1. surur's Avatar
    While I love my Eurogeeks as much as the next guy, Europe lags the US in wireless data.

    Europe only had a cell phone boom because of the industry rules - calling party pays (as opposed to US model of both parties pay).

    And of course, the GSM standard helps.

    Given the market, the whole model is to make money off the phones, not the service. This leads to more handsets, etc.

    As for knee-jerk for the iPhone, I 'm not sure what you mean...I bet all the Eurogeeks are creaming themselves for the latest Cupertino creation.
    I dont think that bold part is true. Calling party pays is very good, because it puts you in control of your mobile expenditure. This helped the mobile phone boom while calling charges were very high, which was a stimulus for the adoption of the technology.

    The big variety of handsets are primarily fueled by the bling-factor of having the latest handset. Contracts tend to be one year long, and churn is high, so to retain a off-contract customer the carrier has to offer the latest handset.

    To steal the very same customer away the other carriers would offer a good handset and very steep subsidies, often free.

    So primarily its a social phenomena, not a technological one.

    The carriers make their money on calling plans, not on the handsets itself. Recently they have been promoting data services as an additional revenue earner, but this is still slow to get up and running.

    This is the UK perspective BTW.

    Re euro-geeks wanting the IPhone - I think it needs at least GPS to make it extremely desirable, else it will look just like a mid-range device.

    Surur
    06-16-2007 09:06 PM
  2. C201's Avatar
    I dont think that bold part is true. Calling party pays is very good, because it puts you in control of your mobile expenditure. This helped the mobile phone boom while calling charges were very high, which was a stimulus for the adoption of the technology.

    The big variety of handsets are primarily fueled by the bling-factor of having the latest handset. Contracts tend to be one year long, and churn is high, so to retain a off-contract customer the carrier has to offer the latest handset.

    To steal the very same customer away the other carriers would offer a good handset and very steep subsidies, often free.

    So primarily its a social phenomena, not a technological one.

    The carriers make their money on calling plans, not on the handsets itself. Recently they have been promoting data services as an additional revenue earner, but this is still slow to get up and running.

    This is the UK perspective BTW.

    Re euro-geeks wanting the IPhone - I think it needs at least GPS to make it extremely desirable, else it will look just like a mid-range device.

    Surur
    Very well stated, surur. What appalls me is the knee-jerk reaction to Apple by some who complain about US offerings. As if Samsung. Moto, or even [gasp] HTC is breaking the mold and creating anything which pushes the envelope to the point of risking it all. Would those complaining about Apple prefer this baby was aborted vs allowed to be born and grow into something more substantial?
    06-16-2007 10:21 PM
  3. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Surur,

    I agree with you on a lot. My viewpoint on the sale of handets being more profitable is based out of research and analysis of the major carriers and their relative profits on phones.

    But it's okay to agree to disagree...unless you are archie ;-)
    06-16-2007 10:49 PM
  4. braj's Avatar
    Yeah, I think the fact that they offer quality handsets for close to free shows that they want your contract more than the sale of a phone. And with smartphones they tie the discount to a data plan and long contract. They aren't marketing the phones but the service that comes with them. The phone is just the carrot.
    06-16-2007 11:01 PM
  5. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    Very well stated, surur. What appalls me is the knee-jerk reaction to Apple by some who complain about US offerings. As if Samsung. Moto, or even [gasp] HTC is breaking the mold and creating anything which pushes the envelope to the point of risking it all. Would those complaining about Apple prefer this baby was aborted vs allowed to be born and grow into something more substantial?
    No, I myself would like to see the phone come out. The screen rules!

    But why can't they put a simple IM client on a $600 LOCKED phone? No 3G chip on the only US 3G network(although that may have something to do with Qualcomm) which they happen to be on? No 3rd party apps? So will Apple be responding to market demand when the need for a 3rd party app arises(and it almost always does), and fill the gap by allowing us to download apps it created in place of 3rd party apps? Will this sync with business email? From what I understand, maybe not.

    And I'm not an Apple hater, far from it. Just at that price point and that contract requirement, I then have to start looking at value vs. coolness.

