1. surur's Avatar
    Archie Archie Archie... Verizon if famous for having full control of the devices they sell. Clearly they wanted the IPhone to use THEIR service to buy music. Funnily enough Cingular does not have the same reputation. Saying Apple would DELIBERATELY CRIPPLE their device just to avoid being forced to use Cingular's WMA based service is beyond ridiculous.

    Surur
    02-22-2007 02:52 PM
  2. archie's Avatar
    Archie Archie Archie... Verizon if famous for having full control of the devices they sell. Clearly they wanted the IPhone to use THEIR service to buy music. Funnily enough Cingular does not have the same reputation. Saying Apple would DELIBERATELY CRIPPLE their device just to avoid being forced to use Cingular's WMA based service is beyond ridiculous.

    Surur
    HA!

    I wish you would read what you post here because THAT is "beyond ridiculous".

    Here, let me repeat for you in my own post for you: blah, blah, blah... Archie is always wrong and has no idea what he is talking about. Clearly I do because what is so ridiculous is that archie thinks that Apple doesn't want to use Microsoft's WMA based content on the Apple iPhone.

    This is good stuff. Seriously, I burst out laughing when I read this.

    Let me summarize it, can I—bwhaa, ha, ha, ha.
    Hey everybody, surur doesn't think Apple would have a problem in supporting and strengthening Microsoft's WMA format in lieu of Apple's own "heart & soul", "life blood", "5 year court fighting worthy", "iTunes + iPod essence" technology called QuickTime.

    BWHAAAAA HA HA HAH A!
    03-22-2007 04:52 PM
  3. surur's Avatar
    HA!

    I wish you would read what you post here because THAT is "beyond ridiculous".

    Here, let me repeat for you in my own post for you: blah, blah, blah... Archie is always wrong and has no idea what he is talking about. Clearly I do because what is so ridiculous is that archie thinks that Apple doesn't want to use Microsoft's WMA based content on the Apple iPhone.

    This is good stuff. Seriously, I burst out laughing when I read this.

    Let me summarize it, can I—bwhaa, ha, ha, ha.
    Hey everybody, surur doesn't think Apple would have a problem in supporting and strengthening Microsoft's WMA format in lieu of Apple's own "heart & soul", "life blood", "5 year court fighting worthy", "iTunes + iPod essence" technology called QuickTime.

    BWHAAAAA HA HA HAH A!
    You are clearly a great believer in cutting off your nose to spite your face. How about Apple just saying no, without deliberately crippling their device? Not Machiavellian enough?

    Surur
    03-22-2007 06:50 PM
  4. archie's Avatar
    You are clearly a great believer in cutting off your nose to spite your face. How about Apple just saying no, without deliberately crippling their device? Not Machiavellian enough?

    Surur
    ummm... refer to my initial post. You know, the one you chose to discount.
    03-22-2007 07:21 PM
  5. surur's Avatar
    ummm... refer to my initial post. You know, the one you chose to discount.
    So what it comes down to is this; Cingular wants the iPhone exclusive. Apple doesn't want Cingular Video. So the only elegant way around that problem is to make the iPhone incapable of operating on the 3G network.
    That you actually believe this is rather amazing. Is there also a conspiracy over why the IPhone does not have a keyboard?

    Apple was already in a strong negotiating position. They did not have to do something so idiotic to avoid carrying Cingular Video. That you actually believe your explanation is reasonable speaks rather poorly of your reasoning ability.

    Surur
    03-22-2007 08:15 PM
  6. archie's Avatar
    Hmph! Well, we'll soon see, won't we.

    If Cingular starts distributing content that is QT compatible or lets users purchase iTunes Store content through the iPhone, then I will be right.

    If not then you would be correct in your prognostication that I would have a "poor reasoning ability".
    03-25-2007 01:31 PM
  7. surur's Avatar
    If Cingular starts distributing content that is QT compatible or lets users purchase iTunes Store content through the iPhone, then I will be right.
    How does that figure? You just said Apple crippled the phone for OTA downloads. Are you saying QT and other Itunes content wont be hampered in the same way by bandwidth issues? Maybe you want to expand on your argument, so I can see exactly where your logic error is.

    Surur
    03-25-2007 02:36 PM
  8. Certs's Avatar
    Cingular has already released 3g phones INCAPABLE of Cing. video. Treo and 8525 to be exact. Nice theory though, but Cingular obviously has no problem doing it....

