superiority there.

I do have high hopes for Apple to get it right, but one concern is that on Macs as well as Palm the 3rd parties have generally lead the platform in innovative ideas for real-world usability. Without them we can't get the little tweaks that fine-tune the user experience. We'll see.

[marcol]

The utility remains to be seen. Lets give you 1 point for that. Score another 2 points for storage. -2 for no 3G, -3 for no 3rd party apps, -1 for no removable battery etc.

No, that's not how it works in my book! If you ask 'How is the IPhone more advanced (by your criteria of course)?' you don't get to score the criteria for me! I was talking about not just the app launch UI but the UI for every app... and so I'm going to give it +20 for that (you might disagree but it really is subjective, and that's my score )

A few more :

Browser +10.

iTunes integration +15 (without it I'll need an iPod).

Lack of 3G -15 (about equal importance with iTunes integration for me).

iTunes phone app UI +3 (I know I've already had every app UI in the UI +20 above, but I think it deserves extra )

Lack of Exchange push -2 (lack of ability to get Exchange email at all would be -15, but pull is more-or-less good enough).

Virtual rather than physical QWERTY keyboard when typing -5 (very hard to say without actually trying it of course; could be -20, could be +20, although the latter does seem a bit unlikely).

Virtual rather than physical QWERTY when using apps that don't need it or don't need it much +10 (or put another way, virtual rather than physical keyboard is the only way to get a big screen on a small thin device).

Fairly high res screen +10.

(Probably) good battery life +15.

Lack of native third party apps -20 (Could be less if web apps pan out, but that would really need i) the ability to add icons to the launch screen and ii) something like Google Gears for access when off-line. Some apps should be fine despite an on-line requirement, IM for instance - not a lot of use off-line. This all assuming you don't have to close a web app just to open another web page; *I think* the bottom right icon in iPhone Safari is a page switcher. If you have close an app just to open a page though score this -30).

Hardware design +30 (best looking handheld device ever, IMO).

Obviously this is just a bit of fun and doesn't really mean much as I've never touched the device, also the list far from complete. If I do have a slightly more serious point though it's that it's not just about quantity of features, it's at least as much about quality, and people really do value things very differently.

[Pearl_Diva]

Or in the case of Lady Treo, a "full day" of listening to music and also having enough power for phone calls for her sister.

Is this a reference to my old handle? If so, I don't have a sister.

[marcol]

I don't have a sister.

Ah, but it's nice to know you could call her if you did

[llarson]

You would have had a point, had Apple not been systemically deceptive in their marketing of the IPhone. They made all kinds of bizarre comparisons to suite them, while hiding the advantages of the other devices.

Eg. in the original keynote they spoke of how difficult it is to search your contacts, and how you had to re-enter all your contacts each time you switched phones, and how most people dial from their recently called list etc, and he would do his little scrolling thing. On the WM smartphones you just start dialing some-one's name form the today screen - much faster and in fact easier, and of course contacts sync just fine.

He likes comparing his device with dumb phones when it suites him, and smartphones when it doest (e.g. his battery life claims). The man is a charlatan.

Surur

Read his post it is no secret he hates all things iPHONE and trolls here to promote Windows phone systems.

I usually glance over his musings and move on.

[braj]

Read his post it is no secret he hates all things iPHONE and trolls here to promote Windows phone systems.

I usually glance over his musings and move on.

Yep, he's not exactly open to a reasonable discussion.

[surur]

Here's that table, updated with a dash of honesty.



Surur

[archie]

Here's that table, updated with a dash of honesty.



Surur

That's determination!


"Dash of honesty"... please... You mean spin and lies...

like no bluetooth stereo, etc, etc

[surur]

Read his post it is no secret he hates all things iPHONE and trolls here to promote Windows phone systems.

I usually glance over his musings and move on.

I dont recall asking your opinion either.

Surur

[C201]

Are you attempting to deceive or is it innocent that the Treo 750 shows WiFi?

[surur]

That's determination!


"Dash of honesty"... please... You mean spin and lies...

like no bluetooth stereo, etc, etc

Does it have bluetooth stereo? If anyone would know, you would, wouldn't you?

Surur

[surur]

Are you attempting to deceive or is it innocent that the Treo 750 shows WiFi?

If you could read the small print it says "with wifi card"

As the IPhone has no expansion slot its perfectly valid, and actually used by people in the real world.

Surur

[C201]

If you could read the small print it says "with wifi card"

As the IPhone has no expansion slot its perfectly valid, and actually used by people in the real world.

Surur

Come on. Seriously. That's tilted and you know it. Same goes for GPS.

Besides, that 0.5 point type you chose isn't legible. My eyes are bad ... but they're not that bad.