1. vinman's Avatar
    The point is that more than 2mp is only an improvement on paper. Even a 2mp points out the limitations of the lens used. Unless SE is selling their camera/phones with Zeiss or comparable glass lenses, then it's really only marketing hype. Just because you CAN put a 5mp imager in a phone doesn't mean you SHOULD. You can put a big block motor in a station wagon, but what good is it?
    01-16-2007 01:58 PM
  2. Certs's Avatar
    The point is that more than 2mp is only an improvement on paper. Even a 2mp points out the limitations of the lens used. Unless SE is selling their camera/phones with Zeiss or comparable glass lenses, then it's really only marketing hype. Just because you CAN put a 5mp imager in a phone doesn't mean you SHOULD. You can put a big block motor in a station wagon, but what good is it?
    Well, I agree about the 5MP part, but I would really like to see 3-4MP camreas in my phones. I just want a decent enough resolution where if I wanted to print a 4x6 photo I could. 2MP doesn't look good at all, 3MP is more than acceptable. I understand it still won't look as good as a Canon DSC, but at least the option would be there.
    01-16-2007 02:19 PM
  3. CGK#IM's Avatar
    yes you can install 3rd party apps on the symbian devices - shame there are virtually none worth writing home about... (said the very happy e61 user)
    01-16-2007 02:29 PM
  4. surur's Avatar
    Can someone PLEASE tell me why a phone needs more than 2mp? Seriously, that is the definition of hype. Putting a high res image sensor behind a crappy (or even just average) plastic lens only a few mm wide is nearly equivalent in logic to putting a screen door on a submarine.
    Maybe thats why you need glass Carl Zeiss optics?
    http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B...25711500407BC3

    Surur
    01-16-2007 02:43 PM
  5. vinman's Avatar
    Maybe thats why you need glass Carl Zeiss optics?
    http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B58B...25711500407BC3

    Surur
    As per my statement above (regarding Zeiss optics specifically), that makes a lot more sense with a high res image sensor. You are still VERY limited with the aperture, ISO speed equivalent, software settings, etc - but at least the glass (the MOST important element aside from the photographer) is there on those specific devices.

    I would submit, though, that siting a 2mp camera on a "phone" as a reason to hate it is ridiculous in it's lack of logic. Being disappointed in the apparent lack of 3G support? Now that is the only realistic complaint I can come up with for a device that isn't available to the public yet. I'm saving my opinions on this device for a time when I get to use it for myself and can give an intelligent, qualified opinion.
    01-16-2007 03:07 PM
  6. surur's Avatar
    The point is not that 2 Megapixel is poor, but that there are other, more advanced devices out there, which an advanced user would get much more value out of. The only thing Apple has done which is unique is the touch screen UI, but just because its unique does not mean its great either. In the end this is just another phone, and does not deserve the hype.

    In fact, the more I think of this phone, the more it reminds of of a tool for less capable people, like the phones we have for children and the elderly, with only a few buttons, large screens and large fonts, and very few options.




    Surur
    01-16-2007 03:30 PM
  7. vinman's Avatar
    The point is not that 2 Megapixel is poor, but that there are other, more advanced devices out there, which an advanced user would get much more value out of. The only thing Apple has done which is unique is the touch screen UI, but just because its unique does not mean its great either. In the end this is just another phone, and does not deserve the hype.

    In fact, the more I think of this phone, the more it reminds of of a tool for less capable people, like the phones we have for children and the elderly, with only a few buttons, large screens and large fonts, and very few options.




    Surur
    I'm starting to get the impression you dislike this device!
    And you know what? That's ok. I'm sure you won't buy one, and you'll probably be just fine with that decision. I won't make fun of you if decide to remain a luddite

    It's really funny to see all these concrete opinions being voiced by a group of people who have never actually seen this device in person. The UI appeals to me (from what I've seen) - at least enough that I am anxious to give it a try when it's released. The lack of 3G is the only thing I've seen to date that I consider a serious drawback. Compromise is not dead, though, is it? After all, how many people are still buying new Treo models that don't have WiFi?