    Apple could easily make its own program to link to Itunes on the iPhone to purchase/watch videos on the device. I really think the iPhone isn't 3G capable right now because of battery and stability issues. 3G isn't fully reliable IMO (and I live in a city where 3g is supposedly "EVERYWHERE") and fluctuates too much between 3G/EDGE/GPRS, killing battery life. Until this issue geyts resolved Apple can't afford that risk with their intro phone...
    03-26-2007 04:18 PM
  9. archie's Avatar
    Cingular has already released 3g phones INCAPABLE of Cing. video. Treo and 8525 to be exact. Nice theory though, but Cingular obviously has no problem doing it....
    That's right and as you have touched on, it was Cingular in control of releasing these phones. What you have forgotten is that Apple is in control of the iPhone and on top of that you have also forgotten that Apple would not damage their own services by support a competitors.

    Apple could easily make its own program to link to Itunes on the iPhone to purchase/watch videos on the device. I really think the iPhone isn't 3G capable right now because of battery and stability issues. 3G isn't fully reliable IMO (and I live in a city where 3g is supposedly "EVERYWHERE") and fluctuates too much between 3G/EDGE/GPRS, killing battery life. Until this issue geyts resolved Apple can't afford that risk with their intro phone...
    That's right! 3G only has about a 15-20% coverage right now with marginal reliability. You seem to have forgotten that I mention this lack of availability in my post. That is why they are initially offering the iPhone with 2.5G service (EDGE). That is why they can use it as a leveraging point.

    Whay can't readers connect these dots that are so close together. I place these dots right next to each other and you people still get lost.
    03-27-2007 12:17 PM
  10. archie's Avatar
    How does that figure? You just said Apple crippled the phone for OTA downloads. Are you saying QT and other Itunes content wont be hampered in the same way by bandwidth issues?
    Why don't you read it to find out. It's in there.

    Maybe you want to expand on your argument, so I can see exactly where your logic error is.

    Surur
    That's a rather arrogant and audacious statement.
    03-27-2007 12:20 PM
  11. Certs's Avatar
    That's right and as you have touched on, it was Cingular in control of releasing these phones. What you have forgotten is that Apple is in control of the iPhone and on top of that you have also forgotten that Apple would not damage their own services by support a competitors.
    Right, but you said that this may be a reason not to throw 3G in the phone. All I said was that is not true, because 3G does not necessarily = Cingular Video.

    That's right! 3G only has about a 15-20% coverage right now with marginal reliability. You seem to have forgotten that I mention this lack of availability in my post. That is why they are initially offering the iPhone with 2.5G service (EDGE). That is why they can use it as a leveraging point.

    Whay can't readers connect these dots that are so close together. I place these dots right next to each other and you people still get lost.
    I just connected the "dots," not sure why you are still trying to prove something here. I merely stated what I THINK is the reason why the iPhone doesn't have 3G right now. Coverage area aside, even the places that DO have coverage have spotty coverage at best... (yes, I do agree with you. It is possible)
    03-27-2007 02:21 PM
  12. Malatesta's Avatar
    That's right! 3G only has about a 15-20% coverage right now with marginal reliability. You seem to have forgotten that I mention this lack of availability in my post. That is why they are initially offering the iPhone with 2.5G service (EDGE). That is why they can use it as a leveraging point.

    Whay can't readers connect these dots that are so close together. I place these dots right next to each other and you people still get lost.
    Then why not make the device 2.5g upgradeable to 3g via software patch/unlocking?

    That's what the Palm/Service providers did with the Treo 750 which had HSDPA not-enabled on the device until the network providers were "ready".

    That seems like a middle ground you are leaving out.

    That avoids the problems you mentioned while protecting your customers from having out-dated devices in 6-12 months, no? Sort of like the Apple/802.11n issue?
    03-27-2007 03:02 PM
  13. surur's Avatar
    Why don't you read it to find out. It's in there.

    That's a rather arrogant and audacious statement.
    Archie, maybe you want others to connect the dots because you cant draw the lines yourself?

    Surur
    03-27-2007 04:42 PM
  14. archie's Avatar
    Then why not make the device 2.5g upgradeable to 3g via software patch/unlocking?

    That's what the Palm/Service providers did with the Treo 750 which had HSDPA not-enabled on the device until the network providers were "ready".

    That seems like a middle ground you are leaving out.
    I didn't leave it out. Check this post from JUST before the iPhone's introduction.

