Will iPhone kill the Treo franchise?

[marcol]

Marco's was an excellent answer.

Why thank you, kind sir

 

[whmurray]

I just bought a touch screen MP3 player. The interface is also "virtual", but it recognizes all I'm doing, so are the controls "real" or not?

Now you all have me interested in what type of technology these devices use.

I really do not get this thread. Does no one here remember /K, the keyboard on the Palm that can only be used with the stylus? Does no one remember Grafitti? My recollection is that we got along pretty well with those. Even the thumb board on the Treo is a compromise. If one wants to be a semantic purist about keyboards, one must think of the old Remington.

I doubt that the success of the iPhone is going to turn on any single feature. Let's take this thread back to its root or on to something else more interesting.

 

[marcol]

Now you all have me interested in what type of technology these devices use.

You mean screen technology? I'm very far from being an expert but I'll have a go.

The iPhone has a capacitive touchscreen:

https://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/#mn_p

Capacitive screens work quite differently to the resistive touchscreens found on Treos and most other phones.

Resistive screens have two layers a short distance apart and sense touch when the upper layer is deformed by the pressure of an object (any object) such that the two layers make contact. An electrical current runs through the two layers and when they touch the electrical field is altered and this allows calculation of point of contact.

A capacitive screen has a layer of stored electrical charge on its surface and when you touch it some of the charge is transferred to your finger. The local decrease in charge is detected and allows calculation of where the screen was touched. Capacitive screens don't need to deform to work and can thus be much tougher, but they do require that you touch them either with a bare finger or a capacitive device held in a bare hand.

Touchpads on laptops work by capacitive technology and I wondered if you can get some idea of how an iPhone screen will work from them. My detailed experimentation (not) shows that touch of the touchpad with a finger is detected, touch with a wooden pencil held in a hand isn't registered, but touch with an empty Coke can held in a hand is registered after a fashion - it moves the cursor around a bit, although not in a very controlled way.

Again, I'm no expert and most of the above is based on the articles linked below.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question716.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen
http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20070604PD213.html

There is of course at least one other phone with a capacitive screen, the LG Prada. One thing the iPhone and the Prada share is the lack of a raised bit of casing (bezel?) around the screen. This is a good thing in my view.

Surur reckons the HTC Touch also has a capacitive screen, but I've not seen that confirmed. It's a bit hard to tell if it has a bezel (not that that should be regarded as completely diagnostic anyway):

 

[marcol]

I doubt that the success of the iPhone is going to turn on any single feature. Let's take this thread back to its root or on to something else more interesting.

Oops. Sorry

 

[surur]

Surur reckons the HTC Touch also has a capacitive screen, but I've not seen that confirmed. It's a bit hard to tell if it has a bezel (not that that should be regarded as completely diagnostic anyway):

I did not say that. In fact, I do not know what kind of screen they are using, but it certainly does not seem to be the old style resistive, and it does not seem to be capacitive either.

We should do HTC patent searches like we do Apple ones.

Surur

 

[whmurray]

You mean screen technology? I'm very far from being an expert but I'll have a go.

The iPhone has a capacitive touchscreen:

https://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/#mn_p
was touched. Capacitive screens don't need to deform to work and can thus be much tougher, but they do require that you touch them either with a bare finger or a capacitive device held in a bare hand.

[Thanks for the change of subject.]

I think that the capacitive screen and "multi-touch" are closely related and will be important to the success of the iPhone. It remains to be seen, but Multi-touch may top Graffiti as an innovation and even rival the mouse.

 

[Certs]

According to the ROM cookers for the Hermes, who are trying to extract the "touch" interface from the elf to their ROM's, there is definitely something "different" with the elf's screen. It detects and measures pressure is what I think they said. What is different about it is still unclear, it might just be a registry setting they're missing.

 

[marcol]

I did not say that. In fact, I do not know what kind of screen they are using, but it certainly does not seem to be the old style resistive, and it does not seem to be capacitive either.

My addled memory seems to have stored your saying "seems to be different from our usual passive touch screen" as "it has a capacitve screen". Obviously this is completely wrong. Sorry!

We should do HTC patent searches like we do Apple ones.

Here you go:

http://www.google.com/patents

 

[Certs]

[Thanks for the change of subject.]

I think that the capacitive screen and "multi-touch" are closely related and will be important to the success of the iPhone. It remains to be seen, but Multi-touch may top Graffiti as an innovation and even rival the mouse.