    Remember, all of what is being said on this particular iPhone forum is (nearly) purely conjecture and speculation at this point - at least insofar as actually USING the iPhone. I've seen a few of these threads devolve into name calling - now THAT is ridiculous in every sense of the word!
    01-16-2007 03:47 PM
  8. littlewaywelt's Avatar
    I think it does deserve the hype. Is it perfect? No. Maybe not even close for many of you, but what you fail to realize in the perfection of this product lies in that it will bring smartphones into the hands of people that would never be able to use a treo. Now they'll be able to use mobile email, web and media in way that's incredibly intuitive, all via a simple touchscreen ui. This is a truly genius product.

    Can your treo do more? Probably, but Apple doesn't care about the 1% power user that wants to use a slingbox, exchange corp email, have live weather radar, add on lots of power user custom programs, etc. Most people don't need a device that can hold something like weather panel, when all most people care about is, will it be warm or cold and do I need to pack an umbrella.

    The iPhone is the iPod on super steroids. Are there better mp3 players with longer batteries, more powerful screens, etc? Sure, but apple knows how to make a product incredibly easy to use that's elegant, fun, functional and powerful enough for everyone other than the power user.

    Apple knows you don't need > a 2mega pix camera in a phone. To make this thing take good picutres would be impossible if you want to retain the size, weight and cost.
    01-16-2007 04:00 PM
  9. surur's Avatar
    Remember, all of what is being said on this particular iPhone forum is (nearly) purely conjecture and speculation at this point
    I though we knew rather a lot about the IPhone. People seem to ignore what we know and minimize the efforts, saying Apple will do something magical to turn there into actual advantages e.g.

    No voice dialing and no hard keys definitely means a problem in the car. Why is this not a problem?

    No UMTS with a UMTS device promised soon afterward - why buy version 1 then? Yet many (including you) say you will.

    Very poor one-handed usage - no problem?

    It seems like people are very very eager to hand Jobs their money, just to play with the touch screen and flick things around. I'm sure the Nintendo DS will be a much more satisfying purchase, and it has a whole lot more games too.

    Surur
    01-16-2007 04:08 PM
  10. vinman's Avatar
    I though we knew rather a lot about the IPhone. People seem to ignore what we know and minimize the efforts, saying Apple will do something magical to turn there into actual advantages e.g.

    No voice dialing and no hard keys definitely means a problem in the car. Why is this not a problem?

    No UMTS with a UMTS device promised soon afterward - why buy version 1 then? Yet many (including you) say you will.

    Very poor one-handed usage - no problem?

    It seems like people are very very eager to hand Jobs their money, just to play with the touch screen and flick things around. I'm sure the Nintendo DS will be a much more satisfying purchase, and it has a whole lot more games too.

    Surur
    Well, actually I said I would BUY it - not that I would KEEP it. Cingular has a 30 day deal, so if I don't like the iPhone, I can return it. Big detail there. If I like it, I'll keep it - I have to BUY it first, though.

    We are ASSuming at this point that the iPhone will not have some sort of voice dialing feature. That's purely software driven. The device has a microphone (we can SAFELY assume that), so it IS possible that it could have that feature - even likely considering how ubiquitous voice dialing has become.

    I'm not really ASSuming anything else about the iPhone at this juncture.

    Seems simple enough to me - if you don't like this device, stop expending so much of your time and energy trying to convince those who do like it why they shouldn't. It's really sort of asinine. Don't buy one of these if you think it's so inferior.

    If that doesn't seem logical then perhaps you are just engaging in some :stick:
    and that's ok, too, if that's what floats your boat.
    01-16-2007 04:45 PM
  11. marcol's Avatar
    At this rate, it looks like they expect all iPod owners who never complain about no removable battery and willingly send in their iPods to Apple OR buy a new one after 18 months to be their main target group. But what goes for iPods will not go for phones.
    I can see the value of having an extra battery and also being able replace a defective one yourself. Having said that, I've never bought a spare battery for a cell phone and my Treo 600 (currently with my son) is well over three years old and the battery (which can't be replaced by the user) is still just fine.
    01-16-2007 04:52 PM
  12. marcol's Avatar
    In fact, the more I think of this phone, the more it reminds of of a tool for less capable people, like the phones we have for children and the elderly, with only a few buttons, large screens and large fonts, and very few options.
    Not to spoil a perfectly good rant, but do you really think that this LG has a large screen?

