1. kmrivers's Avatar
    The iPod and Zune(YUCK) models only work because people are turning into DRM sheeps. Cowon and Archos are actually the real way to go if you want real freedom over your own music and video. Oh yeah, and Creative sounds better than the iPod. Their drawback, they support too much crappy DRM WMA, and not enough independent formats except for MP3.

    I'm not anti-Apple. But just because all aren't 100% enthused with a product may not mean they're anti-anything, just a skeptical consumer.
    I like iPods. I like the iTunes integration. Plus I use a Mac, most players aren't compatible.

    I rip my own MP3's. I won't buy iTunes music until it is lossless. Paying the same price for a way inferior version of the song, i'll pass. Same with the movies. Same with movies, give me some 720P.

    Even then, I doubt I will ever buy into DRM. Haven't yet and don't plan to. Again for it is about the integration. Which is part of the reason I like iPods.

    Honestly I don't understand how they have managed to sell 2 Billion songs on iTunes. I don't think people realize what DRM is. In that way, I am sure the music companies are loving Apple. They fed people the DRM in an intergrated way where people don't even realize they are doing it.

    I agree, the players that play all the codecs are the best way to do it. But again, I like to rip my own video as well that way I control the quality. Not DL junk from the net.

    I buy the hardware but I dont buy into the DRM. And honestly if they were to offer up identical quality files for the media I could buy. I would get down with DRM.

    Unfortunetly it is a necessary evil. People steal. What is sad is that content stealing is such a common place, I wonder if we will ever stop...
    01-16-2007 07:36 PM
  2. oalvarez's Avatar
    do you know why they have managed to sell 2 billion songs on iTunes? because it is easy, relatively inexpensive, and packaged neatly. remember, many consumers like to be spoon fed even if it comes at a slightly higher cost than the less costly alternative.

    iTunes is easy to use and it looks good. many people like that and why many people will like the iPhone. my .02
    01-16-2007 07:49 PM
  3. kamizuno's Avatar
    I've been reading all these iPhone threads with interest since I'm a MacHead and Apple investor, and the one thing I find interesting is the view that the iPhone keyboard sucks. And the reason I find this interesting is because everytime I show off my Treo, the first comment is that the keyboard seems too small, and that when you press a key you wind up pressing 2-3 keys simultaneously. People aren't convince that you can type on a Treo until they actually try it, then they go "OOH, the keyboard actually works, how do they do that?!" So personally, I plan on reserving judgement on the Iphone keyboarding until I actually try it. Because saying it sucks without trying it first is basically saying that Apple engineers and Jobs are idiots who are willing to release a product that has a unusable keyboard, and considering my Apple stock is worth 7X what I paid for, I know Jobs isn't stupid
    01-16-2007 07:52 PM
  4. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    iTunes is fine IMO. Now that they allow drag and drop for the iPod. Plus they finally realized that VBR MP3 is a good thing.

    DRM however is unnecessary. People don't steal, they trade. The music companies just don't like that you can rip MP3s for your friends. This is the one thing the Zune got right(people trading MP3s), BUT then they went and added DRM, which destroyed the whole concept!
    01-16-2007 07:59 PM
  5. kmrivers's Avatar
    Nice post kamizuno.

    I get that too with my Treo. I can type pretty quick on it and people are like "whoa."

    The view that it will suck comes from the lack of tactile feedback and no look/one hand operation.

    I am confident it possible to use it with one hand and without tactile feedback. No look, no. Even my Treo now. I have to look at it. I won't even try to type with one hand.

    If you open your mind and get over the idea that you need to feel something to use it, I think the keyboard would be very usable. You would learn the positions relative to the sides and to the bottom of the screen you are typing in. You will also learn the spacing.

    It just might take work. Will it be better? I don't know. For me it will probably be equal. It does give us a larger screen by removing the keyboard though. Which gives us more space for the content. The email, the video, the webpages, the pictures, the apps, etc etc.
    01-16-2007 07:59 PM
  6. archie's Avatar
    I can't believe that people still fail to grasp the engineering feat that Apple has accomplished here in regards to power management and engineering.

    Let's consider the iPhone's size. The iPhone is literally half the size of a Treo (11mm thickness compared to 23mm thickness). Even smaller when compared to the older models.