That's what apple is banking on, and I will not judge until I use it, but I am a little pessimistic about it. "Multi-touch" also means TWO HANDS, which I'm sure some people won't mind but I know some will. Even at the keynote, Jobs was holding the device with one hand and interacting w/the phone with the other. I like one-handed use myself (as do most treo users), so we'll see how conducive that is on the iPhone.

 

[whmurray]

My addled memory seems to have stored your saying "seems to be different from our usual passive touch screen" as "it has a capacitve screen". Obviously this is completely wrong. Sorry!

lol

 

[surur]

Here you go:

http://www.google.com/patents

I'm looking now. They do not have too many patents, and the only relevant one seems to be some kind of dual measuring resistive screen. Of course they could have licensed some-one else's patent. Of interest is that AOL seems to own a patent on a self-correcting virtual keyboard like the Iphone has.

Surur

 

[surur]

That's what apple is banking on, and I will not judge until I use it, but I am a little pessimistic about it. "Multi-touch" also means TWO HANDS, which I'm sure some people won't mind but I know some will. Even at the keynote, Jobs was holding the device with one hand and interacting w/the phone with the other. I like one-handed use myself (as do most treo users), so we'll see how conducive that is on the iPhone.

Thats what's nice about the HTC Touch. They seemed to have designed the device to be used with the thumb of the hand holding it. Pretty sensible.

Surur

 

[whmurray]

That's what apple is banking on, and I will not judge until I use it, but I am a little pessimistic about it. "Multi-touch" also means TWO HANDS, which I'm sure some people won't mind but I know some will. Even at the keynote, Jobs was holding the device with one hand and interacting w/the phone with the other. I like one-handed use myself (as do most treo users), so we'll see how conducive that is on the iPhone.

Good point. While I do use the Treo in one-hand mode, there are many operations that require two hands, for example, browsing. I think that I often switch from one mode to the other without noticing.

 

[marcol]

I think that the capacitive screen and "multi-touch" are closely related

Certainly the only multi-touch I've used is the (capacitive) touchpad on my MacBook: drag two fingers to scroll, tap two fingers to 'right click' etc.

 

[marcol]

Thats what's nice about the HTC Touch. They seemed to have designed the device to be used with the thumb of the hand holding it. Pretty sensible.

While that's true and I agree it's sensible, TouchFLO has a more limited set of functions and I think most (all?) of those could probably be done one-handed on the iPhone (I'd certainly guess that launching apps and scrolling would be doable one handed).

 

[surur]

While that's true and I agree it's sensible, TouchFLO has a more limited set of functions and I think most (all?) of those could probably be done one-handed on the iPhone (I'd certainly guess that launching apps and scrolling would be doable one handed).

I think the Iphone is actually too large to be used solely with one hand, and still have a secure grip on the device. Also small thumbs would not be able to reach all the way across the screen, and Iphone icons are also pretty small.

Surur

 

[mdavis]

I think the debate was not over whether touch controls are real but whether they are touch controls or not. I'll bet yours are touch controls. If you really shook it hard, is there any danger they would fall off? That would be one sign they are real and not virutal.

 

[whmurray]

I think the debate was not over whether touch controls are real but whether they are touch controls or not. I'll bet yours are touch controls. If you really shook it hard, is there any danger they would fall off? That would be one sign they are real and not virutal.

You've got your teeth in it and you cannot let go, can you?

 

[marcol]

I think the Iphone is actually too large to be used solely with one hand, and still have a secure grip on the device. Also small thumbs would not be able to reach all the way across the screen, and Iphone icons are also pretty small.

The iPhone and Touch are actually quite similar sizes:

iPhone: 115 x 61 x 11.6 mm, 81.4 cm3

Touch: 99.9 x 58 x 13.9 mm, 80.5 cm3

You may be right about small hands but I'm guessing I'd have no problems reaching any part with the thumb of the hand I'd hold it with. I can reach any part of my E61 and it's bigger in all dimensions. I think tapping the main app icons should be fine too, but as with most things iPhone it's a matter of waiting and seeing before you can be sure. That said, I do suspect that many people would use it two-handed much of the time and it might well feel more natural that way.

 

[marcol]

I think the debate was not over whether touch controls are real but whether they are touch controls or not.

I think they are