    I will say about the 3 manufacturers you mentioned, they use 3G chips in some of their phones. They also have IM clients. They also have offerings that sync with business email. At this point, some of their phones are more usable than the iPhone for my needs. Although I don't like Moto, LOL!
    06-17-2007 03:05 AM
  6. C201's Avatar
    [COLOR="Navy"]No, I myself would like to see the phone come out. The screen rules!

    But why can't they put a simple IM client on a $600 LOCKED phone? No 3G chip on the only US 3G network(although that may have something to do with Qualcomm) which they happen to be on? No 3rd party apps? So will Apple be responding to market demand when the need for a 3rd party app arises(and it almost always does), and fill the gap by allowing us to download apps it created in place of 3rd party apps? Will this sync with business email? From what I understand, maybe not.
    Honestly, [if there's such a thing among internet forums], what effect do you believe regurgitating the same complaints has on a potential buying market? The same posters repeating the same complaints, ad nauseum, with no regard. It's the puritanical mob mentality that keeps innovation away from the US market ... which feeds the mob's lust to complain. If only an equal degree of energy were applied to the things in life that really matter besides a $ in their pocket.
    06-17-2007 01:19 PM
  7. bruckwine's Avatar
    Europe only had a cell phone boom because of the industry rules - calling party pays (as opposed to US model of both parties pay).

    And of course, the GSM standard helps.
    Same in the entire Caribbean too (except Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands) - better imo..why should I pay for a call I didn't make esp if it's a wrong number or someone I knew called me by accident?! The US needs to "get with it" on that one!
    06-17-2007 01:40 PM
  8. mikec#IM's Avatar
    I agree...cell phones should be like landlines...calling party pays...but the FCC decided that consumers needed a good bending over.

    The worst is charging to receive text messages...you can't control that (unless you shut it off completely.)
    06-17-2007 02:13 PM
  9. C201's Avatar
    I agree...cell phones should be like landlines...calling party pays...but the FCC decided that consumers needed a good bending over.
    Of course, the carriers didn't lobby for this. It never has to do with money, does it?
    06-17-2007 02:16 PM
  10. bruckwine's Avatar
    I agree...cell phones should be like landlines...calling party pays...but the FCC decided that consumers needed a good bending over.

    The worst is charging to receive text messages...you can't control that (unless you shut it off completely.)
    Are you serious? I never even noticed THAT charge,...when i was in the US i used T-Mo ad as I already had an unlocked phone it was ok..but the pay both sides thing sucks!
    06-17-2007 02:34 PM
  11. beachtrader's Avatar
    Read my post again. Afford it means to me it practical, cost effective and does everything you need. An expensive car that I can't carry the kids in is not a good value for me.
    Well then I was confused by your use of afford. To me, afford means to have the money to buy, not want or desire: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/afford . If the phone doesn't meet your needs that is okay, but then you would not have a strong interest in buying it then--you would just be like the other 91%. You could afford it, but choose not to buy it because it doesn't fit your needs. That's clearly a different situation than someone wanting a $100,000 car and not being able to afford it. Or a situation where you need a minivan to haul 8 people but are looking at a 2-seater sports car. In both these situations you would *NOT* have a strong interest in buying one of these and would not show up in the 9%.

    It appears to me you don't like some missing features of the phone, and that is fine, but your post clearly tries to downplay the fact that 9% of the people who can afford the iPhone and have a strong interest in buying it. Just because you are in the majority does not mean the minority is wrong or the survey is wrong.
    06-17-2007 06:49 PM
  12. braj's Avatar
    Well then I was confused by your use of afford. To me, afford means to have the money to buy, not want or desire: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/afford . If the phone doesn't meet your needs that is okay, but then you would not have a strong interest in buying it then--you would just be like the other 91%. You could afford it, but choose not to buy it because it doesn't fit your needs. That's clearly a different situation than someone wanting a $100,000 car and not being able to afford it. Or a situation where you need a minivan to haul 8 people but are looking at a 2-seater sports car. In both these situations you would *NOT* have a strong interest in buying one of these and would not show up in the 9%.