    01-16-2007 05:01 PM
  13. kmrivers's Avatar
    At this rate, it looks like they expect all iPod owners who never complain about no removable battery and willingly send in their iPods to Apple OR buy a new one after 18 months to be their main target group. But what goes for iPods will not go for phones.
    You do realize you can walk into an Apple store, apple certified repair shop, and probably even a cingular store and get it replaced.

    You dont have to send it off anywhere. And since they have a replacement program for the iPod. I can only imagine they will have a system for the iPhone that is slighty different.

    For me, it isn't an issue. I dont carry extra batteries around. If it dies. It dies. I understand some people live on their phone and maybe contact business. Right now I don't. So I can't sympathize. But, I almost have never run my battery out completely. It lasts all day. Then I charge it if need be.

    I also don't talk on my phone for 5 hours straight.

    Even when the battery start to lose its charge. It typically isn't an instant thing where it just doesnt work anymore. So you wouldn't be SOL. You would have to be more conservative until you can take it in and have it replaced.

    Its really not hard. And I dont see it as an inconvienence. But that is me of course. But I think this issue is horribly overblown. Especially with the "You have to send it in" comments. You dont have to mail it to Apple. You simply don't. That is of course the only way you guys can convince someone it sucks, excluding the facts that is.
    01-16-2007 05:08 PM
  14. marcol's Avatar
    No voice dialing and no hard keys definitely means a problem in the car. Why is this not a problem?
    Agree re voice dialling but not hard keys. Those big on-screen buttons should be easy to hit. Think TomTom.

    Very poor one-handed usage - no problem?
    It's a problem if it's a problem. Let's try it and see.
    01-16-2007 05:13 PM
  15. kmrivers's Avatar
    The point is not that 2 Megapixel is poor, but that there are other, more advanced devices out there, which an advanced user would get much more value out of. The only thing Apple has done which is unique is the touch screen UI, but just because its unique does not mean its great either. In the end this is just another phone, and does not deserve the hype.

    In fact, the more I think of this phone, the more it reminds of of a tool for less capable people, like the phones we have for children and the elderly, with only a few buttons, large screens and large fonts, and very few options.

    [snip pictures]
    Surur
    First, on the 2MP camera. Megapixels don't make the camera better. More resolution with crappy optics still makes crappy pics. I don't know the optics on the iPhone. But this is more of a general thing.

    Also, I don't use my phone as a camera. I have a nice Sony (with a touchscreen ) to do that. For the rare snapshot I will use the phone. But my phone does not equal digi cam.

    Moving on. There is surely more than the UI. Whether it is great or not is an opinion. The tech is fantastic however and it could be implemented in many devices including the rumored widescreen iPod.

    Also the look of the OS is far ahead of what we have seen. Call it nonsense, or say it doesnt matter it could look like **** as long as it did what you wanted it to. I would move on the side of things that look pleasing and clean make you more productive. If you want to disagree, why is MS doing Photon which you say will look like the iPhone does now? Why not leave it looking like it does? Because more functionality comes with that.

    Why do you hate this device? I have no clue. It is rather sad though, that you can't see the value you here.

    I love technology. I am sure when Photon hits and new features show up in those phones I will be like "oh yeah!" Maybe you should try and get back to those roots man. Just because a company comes out and makes easy to use products that don't have all the power features that YOU want doesn't mean it is crap.

    Much like the OS X criticism on the Mac. "Its for people who don't know anything" is what people say. I say nay. I know more about computers than the average guy(much more) and I use a Mac. Why? Because it increases my productivity 100 fold. Expose(this is big), dashboard, the performance, it is built on *nix so the extensibility is limitless, apple script, automator, system-wide spellcheck. Spaces and Time machine coming with Leopard.

    All those things and more make me more productive, heaps more than XP, and maybe Vista (havent played with it yet) can. This idea that consumer driven products are crap is just that, crap.