    Now, what would you imagine the overall space would be that the battery occupies in the new iPhone. Considering the entire size of the phone and the components involved:

    8GB of RAM
    A huge 320 by 480 multi-touch screen
    Quad-band (MHz: 850, 900, 1800, 1900) radio
    Wi-fi
    Bluetooth
    Camera
    Antenna
    Speakerphone
    Headphone jack
    iPod interconnect
    SIM card
    Main processor
    DSP processor
    Multitude of circuit boards

    What kind of room can they possibly have left for a phone. Based on the size of the iPhone, a person would have to imagine that half of it would be dedicated solely to the battery to get 5 hours from it.

    Yet, this is impossible. Look at the list of stuff they have shoved in there (in addition to the bits of electronics I know nothing of that are required for such a device).

    My point is that the battery is quite small and to engineer the ability to allow the user to swap batteries in and out would impact the resulting size to a much greater degree than if for example Palm were to make this same change given the Treos existing size.

    Do you get it? The iPhone's battery would lose a greater overall percentage of its mass to engineer an iPhone design that would allow for a swappable battery because the space to hold the battery is so small to begin with. The iPhone would end up with 2-3 hours of battery life.

    I am glad Apple chose to engineer a built in (non-swapable) battery.

    Besides; the whole idea of making these "smartphones" like a Treo or a Blackberry or the iPhone is to give the advantage of convergence. I will be able to just grab my iPhone and go - not worrying about also unplugging that extra battery pack and carrying that around with me too.
    01-16-2007 08:15 PM
  7. archie's Avatar
    [COLOR="Navy"]iTunes is fine IMO. Now that they allow drag and drop for the iPod. Plus they finally realized that VBR MP3 is a good thing.
    They have had this capability since the very first iPod. It has always been there.
    01-16-2007 08:17 PM
  8. archie's Avatar
    I've been reading all these iPhone threads with interest since I'm a MacHead and Apple investor, and the one thing I find interesting is the view that the iPhone keyboard sucks. And the reason I find this interesting is because everytime I show off my Treo, the first comment is that the keyboard seems too small, and that when you press a key you wind up pressing 2-3 keys simultaneously. People aren't convince that you can type on a Treo until they actually try it, then they go "OOH, the keyboard actually works, how do they do that?!" So personally, I plan on reserving judgement on the Iphone keyboarding until I actually try it. Because saying it sucks without trying it first is basically saying that Apple engineers and Jobs are idiots who are willing to release a product that has a unusable keyboard, and considering my Apple stock is worth 7X what I paid for, I know Jobs isn't stupid
    Exactly.

    And I would like to go on record here in saying that it is the Treo's tactile feedback that will prove to be a downfall in the end when comapred to Apple's iPhone.

    How can that possibly be you ask?

    Well, your finger actually slows as it progresses through the pressing of keys that provide this tactile feedback. Sure you may get a somewhat satisfying clicking of sorts; but compare that to tapping without any need to fully depress a key.

    Try it! Try it right now with your Treo. Type on it's keyboard, then try tapping on this.




    Which is faster?
    01-16-2007 08:33 PM
  9. kmrivers's Avatar
    Also, the keyboard provides visual feedback as well. And the error correcting will help I am sure. It wouldnt be much different from the stuff they use in the Pearl so auto complete.

    If I type "shir" and hit y and t at the same time, chances are it will ignore the y and use the t. That is how it was described. So we will see how it works when it arrives. It also has auto complete like phones have had since the beginning due to the 3 letters per number texting crap. I imagine this will be much more intuitive as well.

    All in all. The keyboard doesnt worry me one bit. 3G will keep me waiting. I am sure when I can buy in March 08, the iPhone will be a bad mother. Can't wait. Just hope I can resist when it comes out... :evil:

    EDIT: Man that thing is so sexy... I can't wait to see that display in person.
    01-16-2007 08:44 PM
  10. bruckwine's Avatar
    If you are that busy that you can't take 30 minutes to get the battery replaced (which you would have a while to do as chances are the battery won't just quit, you should re-evaluate your life a bit.

    The phone isn't just doing to die. If you charge it, I am sure it will make it 2hrs to the store. I mean really. Come on.

    Besides, 30pin iPod connector equals in car charger. Boo hoo you have to be tied to something. Big whoop. When you arent talking it can be charging no?