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...78#post1140978

    Towards the bottom I say, "Apple will be able to cater to the multiple phone markets because it will be able to work on most any network (like GPRS, GSM, Sprint PCS, Wi-Fi or even WiMax) utilizing Intel's software-defined radio for adaptability... and to also cut costs."

    Added note: I do have to say though that I wasn't 100% sure this was incorporated but it is now looking like this is the case.
    05-12-2007 01:16 PM
  15. archie's Avatar
    Archie, maybe you want others to connect the dots because you cant draw the lines yourself?

    Surur
    Here's a dot you were probably wishing wouldn't show up.

    MarketingWeek reports that:

    Despite reports that Vodafone would be the iPhone carrier, sources are saying T-Mobile is favored to secure the deal. Both carriers have been active in the music area, but apparently Vodafone's Live! portal would not be a good match with Apple's iTunes software.



    I must really bug you.
    05-12-2007 01:20 PM
  16. imageone's Avatar

    I must really bug you.
    I don't think your bugging them. :shake: I think they just have a little iPhone envy.
    05-13-2007 02:57 PM
  17. surur's Avatar
    Here's a dot you were probably wishing wouldn't show up.

    MarketingWeek reports that:

    Despite reports that Vodafone would be the iPhone carrier, sources are saying T-Mobile is favored to secure the deal. Both carriers have been active in the music area, but apparently Vodafone's Live! portal would not be a good match with Apple's iTunes software.
    As usual Archie you are not making sense. Sad really. How is the fact that the IPhone is going to one of the smaller carriers a good thing for the IPhone and Apple?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...work_operators

    I see you left out an important part of the quote.

    He also points out that T-Mobile has little or no presence in Italy, Spain or France.
    http://www.marketingweek.co.uk/item/56215/258/262/3

    If Vodafone did not agree to conform to Apple's ridiculous demands like AT&T did I guess it means the more powerful carriers dont think the IPhone is great enough to bend over and take it. Didn't Verizon (who have a relation with Vodafone) similarly refuse to play ball with Apple?

    Anyway, Archie, I still wait for you to explain your (flawed) reasoning.

    I must really bug you.
    Actually Archie, I find your posts extremely amusing. Keep it up!

    Surur
    05-13-2007 04:24 PM
  18. archie's Avatar
    I left it out because it makes NO difference to my point, but I didn't really expect anything else from you except this ridiculous rebutal.

    By the way, it's quite ironic you turned your attention to Italy, Spain and France because this is where I will have my full attention drawn to (plus Germany) for the next 3 weeks. So you can spin and spew and downplay the iPhone all you want.
    05-14-2007 01:47 AM
  19. surur's Avatar
    I left it out because it makes NO difference to my point, but I didn't really expect anything else from you except this ridiculous rebutal.
    Archie, as usual, I dont even know what you point is. You could really do with some lessons in writing persuasively.

    By the way, it's quite ironic you turned your attention to Italy, Spain and France because this is where I will have my full attention drawn to (plus Germany) for the next 3 weeks. So you can spin and spew and downplay the iPhone all you want.
    And maybe they can teach you what irony actually means too. Anyway, thanks again for hiding information from us for our own good.

    Surur
    05-14-2007 02:17 AM
  20. marcol's Avatar
    As a potential buyer of the iPhone in the UK I think T-Mobile would be a great choice, mostly because of their super-cheap data pricing (although Orange now have great packages too and even Vodafone have moved in the right direction of late). I've also been pretty impressed with the rate they've managed to play catch-up in rolling out their 3G network and with the general network reliability (better than Vodafone in my experience) and customer service doesn't seem to shabby either (they were very nice about about my wanting to swap the first phone I chose for a different model, even to the extent of sending me the new one before I'd sent the old one back).

    As a (completely non-expert) observer of the market though, T-Mobile seems like a curious choice, at least to the extent that the rumours that Apple wanted a single carrier for Europe are true. T-Mobile are big in Germany (#1) and the UK (#2) and number of smaller countries but (according to Wikipedia) have nothing in France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Turkey, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland and many others:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-mobile

    Vodafone are the closest to having a pan-European presence:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vodafon...fone_in_Europe

    It's worth noting though that although (however you look at it) Vodafone are more widespread than T-Mobile, a lot of that presence isn't a consequence actually owning networks (see column 3 in the Vodafone Wikipedia page). In terms of owning networks, there simply isn't a pan-European carrier.

    There are several questions I don't know the answer to that are relevant:

    1) Is Apple really after a single carrier in Europe?

