1. surur's Avatar
    Of course the treo 680 got enough derision, mainly for being only a tiny bit thinner and having a VGA camera, but its saving grace was that its very cheap. No-one is hyping the Mungol much, except as an upgrade to a treo. It certainly does not compare to the undeserved hyping the iphone gets.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 11:21 AM
  2. oalvarez's Avatar
    cnet is saying "get there early."

    godzilla
    06-23-2007 11:30 AM
  3. Malatesta's Avatar
    whoa MikeC! surur not a rabid ms supporter? or do i have him confused with Malatesta?
    Actually, I'm OS neutral. I have a 650/Palm OS, a couple of WM devices and I'd use Symbian or Linux if a device came around on Sprint. If the Palm Linux is any good, I'll give it a go too.

    Fact is, WM is the most flexible mobile OS that is available to me (I'm not paying Sprint $40/month for a BB plan).

    I'd buy an iPhone too if it met 3 relatively simple conditions:

    - Sprint (AT&T is awful around here/prices are extortion)
    - 3g
    - GPS

    If it had all of that I'd do a buy/try in a second, seeing as it is not...
    06-23-2007 11:51 AM
  4. surur's Avatar
    I'd buy an iPhone too if it met 3 relatively simple conditions:

    - Sprint (AT&T is awful around here/prices are extortion)
    - 3g
    - GPS

    If it had all of that I'd do a buy/try in a second, seeing as it is not...
    and 3rd party apps?

    Surur
    06-23-2007 12:10 PM
  5. dstrauss#IM's Avatar
    I do talk down the iphone, but then that's mainly because its incredibly hyped.

    Surur
    Kinda like the Fool-eoh (oops, wrong forum; my bad) :cry:
    06-23-2007 12:12 PM
  6. Malatesta's Avatar
    Kinda like the Fool-eoh (oops, wrong forum; my bad) :cry:
    Actually, judging by the response, it's more like anti-hype in the Foleo forum.

    I don't see enadget running stories every 25 mins on the Foleo...or anyone for that matter.
    06-23-2007 12:16 PM
  7. tirk's Avatar
    Actually, judging by the response, it's more like anti-hype in the Foleo forum.
    You are confusing anti-hype with realism.
    06-23-2007 12:24 PM
  8. dstrauss#IM's Avatar
    Actually, judging by the response, it's more like anti-hype in the Foleo forum.

    I don't see enadget running stories every 25 mins on the Foleo...or anyone for that matter.
    I'm talking about Hawkins' hawking
    06-23-2007 12:27 PM
  9. Malatesta's Avatar
    I'm talking about Hawkins' hawking
    Yeah, but honestly...is that even remotely close to Jobs' hype or the rest of the blogosphere? Can you compare the too? Hawkin's may really believe in his project, but I kind of expect that from the guy who developed it.

    I know you meant it as off the cuff and I'm waay over analyzing here, but I just see a vast canyon between the two and perceptions.
    06-23-2007 01:04 PM
  10. oalvarez's Avatar
    i'm sure it's been asked, so forgive me if it has;

    what's wrong with hype? why the fuss?

    it's a marketing strategy, beyond that, it's what the media and the rest of us have made of it.

    cool?
    06-23-2007 01:14 PM
  11. surur's Avatar
    i'm sure it's been asked, so forgive me if it has;

    what's wrong with hype? why the fuss?

    it's a marketing strategy, beyond that, it's what the media and the rest of us have made of it.

    cool?
    Thats a strange attitude. We have laws against deceptive advertising for a reason.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 01:17 PM
  12. oalvarez's Avatar
    so why not put together a class-action lawsuit my man?

    surur and his minions vs. apple

    what do you think your chances are?
    06-23-2007 01:24 PM
  13. tirk's Avatar
    i'm sure it's been asked, so forgive me if it has;

    what's wrong with hype? why the fuss?

    it's a marketing strategy, beyond that, it's what the media and the rest of us have made of it.

    cool?
    Apple go way beyond normal methods and into evangelism marketing, which many people find irritating or down-right offensive.
    06-23-2007 01:26 PM
  14. bruckwine's Avatar
    I think it is a bold, daring statement to declare the iPhone "5 years ahead of its time" before it is released. And even to judge that, it becomes SO opinionated that in the end nothing gets settled. For instance:

    What, in "functionality", does the iPhone do that a Windows Mobile PPC cannot? Visual voicemail? ANYTHING else????? UI/multitouch are features, not functionality.