    Apple has a good number of stores as well: http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/

    If you are in Africa, yeah you might be out of luck

    Besides, if you know the battery is wearing down get it replaced before you go.

    I dont carry batteries around. And I don't care really. If you need this, the device isnt for you. Complaining about it not having something isnt going to help the situation. Should of, could of, would of. You know?

    Besides, just as with the iPods you can do it yourself. And it isn't even that hard. In time there will be batteries and there will be a special tool as well.

    These guys are already on it: http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.com/#iphone
    http://forums.imore.com/e?link=http%...token=SLigI7rj
    Are you getting personal?! Perhaps you need to evaluate your life if you start insulting ppl over thir valid opinions...I made a valid point.

    Not everyone has the time to "go down the road" to replace a phone battery when they have more important things to do like work, groceries, pick up the kids etc etc OR want to have a gazillion chargers....being able to order a battery online (5 mins top) and have it at your door in 3 days ready at hand seems much less of a hassle to me! Basically extends your product life by two and cut the hassle of lining up in a store...save that time for more serious phone problems like a touchscreen that doesn't work or a bad microphone.

    And if the phone is made for the average consumer who doesn't have to be high tech fixing it should fall into that comfy Apple lifestyle - I guarantee it's easier to replace a removable battery than

    a. doing it yourself (I've changed my iPod battery and despite what ppl say it's hard and you're liable to scratch your device, break your plastic tools etc if you're not careful)

    b. paying $100 and waiting 1-3 weeks for apple to do it (given that's a big chunk of what the iPod/iphone cost the first place) esp if there is no store where you live/work.

    I state again - they would have made the phone much more attractive if they'd used a removable/user-replaceable battery
    01-16-2007 08:48 PM
  11. oalvarez's Avatar
    the size of the keys shown in the picture above make me feel a whole lot more positive about the device and its potential.

    i haven't done a ton of research on it but if it can't synch with our firm's outlook server (at the least) or as an alternative allow for Goodlink then it won't suffice as a business tool for me. it will easily and certainly suffice as a secondary device, for me.

    i like the keyboard that is shown.
    01-16-2007 08:49 PM
  12. kmrivers's Avatar
    http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=...ostream&size=l

    http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=...ostream&size=l
    http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=...ostream&size=l

    Hey is the ring silent button a motion sensing button. It looks like it might be. Kinda like on the Apple Displays
    01-16-2007 08:50 PM
  13. oalvarez's Avatar
    why is there so much concern over "replacing" a battery? why would the user need to replace the battery? don't batteries last for years? the ones in all of the devices i have ever owned have worked flawlessly in terms of providing a charge over time. i will say this: motorola star-tacs that i owned moons ago did actually need a new battery after some time.

    don't misinterpret: i am speaking about the need to "replace" versus the need to "remove."
    01-16-2007 08:54 PM
  14. kamizuno's Avatar
    Geez those pictures look nice!!!
    01-16-2007 08:56 PM
  15. kmrivers's Avatar
    Are you getting personal?! Perhaps you need to evaluate your life if you start insulting pp. over thir valid opinions...I made a valid point.

    Not everyone has the time to "go down the road" to replace a phone battery when they have more important things to do like work, groceries, pick up the kids etc etc OR want to have a gazillion chargers....being able to order a battery online (5 mins top) and have it at your door in 3 days ready at hand seems much less of a hassle to me! Basically extends your product life by two and cut the hassle of lining up in a store...save that time for more serious phone problems like a touchscreen that doesn't work or a bad microphone.

    And if the phone is made for the average consumer who doesn't have to be high tech fixing it should fall into that comfy Apple lifestyle - I guarantee it's easier to replace a removable battery than

    a. doing it yourself (I've changed my iPod battery and despite what ppl say it's hard and you're liable to scratch your device, break your plastic tools etc if you're not careful)

    b. paying $100 and waiting 1-3 weeks for apple to do it (given that's a big chunk of what the iPod/iphone cost the first place) esp if there is no store where you live/work.

    I state again - they would have made the phone much more attractive if they'd used a removable/user-replaceable battery
    In no way am I trying to get personal. I just think it is a shame if you can't find 30 minutes to replace a battery at the store.