    And the prouct looks good. If you want ugly brick products have fun. I like my things to look nice. The progression of devices should align with that idea. People want nice looking things. Cars, phones, computers, shoes, shirts, whatever. Obviously that varies from person to person. You may like what I call ugly brick phones. That is fine. But don't discredit great design because you feel it is uneccessary.

    The iPod. Why do people hate it? It doesnt support all the codecs, DRM blah blah blah. Consumers don't care. People don't care it doesn't play DiVx or Xvid. They buy it on the iTunes store. THat is the model that works. An end to end solution that works. Not, "heres the player figure it out" why do you think Microsoft jumped on that bandwagon instead of doing what Creative and the others do? That model doesn't work.

    Will i buy an iPhone? Yes. Will I feel like a little kid that has a phone with big buttons and its so easy to use? No. I know the quality that went into this product. I could feel the excitement and passion in Steves voice when he announced this thing. You can say "he just wants to sell, blah blah blah," I disagree though. I am sure he loves tech like I do, and just Bill Gates does. That is what it is about.

    I think the iPhone is an amazing device. I think its potential will be amazing. Is it perfect? Of course not. There is always something it won't have. 3G for example, for now at least. I support Apple because I enjoy the products they make. Sure it is easy for those who want to use it and go. But for the rest, the power is there. I hope Apple lets a good number of apps on this device. But honestly, for me. It has what I need. I don't have to install a bunch of junk on it to get it to work better or do what I want like my Treo. (Assuming the iPhone works as stated, which I imagine it will)

    Sorry for the long post. I am just sick of this "it sucks" attitude. Get over your anti-Apple attitude and look at the device and enjoy it. it isn't for you. So what. It still has high points which as a rational person and someone who seemingly loves tech can admit.
    01-16-2007 05:31 PM
  16. oalvarez's Avatar
    Well, actually I said I would BUY it - not that I would KEEP it. Cingular has a 30 day deal, so if I don't like the iPhone, I can return it. Big detail there. If I like it, I'll keep it - I have to BUY it first, though.

    We are ASSuming at this point that the iPhone will not have some sort of voice dialing feature. That's purely software driven. The device has a microphone (we can SAFELY assume that), so it IS possible that it could have that feature - even likely considering how ubiquitous voice dialing has become.

    I'm not really ASSuming anything else about the iPhone at this juncture.

    Seems simple enough to me - if you don't like this device, stop expending so much of your time and energy trying to convince those who do like it why they shouldn't. It's really sort of asinine. Don't buy one of these if you think it's so inferior.

    If that doesn't seem logical then perhaps you are just engaging in some :stick:
    and that's ok, too, if that's what floats your boat.

    i'm going to buy one too because i like taking advantage of the option to return the device if it doesn't work for me.

    i'll also agree on the rest.
    01-16-2007 05:37 PM
  17. oalvarez's Avatar
    the only item that bugs me is that of the virtual keyboard. if it impedes in being able to type on the fly or is any more difficult than typing on a Pearl keyboard (very small buttons but luckily i don't have giant hands) then it will be less appealing to me. it will also need to allow me to view all of my work emails along with subfolders of the inbox. either that or goodlink compatability would suffice although the latter probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.

    still looking forward to its release and none of they hype is bothersome. it's part of the deal, a by-product if you will of any new tech product to market.
    01-16-2007 05:54 PM
  18. surur's Avatar
    We are ASSuming at this point that the iPhone will not have some sort of voice dialing feature. That's purely software driven. The device has a microphone (we can SAFELY assume that), so it IS possible that it could have that feature - even likely considering how ubiquitous voice dialing has become.
    Pogue who has used the device, says no voice dialing. You are ASSuming Jobs will add it in. I work with the facts as they are known.
    http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/...ked-questions/

    You know the camera cant even take videos, dont you?

    Simplicity with power is genius. Simplicity by ripping out all options is pretty easy. I'm not impressed.

    Surur
    01-16-2007 05:59 PM
  19. kmrivers's Avatar
    Pogue who has used the device, says no voice dialing. You are ASSuming Jobs will add it in. I work with the facts as they are known.
    http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/...ked-questions/

    You know the camera cant even take videos, dont you?