    I can watch movies on my Treo. I can browse the web, listen to music, email calendar, etc. HOWEVER, I have my bank accounts synced through Quicken on my phone, and I can watch my TV on my phone- any channel, any time, with Slingbox. I can download and read a book, play 100's of games, etc etc.

    The iPhone is going to sell, and going to sell big when it is released. But what are consumers going to do when they realize they can do all of this on a phone that costs hundreds less, on a cellular network that is cheaper to boot?

    Agree with you..if I get an iPhone it'll be soley or the gimmick (the UI) as my treo already does everything it can in terms of functionality and more. and I'll wait until ppl figure out how to unlock 'em of course as I don't even live int he US!

    Hmm, that seems like shooting themselves in the foot to me. It doesn't seem that it would be that hard to do, there are services to buy songs on so many mobile phones these days. I understand not having a full iTunes client but nothing? That seems like a misstep to me.

    Again, I think the battery issue is more in case you have a defective or dying old battery. My wife's 2 year old iPod doesn't hold a charge and needs to be plugged in after 15 minutes. For her it isn't a big deal since it only gets used in the car.

    I'd like some easy way to chandge the battery if you needed but then the form factor definitely couldn't be as sleek. If you have $600 to spend on a phone though you better have the money to repair it.

    Does the ATT phone insurance cover the iPhone?
    I've replaced an iPod battery with those do-ti-yerself "easy" kits - it's hell! Imagine the phone battery going bad after 15 months ala some iPods and having to a. pay close to $100 plus s&h to Apple or b. doing ti yourself (for about $40 prolly on a battery off eBay.

    I think any device w/o removable battery is just plan dumb now...I've had experiences with batteries dying ro just draining and dto have to dock such a phone cuz you forgot to charge it one night is incovenient...AFTER paying $500 -$600 plus contract!
    06-23-2007 01:37 PM
  15. surur's Avatar
    so why not put together a class-action lawsuit my man?

    surur and his minions vs. apple

    what do you think your chances are?
    Deflating Archie's hype in person is much more fun. We all do our own little part.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 01:37 PM
  16. bruckwine's Avatar
    Same with XP. I said that the other day, remember? Looks to me like both XP and OSX need bug fixes. When I was using my Powerbook, I recall Apple had so many updated version numbers of OSX, I couldn't keep track! But XP updates are through the roof!! They're more alike than we think, LOL!

    So true..I've used macs since OS 8 and since OS X 10.1 the OS has become like Windows - buggy. Maybe not as buggy but it's also because there's less of a threat. Apple makes large fix updates periodically (can be anywhere from 30 - 200 MB sometimes every few months) while Windows sends a continuous stream (usually 1 - 30 MB depending usually monthly) simply because the OS is more attractive to hackers and the like and thus more likely to suffer from attacks on it.

    i have a pc w/xp. i have a mac w/osx. what have "i" witnessed? that i'm constantly receiving windows xp updates and with my mac i am not.

    why is that?
    See above.
    06-23-2007 05:09 PM
  17. HowardH's Avatar
    So true..I've used macs since OS 8 and since OS X 10.1 the OS has become like Windows - buggy. Maybe not as buggy but it's also because there's less of a threat. Apple makes large fix updates periodically (can be anywhere from 30 - 200 MB sometimes every few months) while Windows sends a continuous stream (usually 1 - 30 MB depending usually monthly) simply because the OS is more attractive to hackers and the like and thus more likely to suffer from attacks on it.



    See above.
    While there is certainly some truth to the fact that Wintel is a significantly more attractive target to hackers based on the market share, a detailed analysis of the security methodology in both OS X and Windows shows that it is absolutely not the only reason.

    The approaches to security (even in Vista, never mind XP) vs OS X is startlingly different.
    06-23-2007 05:35 PM
  18. Certs's Avatar
    While there is certainly some truth to the fact that Wintel is a significantly more attractive target to hackers based on the market share, a detailed analysis of the security methodology in both OS X and Windows shows that it is absolutely not the only reason.

    The approaches to security (even in Vista, never mind XP) vs OS X is startlingly different.
    I happen to believe it is the only reason myself. Or 90% of the reason. Hacking takes time, and why spend that time on some macs when you have millions of PC's...