    Maybe it would be more attractive. But how long do you keep your devices? I will have my iPhone maybe 2 years before I upgrade to a new one. My iPods have done just fine for two years. My Treo is kicking along at one year.

    Battery life for me isn't an issue. If someone can't reach me for an hour. Oh well. But if I am at school, home, work I can plug it into a USB port and let it charge.

    I am not saying it isn't an issue. But look at it from my perspective here. I am going to guess most people are like me, as 70% (thats a low estimate) don't carry extra batteries around with them. Even their charger is limited as you need an outlet. The iPhone can do it over USB, and there are also power adapters that take the USB so you can plug it into the wall. One charging system that is flexible. No billion chargers.

    This isn't a big inconvienence. Most people aren't carrying multiple batteries around even though they can. That speaks volumes to your claim that it should be there.

    To each their own. People are buying iPods without much complaint....
    01-16-2007 08:59 PM
  16. archie's Avatar
    I state again - they would have made the phone much more attractive if they'd used a removable/user-replaceable battery
    And in case you didn't read my post above, I wil state again... that if Apple did this, you would need to carry around a spare battery just to have the same number of hours in battery life because the space required for such a feat would negate its benefits (ie: cut the batteries physical size in half).
    01-16-2007 08:59 PM
  17. kmrivers's Avatar
    why is there so much concern over "replacing" a battery? why would the user need to replace the battery? don't batteries last for years? the ones in all of the devices i have ever owned have worked flawlessly in terms of providing a charge over time. i will say this: motorola star-tacs that i owned moons ago did actually need a new battery after some time.

    don't misinterpret: i am speaking about the need to "replace" versus the need to "remove."
    I agree. Replacing isn't an issue in most cases. After years, yes I can see it. Which is natural. You pay the $65.95 (ipod price) and get it replaced.

    I also love how much the price of replacing inflated, please quote the actual price. It only makes you sound like you are rabbidily trying to knock it when you use inaccurate numbers. It most assuredly doesn't cost $100. It is $65.95.

    http://www.apple.com/support/ipod/service/battery/

    Also, it is covered for the first year. Apple may offer AppleCare for it as well. Which means you could have it replaced before the warranty is up, either at a year or two years.
    01-16-2007 09:05 PM
  18. Malatesta's Avatar
    why is there so much concern over "replacing" a battery? why would the user need to replace the battery? don't batteries last for years? the ones in all of the devices i have ever owned have worked flawlessly in terms of providing a charge over time. i will say this: motorola star-tacs that i owned moons ago did actually need a new battery after some time.

    don't misinterpret: i am speaking about the need to "replace" versus the need to "remove."
    The iPod batteries do need to be replaced after "X" time. Fact is LiON batteries degrade the moment after they are made and they could loose on average about 20% per year, hence why they need to be replaced.

    I have friends who are "heavy" iPod users (3-4 hours a day?) and I've seen their batteries loose capacity after a year to 16 months. Heat of the battery (the higher, the worse) is also a factor. Fully discharging can also damage their lifespan.

    Now a "5 hour" battery after 1 year of usage will be significantly less than 5 hours (and that is being generous, assuming everyone gets 5 hours, which I doubt just due to low signal, etc.). Plus, this is a media phone, not just a cell phone meaning it'll be used much more often for music, video, internet, etc, so direct comparisons to a "normal" cell phone can not be made.

    Plus the biggy: this is a phone and will most likely be left "on" 24/7 so they will certainly draw more power and have to be recharged more often than an iPod.

    This is why people are concerned. Maybe it won't matter, maybe it will. Past experience tells us it might be an issue for some.
    01-16-2007 09:10 PM
  19. oalvarez's Avatar
    some will beat on this device til the end, just like i have beat on MY OWN treos that i have owned over time. yes, i own them and still have less than great things to say about them as i think they're lacking when it comes to today's technology and design. that's why i think the iPhone is such a breath of fresh air given what has been announced. it might have its mis-givings (although it has not been finalized nor released into the marketplace) but it sure seems like a step in the right direction given Palm's reluctance to get with the times.

    this thread was about what?
    01-16-2007 09:11 PM
  20. bruckwine's Avatar
    And in case you didn't read my post above, I wil state again... that if Apple did this, you would need to carry around a spare battery just to have the same number of hours in battery life because the space required for such a feat would negate its benefits (ie: cut the batteries physical size in half).
    well that's what innovation is about... you're assuming you KNOW why they made the battery non-removable i.e. it would cut the size and thus the charge drastically...i don't have the data to say either or, and I'd think no one outside of Apple Inc does either atm.