    It appears to me you don't like some missing features of the phone, and that is fine, but your post clearly tries to downplay the fact that 9% of the people who can afford the iPhone and have a strong interest in buying it. Just because you are in the majority does not mean the minority is wrong or the survey is wrong.
    Of the people surveyed, how many had researched it enough to know it didn't have a replaceable battery, no IM, and you couldn't install any apps? How serious were they? I had a 'strong interest in buying one' myself before maybe two weeks ago when more info about the device was revealed. And I have great motivation to get one since I have friends that work for Apple asking me if I want one for a cool $350 with their discount. But I bought a Treo instead for $240 (and no limiting contract) because it is the minivan as opposed to the Ferrari.
    06-17-2007 07:02 PM
  13. braj's Avatar
    And really many people can afford a Ferrari (at the expense of many other things) but if they get it they'd have to buy another car to take the family out, increasing the costs even beyong the already expensive sports car. So it makes no sense and isn't 'affordable', the total costs are not reasonable though possible to 'afford' (if you think that is just the ability to purchase).

    I think the iPhone will be a fine device for the people it suits, I just think it is not cost-effective for most people. It is like a Ferrari with all it's wonders and limitations. But you sure want to look at it as it drives down the road.

    I would
    06-17-2007 07:09 PM
  14. C201's Avatar
    Still comparing iPhones to Ferraris? :hmm:
    06-17-2007 07:46 PM
  15. oalvarez's Avatar
    we'll all get this squared away and sorted out in soon time. by the way, i was at an apple store down in newport beach today....i know it's a kooky demographic but what i saw did truly surprise me. i personally witnessed 3 macbooks and 3 ipods being purchased in all of the 10 minutes that i was cruising around the store....nuts.

    june 29, 6pm is what they're sayin....the salesperson had no idea if one was going to be able to initiate coverage right there at the store....i wouldn't think so but it was odd that he had no idea. oh well.
    06-17-2007 08:16 PM
  16. beachtrader's Avatar
    Of the people surveyed, how many had researched it enough to know it didn't have a replaceable battery, no IM, and you couldn't install any apps? How serious were they? I had a 'strong interest in buying one' myself before maybe two weeks ago when more info about the device was revealed. And I have great motivation to get one since I have friends that work for Apple asking me if I want one for a cool $350 with their discount. But I bought a Treo instead for $240 (and no limiting contract) because it is the minivan as opposed to the Ferrari.
    Again, you are talking apples to my oranges. You assume that IM, apps and battery are issues for everyone. (for instance, how many phones actually have IM? of the hundreds of millions out there?) When you are stating your preferences not speaking for the entire public. That's why the number is at 9%, not 99%.

    Just because these particular preferences are not available does not mean the number will be lower--you can't tell. The number might be higher or lower depending on what people think when they "test drive" it. However, strong buy interest usually translates to a purchase. Even if the number is 1/2 of the 9% that would still blow away target goals set by Apple (1%).
    06-17-2007 08:50 PM
  17. braj's Avatar
    Still comparing iPhones to Ferraris? :hmm:
    It is probably the sleekest, slickest cel phone available currently, and @ $600 probably 10x the cost the average person wants to spend on a cel phone, when you can get a phone that can make a call from point a to point b just as well if not better. I think it's an apt comparison. Ferraris are 10x the price of an average $20,000 car.

    I would love to see Palm OS modernized with the Quartz-type animations and graphic goodness Apple brings to the table. But it would likely end up more like a Camero than a Ferrari. Which is OK.
    06-17-2007 08:56 PM
  18. braj's Avatar
    Again, you are talking apples to my oranges. You assume that IM, apps and battery are issues for everyone. (for instance, how many phones actually have IM? of the hundreds of millions out there?) When you are stating your preferences not speaking for the entire public. That's why the number is at 9%, not 99%.