    Simplicity with power is genius. Simplicity by ripping out all options is pretty easy. I'm not impressed.

    Surur
    You realize the phone is not done, and surely not released don't you? Complaining about what it does and does not have now is pointless since the phone isn't even out. When you can go buy it, you can complain then.

    Until that point, talking it down is silly.
    01-16-2007 06:05 PM
  20. bruckwine's Avatar
    At this rate, it looks like they expect all iPod owners who never complain about no removable battery and willingly send in their iPods to Apple OR buy a new one after 18 months to be their main target group. But what goes for iPods will not go for phones.

    my biggest qualm overall...one thing to have an iPod sit for days (mine does) but a phone has to last all day all night even - why devices with "poor" batteries like treos BB's etc have removable batteries...

    The point is that more than 2mp is only an improvement on paper. Even a 2mp points out the limitations of the lens used. Unless SE is selling their camera/phones with Zeiss or comparable glass lenses, then it's really only marketing hype. Just because you CAN put a 5mp imager in a phone doesn't mean you SHOULD. You can put a big block motor in a station wagon, but what good is it?
    I think cameras on phones are a non-issue (my opinion) - VGAis good enough for a quick snap/spur of the moment...if I got o a wedding I'll carry my REAL camera or camcorder!

    You do realize you can walk into an Apple store, apple certified repair shop, and probably even a cingular store and get it replaced.

    You dont have to send it off anywhere. And since they have a replacement program for the iPod. I can only imagine they will have a system for the iPhone that is slighty different.

    ...
    Heard this said several times but how convenient is that esp in this modern day when ppl always have something important to do..the fact that the ability to have a spare battery in your pocket/case is removed means that you will still have down time, whether it be the 2 hrs in traffic to reach the store or the two days before you get the time (e.g. weekend)...and it'll be harder when they go int'l witht he phone as apple doesn't have stores on every corner outside the US. I just think if thye made the battery self-serviceabe it would've made such a big big difference...
    01-16-2007 06:12 PM
  21. kmrivers's Avatar

    Heard this said several times but how convenient is that esp in this modern day when ppl always have something important to do..the fact that the ability to have a spare battery in your pocket/case is removed means that you will still have down time, whether it be the 2 hrs in traffic to reach the store or the two days before you get the time (e.g. weekend)...and it'll be harder when they go int'l witht he phone as apple doesn't have stores on every corner outside the US. I just think if thye made the battery self-serviceabe it would've made such a big big difference...
    If you are that busy that you can't take 30 minutes to get the battery replaced (which you would have a while to do as chances are the battery won't just quit, you should re-evaluate your life a bit.

    The phone isn't just doing to die. If you charge it, I am sure it will make it 2hrs to the store. I mean really. Come on.

    Besides, 30pin iPod connector equals in car charger. Boo hoo you have to be tied to something. Big whoop. When you arent talking it can be charging no?

    Apple has a good number of stores as well: http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/

    If you are in Africa, yeah you might be out of luck

    Besides, if you know the battery is wearing down get it replaced before you go.

    I dont carry batteries around. And I don't care really. If you need this, the device isnt for you. Complaining about it not having something isnt going to help the situation. Should of, could of, would of. You know?

    Besides, just as with the iPods you can do it yourself. And it isn't even that hard. In time there will be batteries and there will be a special tool as well.

    These guys are already on it: http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.com/#iphone
    http://forums.imore.com/e?link=http%...token=6qJLSKXs
    01-16-2007 06:30 PM
  22. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    You do realize you can walk into an Apple store, apple certified repair shop, and probably even a cingular store and get it replaced.
    You dont have to send it off anywhere. And since they have a replacement program for the iPod. I can only imagine they will have a system for the iPhone that is slighty different.

    For me, it isn't an issue. I dont carry extra batteries around. If it dies. It dies. I understand some people live on their phone and maybe contact business. Right now I don't. So I can't sympathize. But, I almost have never run my battery out completely. It lasts all day. Then I charge it if need be.

    I also don't talk on my phone for 5 hours straight.