    2) What's the relationship between Vodafone and the many carriers listed on Wikipedia in which it has no stake. Would they/could they be part of any deal between Apple and Vodafone?

    3) If Apple goes with T-Mobile, what happens in the European countries with no T-Mobile? Deals with other carriers? Sold unlocked? Not sold at all?
    05-14-2007 05:22 AM
  21. surur's Avatar
    As a (completely non-expert) observer of the market though, T-Mobile seems like a curious choice, at least to the extent that the rumours that Apple wanted a single carrier for Europe are true. T-Mobile are big in Germany (#1) and the UK (#2) and number of smaller countries but (according to Wikipedia) have nothing in France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Turkey, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland and many others:?
    In fact, as you pointed out to me earlier, Italy is one of the biggest smartphone consumer in Europe. Missing out on that market is just stupid.

    By the time the Iphone comes to market here (end of this year?) its going to look like old hat. I can walk into any phone shop today and walk out with the very similar looking LG Prada, and Apple will look like just another copycat, and there is already talk of an LG Prada II with Digital TV built-in.

    The fact is that the music phone market has been growing strongly even before the Iphone (just look at the successful SE Walkman phone series) and the other phone companies will not just cede that market without a fight. In Europe they will have a further 3-6 months head start, and are releasing devices with address the feature set of the Iphone right now.

    Judging the market from the American perspective (with its paucity of advanced phones) will give a very wrong impression of the potential market share of this device.

    Surur
    05-14-2007 06:43 AM
  22. marcol's Avatar
    In fact, as you pointed out to me earlier, Italy is one of the biggest smartphone consumer in Europe. Missing out on that market is just stupid.
    I'd agree that missing out on that market, and many other European markets, *would be* stupid, or at least rather strange. You write as if that's a done deal though, a conclusion which, AFAIK, has very little to support it. We don't know for sure that it will be T-Mobile and we don't know that it will be a single European carrier, and even if both of those turn out to be true, we don't know that Apple wouldn't offer the phone unlocked, direct to the consumer in some markets.
    05-14-2007 07:35 AM
  23. surur's Avatar
    I'd agree that missing out on that market, and many other European markets, *would be* stupid, or at least rather strange. You write as if that's a done deal though, a conclusion which, AFAIK, has very little to support it. We don't know for sure that it will be T-Mobile and we don't know that it will be a single European carrier, and even if both of those turn out to be true, we don't know that Apple wouldn't offer the phone unlocked, direct to the consumer in some markets.
    Wasn't me who produced the article, for whatever nebulous reason. Hopefully missing out on that market is so stupid even Apple wont do it, but we cant be sure...

    Surur
    05-14-2007 07:40 AM
  24. marcol's Avatar
    Wasn't me who produced the article
    My point, as you well know, was that speculation and unconfirmed rumour isn't fact. Treating it as such really doesn't help the debate.
    05-14-2007 07:54 AM
  25. marcol's Avatar
    Judging the market from the American perspective (with its paucity of advanced phones) will give a very wrong impression of the potential market share of this device.
    The European and American markets are pretty different of course (just look at how badly Nokia does, comparatively, in the US), but a recent survey of European mobile phone users from Canalys has some pretty interesting stuff:

    iPod owners receptive to Apple as mobile phone provider

    Respondents were asked to rate how likely they would be to choose different vendor brands for their next personal mobile phone. Unsurprisingly, Nokia came out as the clear leader, with almost half the respondents giving the vendor the highest rating and 84% saying they were more likely than not to consider it. Nokia was some way ahead of Sony Ericsson, which was followed closely by Samsung and then Motorola. Consumers’ ratings of Apple gave it a mid-table position, behind LG, but marginally ahead of well-known smart mobile device vendors like RIM, HP and Palm. Given that the iPhone has not even shipped yet this gives an indication of how well its brand could play in the consumer mobile phone space, but it will still need to overcome the technical and channel-related challenges entry into this market brings.

    “Apple’s rating improves dramatically when you talk to existing iPod owners,” said Pete Cunningham, senior analyst at Canalys. “Almost half the respondents who owned an iPod rated Apple as more likely than not be considered for their next phone, compared to just 20% for those who didn’t have an iPod, and they were five times as likely to give Apple the highest rating. There is a lot of loyalty there that Apple can tap into.”

    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2007/r2007053.htm

    Quite impressive when you consider not only has the iPhone not shipped (anywhere) yet, in Europe, AFAIK, it hasn't even been advertised.
    05-16-2007 08:22 AM
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