    What I know is that it would be better for the average person to have their phone available at all times w/o having to leave it for a unnecessary battery replacement - something they could do themselves depending ont eh type of battery.

    I also doubt that making the battery removable will halve its size..are you saying this from professional experience? Because that sounds rather drastic to me. The treo 680 is the around the same size as the iPhone (give or take a few mms in depth) and only ~ 0.5 ounces heavier with a replaceable battery...I'm sure plenty ppl wouldn't care if the iPhone was a few mm deeper if they coud save $50-80 US in battery replacement fees....

    PS yep the replacement fees I stated b4 are a guess as I've heard it was as high as $80..don't know myself as I live outside the US and had to do it myself...wasn't easy and I'd rather rnot have to do that with my phone! $65 you say? In store maybe but I think shipping costs are ommited no?
    01-16-2007 09:14 PM
  21. Malatesta's Avatar
    this thread was about what?
    Top Five Reasons Why the iPhone Sucks

    I think any "beating on this device" is actually warranted in *this* thread.
    01-16-2007 09:16 PM
  22. oalvarez's Avatar
    The iPod batteries do need to be replaced after "X" time. Fact is LiON batteries degrade the moment after they are made and they could loose on average about 20% per year, hence why they need to be replaced.

    I have friends who are "heavy" iPod users (3-4 hours a day?) and I've seen their batteries loose capacity after a year to 16 months. Heat of the battery (the higher, the worse) is also a factor. Fully discharging can also damage their lifespan.

    Now a "5 hour" battery after 1 year of usage will be significantly less than 5 hours (and that is being generous, assuming everyone gets 5 hours, which I doubt just due to low signal, etc.).

    Plus the biggy: this is a phone and will most likely be left "on" 24/7 so they will certainly draw more power and have to be recharged more often than an iPod.

    This is why people are concerned. Maybe it won't matter, maybe it will. Past experience tells us it might be an issue for some.

    i haven't had to replace any of my batteries on any of my more current pda devices, maybe you and everyone else has. all of my devices are also left on 24/7 and i believe them to be/have been powered by lithium ion batteries, so i'm not concerned like you? or like so many others.

    can't wait to give the iPhone a try.
    01-16-2007 09:18 PM
  23. bruckwine's Avatar
    And actually isn't this thread about why the iPhone SUCKS? At least that was the first post....perhaps we are arguing in the wrong thread and need to stat one on the pluses and minuses of non-removable batteries in the iPhone?
    01-16-2007 09:19 PM
  24. Malatesta's Avatar
    i haven't had to replace any of my batteries on any of my more current pda devices, maybe you and everyone else has. all of my devices are also left on 24/7 and i believe them to be/have been powered by lithium ion batteries. so i'm not concerned like you? or so many others.

    can't wait to give the iPhone a try.
    I usually by new batteries for my Treos/etc at least every 12-16 months.

    That number is going down simply because I buy a whole new device in 12-16 months (alas, most people don't and won't with a $600 phone). My Sanyo 8100 stock and extended battery both lost their capacity and my friends Motorola just did the same (he had no idea why he had to keep constantly charge it).

    Plus it does happen with iPods which is why there is the current "warranty" program in place now since the early gen products had lots of issues.

    Like I said it may or may not be an issue but Apple didn't reinvent the battery and the same physics applies. Only time will tell.
    01-16-2007 09:22 PM
  25. archie's Avatar
    This is why people are concerned. Maybe it won't matter, maybe it will. Past experience tells us it might be an issue for some.
    I have had my iPod for a couple of years. Not one losing any of its advertised battery use yet.

    Of course it has a hard drive so I don't leave it in the glove compartment or in the center console like I suspect your friends did. I say this knowing that the sweltering heat in a car can effect the battery (the battery of anything, including a Treo) just like the hard drive.

    By the way, I think its funny that you have to insinuate that Apple's products lose 20% of their battery life each year. This is a ridiculous claim and one that goes against Apple's pensiveness for quality control.
    01-16-2007 09:22 PM
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