    Even when the battery start to lose its charge. It typically isn't an instant thing where it just doesnt work anymore. So you wouldn't be SOL. You would have to be more conservative until you can take it in and have it replaced.

    Its really not hard. And I dont see it as an inconvienence. But that is me of course. But I think this issue is horribly overblown. Especially with the "You have to send it in" comments. You dont have to mail it to Apple. You simply don't. That is of course the only way you guys can convince someone it sucks, excluding the facts that is.
    This is almost the same as having to send it to Apple for service. Nice try.

    Speak for yourself! I can't stand batteries running out too fast and I DO buy replacement batteries if I use the device for long enough.

    And I never said the iPhone sucked, I wish people would quit saying that! I said it's not perfect, not that it sucked!! Palm is what sucks for almost the last 2 years and I've said that over 100 times on here I'm sure, but you choose to forget that I guess.

    Yes the iPhone is cool, but honestly I still get more excited at the TyTN specs.
    01-16-2007 06:54 PM
  23. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    If you are that busy that you can't take 30 minutes to get the battery replaced (which you would have a while to do as chances are the battery won't just quit, you should re-evaluate your life a bit.

    The phone isn't just doing to die. If you charge it, I am sure it will make it 2hrs to the store. I mean really. Come on.

    Besides, 30pin iPod connector equals in car charger. Boo hoo you have to be tied to something. Big whoop. When you arent talking it can be charging no?

    Apple has a good number of stores as well: http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/

    If you are in Africa, yeah you might be out of luck

    Besides, if you know the battery is wearing down get it replaced before you go.

    I dont carry batteries around. And I don't care really. If you need this, the device isnt for you. Complaining about it not having something isnt going to help the situation. Should of, could of, would of. You know?

    Besides, just as with the iPods you can do it yourself. And it isn't even that hard. In time there will be batteries and there will be a special tool as well.

    These guys are already on it: http://www.ipodbatteryfaq.com/#iphone
    http://forums.imore.com/e?link=http%...token=wZNgz9F0
    Is there a real 30 minute guarantee or is that an estimate on your part? I'd probably have to leave the phone there and come back later. That can be considered an inconvenience.
    01-16-2007 07:06 PM
  24. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    The iPod. Why do people hate it? It doesnt support all the codecs, DRM blah blah blah. Consumers don't care. People don't care it doesn't play DiVx or Xvid. They buy it on the iTunes store. THat is the model that works. An end to end solution that works. Not, "heres the player figure it out" why do you think Microsoft jumped on that bandwagon instead of doing what Creative and the others do? That model doesn't work.
    The iPod and Zune(YUCK) models only work because people are turning into DRM sheeps. Cowon and Archos are actually the real way to go if you want real freedom over your own music and video. Oh yeah, and Creative sounds better than the iPod. Their drawback, they support too much crappy DRM WMA, and not enough independent formats except for MP3.

    I'm not anti-Apple. But just because all aren't 100% enthused with a product may not mean they're anti-anything, just a skeptical consumer.
    01-16-2007 07:21 PM
  25. oalvarez's Avatar
    just to clarify that blackberry batteries are not poor as one user points out: of all of the ones that i have owned and used, those that my spouse have owned and used, have never failed in the battery department (have never needed a replacement nor have i ever experienced battery issues.). then, count the hundreds of people that i know who use them (finance industry types) and i can't count one who ever complained of a battery problem. blackberries work, they typically don't have goofy battery issues like some of the Treos i've owned. now, consider all of the Ipods i've owned (4 in total) and those that are owned by my friends and i still can't recall or point to ONE single complaint attributed to the battery. what am i saying? i just don't think there is going to be an issue related to the quality/worthiness/longevity of the battery on the new iphone (not to be mistaken with the amount of battery charge/duration/life). just like the treo 680 if not all others (short battery life), users tend to keep them charged at work or in the car or the like, but i would think users who "carry a spare battery" are far and few between. i personally think carrying a spare battery is nonsense given that any device should at least make it through a workday (if it can't, it's not meant for real work purposes, in my eyes), but hey, that's just me.
    01-16-2007 07:30 PM
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