    If they wanted to get in, they could. For every engineer, there's an equally intelligent hacker out there, Thats my .02
    06-23-2007 05:44 PM
  19. bruckwine's Avatar
    Anyway, typical tactic of yours, side stepping the fact that I was correct (about the iPhones effectiveness and it's utility, as well as the many other things I included just now in that bulleted list) by quickly changing the subject to WM6.
    Dunning-Kruger syndrome?
    06-23-2007 05:55 PM
  20. bruckwine's Avatar
    PS @ HowardH as Pattycerts points out there are plenty ppl that can hack ANYTHING...but it's more fun taking down the bigger boys...if Apple continues on there upward trend (now about 6% PC share?? have no idea) they will become more attractive as a target..but Microsoft will always be the Holy Hacker Grail! More chaos!
    06-23-2007 05:58 PM
  21. Malatesta's Avatar
    Dunning-Kruger syndrome?
    lol. I just wiki'd and I have to say, I like it.
    06-23-2007 06:01 PM
  22. surur's Avatar
    PS @ HowardH as Pattycerts points out there are plenty ppl that can hack ANYTHING...but it's more fun taking down the bigger boys...if Apple continues on there upward trend (now about 6% PC share?? have no idea) they will become more attractive as a target..but Microsoft will always be the Holy Hacker Grail! More chaos!
    A simple example was that Mac hacking contest, where they they finally broke in by having some-one click on a malicious link. The vulnerability was found from scratch in 12 hours. If hackers wanted to exploit this they could have easily (by sending HTML e-mail for example), but 5% of the market is just a waste of time.

    Surur
    06-23-2007 06:02 PM
  23. HowardH's Avatar
    PS @ HowardH as Pattycerts points out there are plenty ppl that can hack ANYTHING...but it's more fun taking down the bigger boys...if Apple continues on there upward trend (now about 6% PC share?? have no idea) they will become more attractive as a target..but Microsoft will always be the Holy Hacker Grail! More chaos!
    Well - that statement can be challenged (anything can be hacked). However - I'm sure that the Mac CAN be hacked, there's no doubt in my mind. But again, a security analysis shows that there is a significant difference between the various OSs out there.

    There have been several contests recently where the objective has been to hack into a Mac placed on the 'net. The most recent one was ended when the contest holders changed the rules to allow a remote exploit to occur with the assistance of a user being at the machine and executing specific web code. So in the end it was hacked, but they had to change the rules of the contest to make it happen.

    Simplistically, look at the absolute basics in security between Vista's brand new security subsystem (based on authorization) and the established authentication based system in OS X. Fundamentally they're still miles apart. We can sum up the new Vista security with "are you sure?", which is a stark contrast to other secure OSs.
    06-23-2007 06:11 PM
  24. HowardH's Avatar
    A simple example was that Mac hacking contest, where they they finally broke in by having some-one click on a malicious link. The vulnerability was found from scratch in 12 hours. If hackers wanted to exploit this they could have easily (by sending HTML e-mail for example), but 5% of the market is just a waste of time.

    Surur
    Exactly my point. The changed the rules to allow the exploit to occur. Effectively a social engineering exploit.
    06-23-2007 06:13 PM
  25. surur's Avatar
    Exactly my point. The changed the rules to allow the exploit to occur. Effectively a social engineering exploit.
    Not quite. Clicking on a link is a very common vector of attack. This wasn't a user installed trojan. It was an actual exploited hole in quicktime I think.

    The ease Dai Zovi found in pwning the machine was all the more remarkable, given an update Apple pushed out yesterday patching 25 Mac security holes. Macaulay described Dai Zovi's vulnerability as a client-side javascript error that executed arbitrary code when Safari visited a booby-trapped website.

    The pwn-2-own contest got off to a slow start on Thursday. The rules originally mandated an exploit that required no action on the part of the user. The reward for a successful hack was the machine that had been compromised. Conference attendees were underwhelmed, reasoning a Mac exploit that required no end-user interaction could be sold for upwards of $20,000. Things changed significantly on Day 2.

    That's when Tipping Point upped the ante with its promise of a $10,000 bounty. Contest organizers also relaxed the rules so exploits could include malicious websites that attacked Safari. At the time of writing, a second MacBook Pro had successfully withstood attacks.
    You have a false sense of security (by obscurity).

    Surur
    06-23-2007 06:16 PM
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