    Just because these particular preferences are not available does not mean the number will be lower--you can't tell. The number might be higher or lower depending on what people think when they "test drive" it. However, strong buy interest usually translates to a purchase. Even if the number is 1/2 of the 9% that would still blow away target goals set by Apple (1%).
    The '9% of people...' poll is meaningless. It's just like bad science, people don't scrutinize how many people were sampled, who analyzed the data, how the question was asked, where the question was asked.
    06-17-2007 09:11 PM
  19. C201's Avatar
    It is probably the sleekest, slickest cel phone available currently, and @ $600 probably 10x the cost the average person wants to spend on a cel phone, when you can get a phone that can make a call from point a to point b just as well if not better. I think it's an apt comparison. Ferraris are 10x the price of an average $20,000 car.

    I would love to see Palm OS modernized with the Quartz-type animations and graphic goodness Apple brings to the table. But it would likely end up more like a Camero than a Ferrari. Which is OK.
    Try comparing apples to apples [no pun intended] and your opinion may get past this regurgitated stuck-in-mud position it's in currently. A bit of intellectual honestly is called for here. Are you up to it and self-correct?
    06-17-2007 09:45 PM
  20. MacUser's Avatar
    we'll all get this squared away and sorted out in soon time. by the way, i was at an apple store down in newport beach today....i know it's a kooky demographic but what i saw did truly surprise me. i personally witnessed 3 macbooks and 3 ipods being purchased in all of the 10 minutes that i was cruising around the store....nuts.

    june 29, 6pm is what they're sayin....the salesperson had no idea if one was going to be able to initiate coverage right there at the store....i wouldn't think so but it was odd that he had no idea. oh well.
    I've got an AT&T store and an Apple store right across from each other in the mall by me. I'm wondering how crazy that's going to be...

    I don't get out of work till 3pm hope that's not too late to get a decent spot.
    06-17-2007 09:48 PM
  21. braj's Avatar
    Try comparing apples to apples [no pun intended] and your opinion may get past this regurgitated stuck-in-mud position it's in currently. A bit of intellectual honestly is called for here. Are you up to it and self-correct?
    I'm not sure what you are trying to say. So car analogies are lame, I admit that. You happy?
    06-17-2007 10:19 PM
  22. beachtrader's Avatar
    The '9% of people...' poll is meaningless. It's just like bad science, people don't scrutinize how many people were sampled, who analyzed the data, how the question was asked, where the question was asked.
    And you know this how? Years of Market Research and/or Statistics?

    Why don't you just admit you won't buy the iPhone because it doesn't fit your needs and be done with it? Merely bashing something which isn't right for you has zero impact on everyone else. Why are you trolling the thread?
    06-17-2007 10:30 PM
  23. C201's Avatar
    And you know this how? Years of Market Research and/or Statistics?

    Why don't you just admit you won't buy the iPhone because it doesn't fit your needs and be done with it? Merely bashing something which isn't right for you has zero impact on everyone else. Why are you trolling the thread?
    Please give credit where credit is due. He's trolling every new thread that involves iPhone.
    06-17-2007 10:34 PM
  24. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    Honestly, [if there's such a thing among internet forums], what effect do you believe regurgitating the same complaints has on a potential buying market? The same posters repeating the same complaints, ad nauseum, with no regard. It's the puritanical mob mentality that keeps innovation away from the US market ... which feeds the mob's lust to complain. If only an equal degree of energy were applied to the things in life that really matter besides a $ in their pocket.

    If you have a problem with me, then don't read or respond to my posts!! I'm only telling the reasons why I'M going to think carefully before getting an iPhone!! Did I say YOU didn't have right to spend your money on it? Can't you figure out I'm speaking from MY perspective?

    BTW, does the "ignore poster" button work? If so, USE IT!! I'm FAR from puritanical and I don't appreciate your generalizations!!! You need to get over yourself, seriously!!
    06-17-2007 10:54 PM
  25. Insertion's Avatar


    BTW, does the "ignore poster" button work? If so, USE IT!! I'm FAR from puritanical and I don't appreciate your generalizations!!! You need to get over yourself, seriously!!
    hehehehe, I remember when I had that as my signature!
    06-17-2007 10:58 PM
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